Standardised Rail Response Test - is there one yet ?

M

mamics

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After all these years of technological developments in pool - why isn't there a standard (non-subjective / non-variable) test for rail / cushion response ?

Maybe its not really relevant / important at the end of the day ?

I like the cloth speed test (Bob Jewetts ?) - 7 seconds from rail to 'just touches the rail' for tourny spec cloth on a 9 footer - easy & standardised.

I think my rails are somewhat below ideal - but would love to check via some standard test - and then see if I could improve them somehow if they are indeed below par...

Cheers.
 
mamics said:
After all these years of technological developments in pool - why isn't there a standard (non-subjective / non-variable) test for rail / cushion response ?

Maybe its not really relevant / important at the end of the day ?

I like the cloth speed test (Bob Jewetts ?) - 7 seconds from rail to 'just touches the rail' for tourny spec cloth on a 9 footer - easy & standardised.

I think my rails are somewhat below ideal - but would love to check via some standard test - and then see if I could improve them somehow if they are indeed below par...

Cheers.
Click to expand...

No Stimpf meter yet....spelling may be incorrect.
 
even if there was a standard test for them, what use would it be? pool room owners and barbox route owners aint going to start switching out equipment to get their equipment up to some new defined standard. and new tables account for less than 5% of the tables out there, 19/20 tables is a old POS thats been recovered 20 times and moved 6.

If there was a way to measure rails then that mite be of some use some how, but even that can vary depending on the weather,

to many tests and numbers-play pool instead, all this technical stuff is over shadowing the game.
 
mamics said:
After all these years of technological developments in pool - why isn't there a standard (non-subjective / non-variable) test for rail / cushion response ?

Maybe its not really relevant / important at the end of the day ?

I like the cloth speed test (Bob Jewetts ?) - 7 seconds from rail to 'just touches the rail' for tourny spec cloth on a 9 footer - easy & standardised.

I think my rails are somewhat below ideal - but would love to check via some standard test - and then see if I could improve them somehow if they are indeed below par...

Cheers.
Click to expand...
There actually is and has been used for like 100 years. I used to have one. Although far from sophisticated it worked. It was a small wood ramp about 8 inches long and 2 inches wide. It had a groove on the ramp part and a platform at the top for the ball. You would set it away from the rail and put a ball on the platform. Then just tip the ball onto the ramp and it would roll down the ramp and into the rail and rebound. I think they used to use them when tables had T-rails that bolted on from the sides. In actually have an antique table in storage that is T-rail and I used to have it set up. It was a crazy table, every rail was different.

I think the old timers would adjust the rails till they got the desired result. Todays tables are made such that once assembled the rails and the playing surface are practically one piece the way they are bolted together. You can easily make a rail tester like I described, It works very well for testing the speed of the table. If you put a couple of books of matches under the front of the ramp to slow down the roll of the ball it also works good for detecting roll off's in the table.
 
macguy said:
There actually is and has been used for like 100 years. I used to have one. Although far from sophisticated it worked. It was a small wood ramp about 8 inches long and 2 inches wide. It had a groove on the ramp part and a platform at the top for the ball. You would set it away from the rail and put a ball on the platform. Then just tip the ball onto the ramp and it would roll down the ramp and into the rail and rebound. I think they used to use them when tables had T-rails that bolted on from the sides. In actually have an antique table in storage that is T-rail and I used to have it set up. It was a crazy table, every rail was different.

I think the old timers would adjust the rails till they got the desired result. Todays tables are made such that once assembled the rails and the playing surface are practically one piece the way they are bolted together. You can easily make a rail tester like I described, It works very well for testing the speed of the table. If you put a couple of books of matches under the front of the ramp to slow down the roll of the ball it also works good for detecting roll off's in the table.
Click to expand...

If there was only one kind of cushion, one kind of cloth, and only one rail design, that might work, but today...forget it, not a chance.
 
The roll-off-a-ramp test has been a longtime standard, but doesn't seem accurate because the speed of the cloth affects the speed of the cb, which in turn causes it to bounce more or less far from the rail.

I think maybe start from a certain point, using a certain CB, and then attempt to clock speed with the radar. With consistent speed and distance you'll have somewhat cleaner results though the rail may have dead spots to worry about.

Might be tough with the break speed app because it needs to hear two clicks, but the impact of the ball on the rail will be too quiet. Maybe set it up where you hit cb into two wired object balls pointed at a certain spot on the rail? Probably overthinking it.
 
All your tables are going to play different because every variation in cloth and and rubber and angle. Plus, temperature and humidity will make the same table and set-up vary from day to day.

3 Cushion players go to the corner, shot with their normal running enlish through their spot on the long rail to 3 cushion return to the other corner, and watch to see if it runs short or long that day, and adjust their systems accordingly.

If your rubber or set-up is old, you probably need new. Not to worry, if you are in the US (I know you are not) there's like 3 or 4 guys that can do that for you. Hurry up and pick one before the AZ lynch-mob scares them all away.

Kevin
 
John Novak said:
The speed of the table cushions should be such that placement of a ball on the head spot,
shooting through the foot spot, using center ball english, with a level cue and firm stroke,
the ball must travel a minimum of 4 to 4 ½ lengths of the table without jumping.

http://home.bca-pool.com/associations/7744/files/BCAEquipmentSpecifications_2008.pdf
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I think you should be able to get five lengths. That is, shooting from the spot, you should be able to hit the far cushion three times. 4 lengths for a 20MPH shots is not good.
 
Standards

They have general standards for surfaces in lots of sports. Golf, baseball, football all come to mind. All arenas and courses have general guidelines met, but there is no "the grass must be 31/32" long with a follicle density of x"

As long as the rails on a table are all the same type and cut, with no dead spots, then it really doesn't matter.

When you're playing against a dead facing in One Pocket, that's a different hustle, er... story
 
Thanx guys - lots of good info / ideas.

I like the idea of the ramp but its too slow methinks - cloth speed would massively affect the result between tables (unless we all had clean, new 860 - apples would be apples)

The BCA spec is fine - but what is a firm stroke exactly ? (not very objective / scientific)

Radar guns - perfect - that sure would work well - if only we all had one or easy access to one ! :-)

Yes lots of other variables - rail type, rubber type, bolt down method etc. the combination of all these things combined is exactly what the rail (speed) test would give a result on. (only for speed response - not accuracy / angle response - which is another, and probably equally or more important thing)

I think I like the idea of every table is different, and changes every day with humidity, age etc. All part of the game to be able to adjust to these changes / differences ?

I guess the million dollar question for me is would my rails be more lively with new, high quality rubber ? (or is it my rail design / composition / bolt down method that is my limiting factor in the speed of my cushions ?) My rubber is at least 5 years old, but hasnt seen the light of day all that time. When there was no cloth on my table - a very slow roll test into the rail seemed very good / responsive.

Proof of the pudding would be pay for new rails & see if they are better - but I want to have my cake & eat it too - dont wanna spend the $$ on new rubber if it wont be of benefit. ;-P

Thanx all.
Cheers.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think you should be able to get five lengths. That is, shooting from the spot, you should be able to hit the far cushion three times. 4 lengths for a 20MPH shots is not good.
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Bob thats why it says a mininum of 4 to 4 1/2 lengths. It doesnt put a max on it. As long as the cue ball doesnt jump when it hits the first rail.I have tried this in the past and got 5 lengths however it was borderline as to it leaving the table surface slightly after hitting the first rail
 
I made a stimpmeter for a pool table in 2009. Here is a link. There was no real interest and it has not been standardized. I designed it in such a way that you can standardize on your table and use it other places.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/PBReview/Stimpmeter1.htm

I found that tables play differently based on the age of the cloth, type of rails, humidity, etc. None-the-less, the meter is a reliable indicator of how a table plays relative to "your" table.

I think that anyone who wanted to make a commercial device only needs to have some standard for comparison. Select one you like such as ten - twenty Gold Crown fives and then mark the average distance on a meter and all other tables would be compared to this standard.

My experience leads me to the conclusion that such a device is reliable.

Except in a gross way, I doubt that a stimpmeter would address the need for rails question because there are too many interrelated variables. I suppose that if you could check only cloth speed with the stimpmeter (roll down the ramp and not hit a rail) and then use a rail bounce test minus cloth speed you could arrive at some estimate under standard humidity conditions.
 
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I wanted to make a device similar to an Izod Impact Tester. It would mount a ball at the end of a pendulum, and bounce it into the cushion. The ball would then bounce off the cushion and return close to the starting point. The difference between the starting point and ending point would be the energy lost to the cushion. This would be measured either mechanically or electronically by the testing device.

Such a device would probably only be practical to someone designing tables, and fooling around with rail designs. Or to pool nuts with engineering day jobs too :)

Anyway, it never got past a couple of paper sketches.

Izod Impact Tester:
Screen Shot 2013-05-29 at 10.40.43 AM.jpg
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think you should be able to get five lengths. That is, shooting from the spot, you should be able to hit the far cushion three times. 4 lengths for a 20MPH shots is not good.
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lots of tables in Germany the cushions are to weak to get that long, they bottom out so no matter how hard you hit it it rolls about the same. the other night i played on a GC4 that was perfect-that was nice
 
A few more thoughts.

I tried and found that loosening a rail bolt changed the amount of bounce.

In addition, I also found that some tables have a different amount of bounce depending on the location that is used. That is, it might bounce better in the middle of a rail than at the end of the rail.

The same is true for cloth speed. It can vary depending upon how the cloth was installed. When cloth is tighter in one place than in another the speed picks up where it is tight.

Cloth speed based on "poor?" installation seemed to be an important factor and one that is not often discussed. Some "home" tables had more consistent speeds than some of the commercial installations. I guess it depends on who installed and the care with which the installation was made.

BTW, if you use Bob's table speed test do it in a few different places and then take the average. Speeds may not be the same from opposite ends of the table.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
I think you should be able to get five lengths. That is, shooting from the spot, you should be able to hit the far cushion three times. 4 lengths for a 20MPH shots is not good.
Click to expand...

OK - this is interesting - yes, hmm... I just need to work out how hard I am hitting the ball when I do this test. (I'm hitting at pretty much my max power - but it may or may not be more than 20MPH)

I think that smartphone break app may be of use to get an idea of my average max break speed - can then work out my average number of rails when hitting at max speed - might be a half decent way to work out rail speed performance at high speeds. (break speed = hitting with a firm stroke ?)

or even get a standard MPH measure of what a "firm stroke" is using the break app ?

Note - I dont have issues with jumping (or even slight jumping) off the first bottom rail - but my rail is deffo doing some serious work bouncing that ball back at that speed - bit of a thud - but not an ugly cracking noise or anything...

Would be great to have a semi-standard test for rail speed response at break speeds - I'm curious to know what an extra AU$8,000 (Gold Crown V) would have yielded me in table speed (cushion speed) v's my AU$3,600 Cheap Asian Special... :-O

Cheers.
 
Wow - 20MPH is FAST ! :-O

I got the predator break app - I couldnt even clock a speed over 20 MPH !
(Is that laughter I hear ?? :-D) LOL
My average for my fastest & hardest break shots was prolly around the 18 MPH mark.
I then tried the up & down the table tests again at (hopefully) similar speeds (my poor foot rail !) - I was always getting at least 4 rails - usually around 4&1/2 rails - couple of times was 1/2 a diamond off making 5 rails.

This warms my heart... IF a 'firm stroke' as mentioned in the BCA table specs equates to around 18 MPH ?

What do you guys get (how many rails) for the 'up & down test' @ around 18 MPH ?

Note: The predator app sometimes gave me a reading of 10 or 11 MPH when clearly it was nowhere near as slow as that... Hmmm its a handy app, but it doesnt seem even close to 100% reliable ?

Thanx
Cheers.
 
So, on a 7ft table, if the cue ball is hit hard enough that it travels 7 times the length of the table back and forth, would that mean the cushions are TO lively?...or that the nose height was to low?...or that the sub-rail design was somewhat incorrect as to make the cushions play to lively?...there are way to many variables to simply perform this back and forth length of the table test by it's self. I think a more accurate testing of the cushions involve the use of all the cushions combined, such as shooting the cue ball in an attempt to bank it 9 rails around the table, which involves all the cushions on the table. If you can't reach the end 9th rail bank, the table is playing slow. If you bank out short off every rail, you won't reach 9 rails. If you bank long, the 8th rail will end up being the end rail where you started from, the 9th will be the side rail after the 8th bank. A perfect playing table will bank 5 times back and forth length wise, and 9 rails around, with the 9th cushion being the end rail you started from. This test will end up with the same results if the table cushions are playing right, on a 7', 8', or 9ft. I've even done the same test on the Diamond 10' ProAm...ending up with the same results, perfect flow of the cushions. The size of the table don't mean a cue ball is going to travel further on a 7'ft vs a 10'ft, because the cushions all provide a certain amount of speed decay off every cushion, the distance between cushion speed is determined by the type of cloth on the table. So if a cue ball can be banked 9 cushions on a 10'ft, it would make sense that it can be banked 9 cushions on a 7ft....yet that don't always add up...because of so many other factors that have control over the outcome. This test really only applies when the cloth is new, as to many other things decay the flow of the cushions and speed of the cloth when the cloth is aged.

Glen
 
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