Yeah, that and the fact that they were tossing balls into 5 inch pockets.
It does amaze me to see modern players that never play 14.1 running 100 balls simply because they are so completely accurate and never miss.
Straight Pool- Run equivalent to old equipment???
- Thread starter atthecat
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Yeah, that and the fact that they were tossing balls into 5 inch pockets.
It does amaze me to see modern players that never play 14.1 running 100 balls simply because they are so completely accurate and never miss.
I see the same thing. Most if not all of todays players are 9 ball players that are used to taking very hard shots. So they take the same chances playing straight pool. The old time straight pool players would play safe rather then risk a low percentage shot because they know at the top level of play that missed shot could give the other guy a chance to run a bunch.
Equal Pockets
Lets assume 4.5" Pockets and just focus on the cloth. Jim Rempe and I had this conversation a few years back when I played at his home. Jimmy said that when Simonis and the other new style cloth came out that there was a debate as to whether to stick with the Mali or go to the newer cloth for professional tournament play. Jimmy wanted to stick with the Mali because it favored his style of play and he had a power stroke (You had to when you played on Mali 70/30 to get the balls to move). He said Allen Hopkins wanted the new cloth because it favored his shorter more compact stroke.
Having said that if you take professionals out of the equation and just talk about average B or C players I think they would die on the old style cloth. Players (Not Professionals) today do not have the power stroke to play on the old Mali. Simonis has taken that out of the equation.
Lets assume 4.5" Pockets and just focus on the cloth. Jim Rempe and I had this conversation a few years back when I played at his home. Jimmy said that when Simonis and the other new style cloth came out that there was a debate as to whether to stick with the Mali or go to the newer cloth for professional tournament play. Jimmy wanted to stick with the Mali because it favored his style of play and he had a power stroke (You had to when you played on Mali 70/30 to get the balls to move). He said Allen Hopkins wanted the new cloth because it favored his shorter more compact stroke.
Having said that if you take professionals out of the equation and just talk about average B or C players I think they would die on the old style cloth. Players (Not Professionals) today do not have the power stroke to play on the old Mali. Simonis has taken that out of the equation.
Well, the WPA (world Pool-Billiard Association) is trying. And they do have "Tournament Table & Equipment Specifications."
The relevant part of those specs for this thread is found in "9. Pocket Openings and Measurements" and reads as follows:
The pocket openings for pool tables are measured between opposing cushion noses where the direction changes into the pocket (from pointed lip to pointed lip). This is called mouth.
Corner Pocket Mouth: between 4.5 [11.43 cm] and 4.625 inches [11.75 cm]
Side Pocket Mouth: between 5 [12.7 cm] and 5.125 inches [13.0175 cm]
*The mouth of the side pocket is traditionally ½ inch [1.27 cm] wider than
the mouth of the corner pocket.
Corner Pocket Mouth: between 4.5 [11.43 cm] and 4.625 inches [11.75 cm]
Side Pocket Mouth: between 5 [12.7 cm] and 5.125 inches [13.0175 cm]
*The mouth of the side pocket is traditionally ½ inch [1.27 cm] wider than
the mouth of the corner pocket.
So -- corner pockets 4 1/2" to 4 5/8". Sides 5" to 5 1/8".
I prefer slower cloth for 14.1
I find straight pool to be easier on slower and worn cloth. I find slick cloth less predictable which matters a lot when you play precise position. I imagine breaking out the pack is easier on faster cloth, but it's also easier to lose your cue ball.
Faster cloth is better suited to 9 ball for sure, and I think both speeds of cloth are fine for 8 ball (like the IPT 8 ball championships).
I find straight pool to be easier on slower and worn cloth. I find slick cloth less predictable which matters a lot when you play precise position. I imagine breaking out the pack is easier on faster cloth, but it's also easier to lose your cue ball.
Faster cloth is better suited to 9 ball for sure, and I think both speeds of cloth are fine for 8 ball (like the IPT 8 ball championships).
For the life of me I can't remember where I saw this but I did, years ago, and never forgot it. It had something to do with regulation pool tables, as alot of people assume regulation means a certain length. According to what I read regulation simply implies certain criteria like playing surface twice as long as it is wide, playing surface height 31" +/-1" from the floor, corner pockets 5" wide +/-1/2" at the points, and side pockets 5 1/2, +/-1/2" at the points. I'm sure Glen Sullivan has more reliable info than my memory but I still think those are the specs.
Everything you say is true, and I also enjoy watching today's great players. I'm still holding out hope Charlie Williams will sell dvd's of the world championships although that seems increasingly unlikely.
When I refer to knowledge of the old timers I'm talking about guys like Irving Crane who practiced safeties for 30 minutes a day and I believe he won the world championship one year with a high run of something like 22 balls. You can be a straight shooter but if you are frozen against the stack every time you come to the table it doesn't matter, nor does the size of the pockets matter if you don't have a shot.
More recently Martin, DiLiberto and Sigel are examples of guys who had a complete game.
How does nap cloth demand a powerful stroke? Power is what controls the rock Whack at it and your cue ball goes all over the place.....stopping your chances of making another shot and staying in line. On nap a banger can yam a ball, it goes straight for the hole, and he still gets position because the nap takes over.
The game of 14.1 is so easy compared to one pocket (what they play now days) because the objective is to move the cueball as minimally as possible----nap help with this. Fast, clean cloth on pockets with proper cuts take a powerful stroke to move the cueball properly.
I think you could probably double it: 4" compared to 5". Compared to 4 1/2" pockets... maybe a third. Just a stab.
Lou Figueroa
One of the things that makes 14.1 harder nowadays is the faster cloth AND the newer balls, typically all polished up. Yes, the balls come apart more easily, but when I'm running a lot of balls it is because I can maneuver the cue ball a scooch here or a smidge there. With more "slippery" conditions it's harder to do that predictably.
Lou Figueroa
Having played a bit of both I would say that, for me, this is not so. They're different skills sets, but I think what you'd find is that most good 14.1 players can play a pretty decent game of 1pocket. Not necessarily so the other way around.
What was the old story about Fats calling up his backer for more dough having just lost eight straight games of 1pocket to Mosconi: This guys don't know nothin' about 1pocket. He just keeps running eight and out.
Lou Figueroa
After reading about mosconi's fib about quitting tired, and a few threads about how pro's say things because they are bind by contract, I am not as willing to accept what fats said about mosconi to be a matching example to your first paragraph. I don't think it is entirely true that 14.1 players are more apt to play good one pocket than the reverse. I think some of the reasons onepocket players may not play 14.1 as well as 14.1 players is game tempo. They just don't want to play that game anymore. Rules have changed drastically to make this game more offensive and exciting every inning..just like every other sport has evolved.
A prime example would be someone like wilt chamberlain. He was regarded as one of the most talented athletes during his era scoring 100 in one game. But that is nothing these days. There was never a guy jumping over your head dunking on wilt...he never had to deal with that. Every team these days have someone that can do that...maybe three. Kobe scored 70 in one half. Conditions bred that kind of talent.
The main thing that may help with one pocket that 14.1 can cross over is reading stacks and playing the short game. Everything else is foreign to 14.1. Running 8 and out is hard to do. No man should be said runs 8 and out more than Efren. And even he dosen't get 8 and out on you MOST of the time.
We both know people are full of it more than they will be true to you...so I can't take what fats said about mosconi to be completely true. It's not like mosconi just walked into a game of one pocket and wooped on everyone. He may have played it before fats knew about it...who knows.
I think many 14.1 players have mastered this particular stroke. If you look at all the guys from that era, there mechanics are very similar.
Scooch-smidge! Sir you are a straight pool player. Thats how you do it in tight racks.
The smaller the hole, the more difficult to do everything. Can't imagine higher runs with 4'' pockets compared to 5''. This is especially true when breaking open the stack and your swing speed is greatly increased.
Do you really think there is no regulation size just because you never
heard of it?
The info used to be in rule books - find one from the 50s or so.
Brunswick used to supply templates for pockets and cushion height
and angles.
As to your original point - the old 100% wool cloth was just as fast as
Simonis.
The undersized pockets wouldn't have slowed the playes of the 30s
and 40s down too much. Consider the World Championships in those
days were played on 5 x 10s with 4 1/2 inch pockets.
Moscon and Crane both had runs in the low 300s on them.
Willie esp. just never had to make difficult shots.
Dale
55 in the second half; 81 in the game.
I can see why you might call it a fib, I prefer to think of it as the early signs of his Alzheimer's. Or at least giving a great champion the benefit of the doubt. And tempo has nothing to do with it. I know there are those that claim the pace of the game (1pocket) is an issue, getting them out of stroke and all, but once you pass a certain threshold as a player that idea goes out the window.
And maybe we'll never really know about Fats and Mosconi, other than Willie frequently saying he hated 1pocket -- he thought it was a hustler's gimmick game.
Lou Figueroa
Well you, Sir, er, Man, gotta be one too to appreciate that fine distinction. I know that when I running them I can move the cue ball within a ball's width or less thataway or thisaaway.
Lou Figueroa