Search him on players list...if that's a pro salary, he's eating out of trash cans.
Streaming Players & Problems
- Thread starter Fast Lenny
- Start date
Search him on players list...if that's a pro salary, he's eating out of trash cans.
Why do you think or feel this way???
Compared to movie ticket prices
Compared to concert tickets
Compared to sport event tickets
Compared to theater tickets
Only thing cheaper is TV. Plus, TV is that big cable bill every month!
I buy streams all the time because I enjoy them. I am selective because some matches are boring and un-educational. I am not learning from it.
Kd
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I said JMO, and you have yours.
I don't buy theater, sports or concert tickets...and buy movie tickets less than 6 times a year. I don't play anymore, so no need to buy PPV just to learn. Johnnyt
Very interesting thread that caught my attention. Thanks to Lenny for kicking this one off with a detailed explanation of what goes into streaming an event. In the above post he goes into some of the details of putting together a tournament and what a promoter must do to pull off a successful one. It is for all these reasons that I have no desire to put together any more major tournaments - to much work for too little return, with a lot of grief thrown in for good measure.
Let's be honest here, we are all involved (in one way or another) in what is still considered a minor sport, so minor that most mainstream media does not see fit to cover it in any way. It doesn't matter that many millions play pool on a regular basis both here and abroad. Only in China (and to a lesser degree in the Philippines), where it is not such a minor sport, are pool players given any real recognition, and the compensation that goes with it. Did you know that the top Asian women players are making a healthy six figures a year, thanks to prize money, sponsorship and endorsements!
We all labor over how that equation can be changed and so far have not found the answer. There is yet to be a fairy Godmother fall out of the sky and rescue pool. It is what it is. Our television coverage in the USA has shrunk to near zero, with only an isolated event being shown once or twice a year. Without streaming and Youtube airings of international tournaments (China) few people would know that professional pool even exists!
Simply put, Pool needs streaming and the players need it even more. The more the better! Video streaming came along just in time to save our sport from extinction. It is a growing avenue for sponsors to show their products and get exposure to a much larger audience that is not available any other way. The billiard media reaches far less people and is predominately aimed at those who already are entrenched in our sport. Streaming and the resulting coverage, as Lenny so eloquently explained, is a way for people outside the billiard mainstream to get a glimpse at what makes our sport special.
The argument put forth by a player for direct compensation reminds me of a terrible debacle that derailed our sport some thirty odd years ago. A wonderful promoter (and player) named Richie Florence had managed to get Budweiser and Caesars World to co-sponsor major pool tournaments in the early 1980's. These were all $100,000 plus events, good prize money for the time, actually greater than what pro bowlers were making then. Earl won $33,000 plus a $15,000 car in 1982 at Caesars Tahoe. All of Richie's events were being televised on ESPN with feature coverage of the final three matches. After several successful tournaments and a chance for expansion into more markets, his tour arrived at Caesars Palace in 1984. I was the tournament director. This was also a 100K+ event that Earl won, this time getting a mere $25,000. He beat Terry Bell (the APA founder) in the finals, after beating Dallas West for the hot seat. Terry then beat Dallas in the losers bracket final to get his chance at Earl. All these matches were taped for later television viewing. But then something funny happened. The players refused to sign the releases for the shows to be aired on TV. They wanted a cut of the television revenue! They were especially peeved that most of these shows were being aired repeatedly in reruns. Bad decision! They had gotten some very bad advice from a few people that had a hidden agenda, which I will not elaborate on now as it is not germane to this conversation.
I called a friend of mine, a man named Jim Davis, while all this was going to ask his advice. Jim was an award winning television director, who had directed shows like the Ed Sullivan show, Bob Hope specials, the Oscars several times, etc. He explained to me that athletes in other major sports did not get a direct payment/piece of any television revenue. What they got was EXPOSURE! And lots of it. Jim told me that's what made them into sports STARS, the more frequent the exposure the better. He went on to add that the pool players should be grateful for all the reruns each show gets. Better for them and their careers to be seen by as many people as possible. Unfortunately the players didn't heed my warning and never signed the releases. The Caesars Palace event never aired on ESPN and Richie Florence was finished as a promoter. Maybe somewhere there is a lesson to be learned by the present day pool players hoping to make a living from this sport. I hope so for their sake.
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Thank You, Jay Helfert! Thank You, Lenny.
American Billiard Radio
I just got off the phone after a rather lengthy interview on this subject with American Billiard Radio that will air this evening.
I actually suggested that Mark Cantrill interview Lenny before me, but Mark said that he already had Lenny on last week to discuss the Wyoming Open event. Sheesh, it's not like you don't have to hear Mark every week....LOL.
Anyway, I hope I haven't pissed too many people off or forgotten to make enough pertinent points, but that's how live radio goes. It's also taken a little time for me to have some clarity on the subject, since information is coming in so quickly and there's a lot of different points of view.
Should be up around 9pm/PST
www.AmericanBilliardRadio.com
I just got off the phone after a rather lengthy interview on this subject with American Billiard Radio that will air this evening.
I actually suggested that Mark Cantrill interview Lenny before me, but Mark said that he already had Lenny on last week to discuss the Wyoming Open event. Sheesh, it's not like you don't have to hear Mark every week....LOL.
Anyway, I hope I haven't pissed too many people off or forgotten to make enough pertinent points, but that's how live radio goes. It's also taken a little time for me to have some clarity on the subject, since information is coming in so quickly and there's a lot of different points of view.
Should be up around 9pm/PST
www.AmericanBilliardRadio.com
I dont have PayPal or a account i can use to buy live streams..(cash is king).....but rest asured.....if i ever get to personally meet lenny ,jcin or any of the other serious streamers that have given me hundreds of hrs watching free matches.....dinner ,drinks and party favors are on me.
I hope i get to honor that promise. (Ill be at the expo fri and sat night btw)
Thank you guys.
I hope i get to honor that promise. (Ill be at the expo fri and sat night btw)
Thank you guys.
I have streamed thousands of hours of pool and much of it with no compensation and just laying out money every two years for equipment which thankfully in the past people contributed to. Now I generate some revenue which I take some of that money and upgrade after about 2 years or so. If an event for example pays me $500 for a weekend event and I spend 30 hours streaming and 10 hours before and after with promotion and other stuff we are at 50 hours so $12.50 an hour but you have a day of travel before and after the event so your wage would become even lower as more time is invested. You also need to minus monies for the equipment fund which will come fast when you need to upgrade stuff.
Just curious , all streamers operate under this promoter/streamer arrangement ? What about room owner/streamer business dealings . I thought some streamers solicit sponsors on their own and use those funds for themselves and may not charge the room owner for streaming so that he can earn money this way and from PPV.
Not all do work under that arrangement. The sponsor arrangement might work for some too if they get enough sponsors a good one. I believe with the PPV the room owner might get a piece of it. I have stream sponsors and contributors in the past who have helped with cost of equipment, travel and other things when an event didn't have the budget for me but I still wanted to do it. Mainly for me it is on the promoter to pay my cost which usually if the event is a good event they can obtain the monies from sponsors they gain from having a live stream plus they want the matches recorded and put online to get the event more exposure.
If the event is big enough with enough big names maybe a room owner wouldn't have to pay for a streamer because the streamer could get his end from sponsorship monies but from my experience its not a good way to go about it. Most sponsors with the big money will sponsor the event as a whole and then the promoter makes you a part of the package. Streaming makes the package more attractive and is a good selling point. Most sponsors expect coverage of the event or will likely not be a part of it unlike in the past.
I believe we can't go backwards and if events weren't streamed you could read about the results as opposed to seeing them live and look at pictures of the event and maybe see a banner hanging on a wall or sponsors would be mentioned in an article. Free streaming is the best thing for sponsors in pool IMO and exposure for an event, PPV limits the audience but for certain events I believe it works fine.
I was not always open minded about the PPV side in the past but believe for big tournament events free is the way to go and for the invitational smaller fields then PPV is the way. I just like more people having eyes on our game, the players and the events along with those sponsors who support it.
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Sometimes the players can be there own worse enemy and not see the big picture. Thanks for taking the time to write this as its enlightening and like you said maybe they will learn from the past mistakes and realize that streaming is the only real coverage they are getting that is live and drawing an audience.
I believe players and streamers should work together better including myself. From now on if a player has sponsors and comes to me during there match to promote them on the stream I am willing to do that letting viewers know the players cue, case, chalk or whatever sponsor they have on air. Maybe a pitch is to get X amount of money from their sponsor if they get on the stream or make it to a hot seat or finals match.
Thx for the reply. In lean times such as now i think the players deserve some kind of compensation if they appear on the stream , a free meal , or a night at a hotel , especially if the streamer is charging to see the tape of the matches , either online or selling dvd's.
For me my streams are always free for people to watch online and no charge to watch it after the fact. I used to do the DVD thing of matches alittle bit offering a handful and they were time consuming and didn't generate enough sales to be bothered with it so I don't waste my time.
I think the players if they could be in control of all the content somehow could have an online billiard channel that was a membership site where all streamers uploaded content to it so it would be a good value for members. Most of us put the content on YouTube for people to watch for free so the value of pool matches is not there and has changed since there is so much free content.
I know the viewers love the free stuff but some of the players do not because they don't want to be devalued so to say. I just know that streaming brings the players and events exposure, money added coming from sponsors. Players need to be savvy enough to go the sponsors they have or new ones and get money and say you only need to pay me if I get on the stream or pay me more if I get on the stream and get your name showcased or mentioned. I had Mike Massey ask me this past week to mention Meucci cues and his Sure Stroke Tool and I did happily even putting up the Meucci logo and his Sure Stroke Tools website and image. I will do this for any players who comes to me and wants when they are playing a match and don't expect anything as I want to help players.
I am there to do a job for the promoter who gets the money together for the players, I provide a service putting the sponsors on the streams and capturing the matches for them to be put online and get more exposure for the event and sponsors. I am not much different then a photographer who might be paid or sponsored to go to an event and take photos so those photos can be added to writeups giving exposure to the event.
Streamers and photographers who are paid to be there by an event who wants the coverage don't owe the players because we are capturing their image, the event already pays the added money out to the players. It would be like a O'Dell going to the photographer who took the picture of the catch and saying he wants to be compensated, it doesn't work that way. I think to solve the problem all players will be signing contracts with an entry so employees like myself and other streamers and photographers are protected since we are just there doing a gig.
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OLD MEUCCI
Registered
Players
Players should be payed!
Players should be payed!
They are paid by added money and ppv kickbacks.
He just won the Amateur event at the SBE
Yeah. The guy going off that he was a top tier professional deserving of royal treatment, snuck in and stole an amateur event.
Pure class. Lol
That's just beautiful.
Using your argument, "Life's not fair", perhaps Shane should quit griping, realize there are a number of players who perform at or above his level and play or withdraw from streamed tournaments.
Sponsors make choices about supporting players based on the player's exposure and talent. No exposure, few offers from sponsors.
Without Organization,Players Have No Legitimacy.
When Pool Players have an organization that supports their work as an Entertainer,i.e. Screen Actors Guild/American Federation of Radio and Television Artists and a structure of Producers(On the Rail, PoolActionTV,etc.) with Directors(Lenny,Ray Hansen,etc.) that work systematically together,then you will see the possibility for rewards all the way through.
Forget the ridiculous notion of Pool Players as Athletes. As Jay Helfert said,think Celebrity.Exposure is what makes Stars.
Actors receive residual checks for movies they were in years ago when they are aired for use by commercial enterprises(Netflix,Hulu,Red Box,Cable/Sat.. It took years to get there, but ask any Actor who gets that check what it took as a non residual Background Actor.
Right now, there is no leg to stand on.You would think the players at all of these events and EXPO's would get together and collaborate about such a possibility?
Do not look to the Billiard Industry for any solutions. You will have to drag them kicking and screaming to such a successful idea. They will come,only because they will make money doing it.
I watched some of Lenny's Stream from Arizona this weekend. Thank You for doing the work that made it possible.
When Pool Players have an organization that supports their work as an Entertainer,i.e. Screen Actors Guild/American Federation of Radio and Television Artists and a structure of Producers(On the Rail, PoolActionTV,etc.) with Directors(Lenny,Ray Hansen,etc.) that work systematically together,then you will see the possibility for rewards all the way through.
Forget the ridiculous notion of Pool Players as Athletes. As Jay Helfert said,think Celebrity.Exposure is what makes Stars.
Actors receive residual checks for movies they were in years ago when they are aired for use by commercial enterprises(Netflix,Hulu,Red Box,Cable/Sat.. It took years to get there, but ask any Actor who gets that check what it took as a non residual Background Actor.
Right now, there is no leg to stand on.You would think the players at all of these events and EXPO's would get together and collaborate about such a possibility?
Do not look to the Billiard Industry for any solutions. You will have to drag them kicking and screaming to such a successful idea. They will come,only because they will make money doing it.
I watched some of Lenny's Stream from Arizona this weekend. Thank You for doing the work that made it possible.
Bossman225
Registered
He's a really good player from new york. He's in about his early 30's, he's Hispanic I believe. I've met him a few times when I lived in florida. He's a very soft spoken guy
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