Stroking Straight / Dominant Eye

Incredibly astute...

SpiderWebComm said:
One eye is giving me the accurate info (non-dom eye) and the dominant eye is giving me a parallax view. So, I've found that my lateral stroke movement on the final stroke wasn't mechanical per se because if I would have stroked straight based on the parallax view I would have missed the ball. I think it was a sub-conscious adjustment because my brain wouldn't let me pull the trigger straight (so I could make the ball).

I throw the cue often, actually. What I found was that even if I stroked straight with the cue (by throwing it), I still had a problem finding true center ball on the CB. When only accepting information from my left eye, my cue aligns to the CB differently and now I'm stroking along my vision instead of across it. I think my cue WANTED to stroke down my vision line, but couldn't. It's prob like throwing a dart at a number you're seeing in your peripheral vision - your hand wants to throw down your sight line.

I hope that makes sense. What good is stroking straight if you stroke straight down the wrong line? I found by taking my left eye info, I can better align my body (to true CB center) and for me, pivot to true CB center. From this position, voila - my cue's tendency is to go straight instead of to the side a little bit.

I think there's a lot that has to do with your brain wanting to stroke to the line, but only if it allows you to make the shot. I think the move is to either force your dom eye into a dom position or do the opposite (which for me was the most comfy) which is force the non-dom eye slighly into a complete dominant position with your dom eye out of the picture completely. Anything in between is no-man's land.

Dave
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Incredibly astute -- and important. At least to those of us who are cursed with eyes that dont always work together properly. I have been aware of this for years, and it should be noted that when you line up and form an aim from either your left or rt eye (and no matter what you will always favor one eye or the other), and then during your delivery you lose that previous image and switch over to a dominant view from the other eye due to strain or fatigue or both, you will probably miss!
I have been trying to force my normally dominant rt eye to be my dominant pool eye for years -- moving the head to the left, etc. -- but fatigue, stress and age are making it more and more difficult, especially at night. I have decided to take the path of least resistance, as the Spiderman did. As long as my head wants to work out of the left eye I am going to surrender and cooperate with it. After 50 years I am going to give up the battle.

Beard
 
Scott Lee said:
In teaching for the past 30 years, it has become more evident that the cue tip moving off line is far more likely to be involved with grip pressure, than where your eyes are positioned over the cue. Your cue should be positioned where you perceive a straight line, whether it is under your 'dominant eye' or not. With a pendulum swing (with no elbow drop), your elbow is a hinge that moves in a dead straight line. The only problems that can create a nonlinear delivery of the cuetip are grip pressure (too much), or over flexing the bicep.
Keep it simple folks.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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You're missing half the picture and I'm not sure it is that simple. Physiologically, you're correct. However, if you're aligning your body to a perceived aim line that isn't correct - your brain (because it sees an illusion) identifies it and last-moment corrects. So, it's not "non-linear" delivery due to bad mechanics.... it's last-moment correction in order to sub-consciously make the ball (I think there's a big difference).

My grip pressure is super light. In fact, it's not odd to see me throw the cue completely through the CB (on some shots, I choose to let go of the butt end altogether). If you don't stroke down the correct sight line and stroke across it ever so slightly, it's possible for your brain to want to "steer" --- which isn't a physical problem (although it's caused by mal-alignment).

I've been experimenting with this for months and I'm confident what I've learned has helped me greatly, which is why I'm sharing in hopes it helps others. I think instructors should study this more -- the only thing I 100% know (because I don't know a lot) is that stroke steering isn't always do to grip pressure or bad arm mechanics. No matter how good your mechanics are, if your brain doesn't think you're making the ball - it'll give you a last-moment steer to help you out and there's nothing you can do about it unless you let go of the cue.
 
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I had a conversation with the well regarded pool instructor, Chan Whitt, regarding mechanics and alignment. I asked him if he favored cue under the dominant eye or centered between the eyes. He said the cue should be somewhere in between, that both eyes are responsible for aiming and that by favoring (but not aligned over) the dominant eye, you derive the benefits of being able to sight down the cue without the parallax issues of centered aiming, while still benefitting from a more global view.

In my case, I find that my correct aim point is as close to centered as I can be while still sighting down the shaft. If I get too close to centered, I get a parallaxed view of the shaft; too close to my dominant eye, the shot looks good, but I miss.
 
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I wanted to add, I definitely agree with Dave regarding the compensations the sub-conscious mind makes in adjusting for aiming errors by redirecting the body. I play golf and find the same thing.
 
JohnnyP said:
Thinking about getting a laser thingy.

http://www.laserstroke.com/index.html or the one by Joe Tucker.
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My first impression of that device is that it is a very practical idea, but the more I think about it, if it isn't set at "dead" 12 o'clock on your stick, or should your stick roll ever so EVER so slightly, the device is useless.

I believe correcting your stroke is largely a matter of muscle memory once you find your true sight line. It is often slightly uncomfortable to deliver the corrected stroke once you have discovered any misalignment you may have had.

Actually looking for this uncomfortable feeling, when you are down on your shot, can tell you that you are now in the corrected stance until your muscles become used to it.

One device I have been curious about (wish I could remember it's name) is the one where you put a slide jig on the table and place your stick in a pipe of sorts, then place it within the pins of the jig.

Too expensive to experiment with for me, but I think that kind of idea would better allow you to hone in on those muscle feelings and stance adjustments to correct things better than the laser light that would change with movement of the cue too much.
 
tedkaufman said:
I had a conversation with the well regarded pool instructor, Chan Whitt, regarding mechanics and alignment. I asked him if he favored cue under the dominant eye or centered between the eyes. He said the cue should be somewhere in between, that both eyes are responsible for aiming and that by favoring (but not aligned over) the dominant eye, you derive the benefits of being able to sight down the cue without the parallax issues of centered aiming, while still benefitting from a more global view.

In my case, I find that my correct aim point is as close to centered as I can be while still sighting down the shaft. If I get too close to centered, I get a parallaxed view of the shaft; too close to my dominant eye, the shot looks good, but I miss.
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I don't have my dominant eye directly over the cue--- my cue is also in between my eyes somewhat. What I'm saying is you have to be cognizant of the information received from each eye and whether it's straight-on info or parallax info.

EVERYONE sees differently. Some people don't even think they have a dominant eye. Others (such as myself) have a STRONG dominant eye. Comments like what Chan mentioned are too general to apply to all shooters. It's likely Chan's comment applies to up to 75% of all pool players - but definitely not me or Beard. Learning how you see is as important in pool (imo) as learning to stand correctly, bridge correctly or stroke straight. I've been playing pool for a while now and it's just recently that I'm learning how I REALLY see and how it affects the rest of my game.

To say "shoot with your visions center" just isn't correct for all shooters and can likely send a few people into many years of crap play. Everyone is different. I think instructors probably say blanket statements like that because "that's what they do." In the same light, I KNOW this thread doesn't apply to the majority of the people on this forum. A tremendous majority of pool players are not cross-dominant; therefore, they can't imagine how someone would have to tinker with what I've been forced to tinker with.

In conclusion, being cross-dominant (with a strong dominant eye) is a handicap as far as pool is concerned. It's something that has to be identified, managed and maintained over time. Otherwise, as Beard mentioned, the dominant eye fights to control and sends a bad image to the brain. If someone has a strong dominant eye, the "global view" is comprised of 75% of the dominant eye's data (at least, for me it is) and that "could" be coming from the wrong vector.
 
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JohnnyP said:
Watch Jean Balukas steer the cue as she realizes she's about to miss the nine.

She pulls the trigger at 8:00:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3TzCfXQ6XE&feature=related
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I'd probably guess everyone steers sub-consciously to some degree because it's impossible to be setup perfect. I think top players can be setup super-close to perfect, but I think true-perfect is an impossibility.

Here's a good read about eye dominance and the parallax issue in sports:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocular_dominance
 
So Spidey...

Does that mean, that your stroke hand is not ending in the same place every time you finish your stroke?

From what I've read, I get the impression that the warm up strokes appear to be going straight, and then on your final stroke, driving through the cue ball, is when your stoke goes off.

And then by focusing with a different eye, it then goes straight again?

This, to me, says you're not finishing your stroke in the same physical place every time.

Am I correct in this conclusion?
 
Ponytail said:
So Spidey...

Does that mean, that your stroke hand is not ending in the same place every time you finish your stroke?

From what I've read, I get the impression that the warm up strokes appear to be going straight, and then on your final stroke, driving through the cue ball, is when your stoke goes off.

And then by focusing with a different eye, it then goes straight again?

This, to me, says you're not finishing your stroke in the same physical place every time.

Am I correct in this conclusion?
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Not really. I think you're missing what I'm saying. My right eye delivers a strong parallax view of the shot. So, while I'm stroking and using the center of my vision as input, the majority of my vision is based on an incorrect line of sight. So, even though my practice strokes are straight, my brain wants to correct on the final stroke because it knows I can't make the shot with a straight stroke (this is no different than other sports such as golf, bowling, archery, darts, etc). Regardless of your mechanics, if you can't make the shot based on how you see, your brain will try to adjust.

So, by finding the root-cause of the adjustment, one can transition to a more pure mechanical delivery without the brain wanting to steer. I guess my point is that steering isn't ALWAYS a physical problem of your back arm, wrist, grip pressure, etc. It's possible it's not a physical problem at all. I've found that if I accept visual data more from my non-dom eye, I haven't been experiencing that last-moment adjustment. I think it's a visual thing. I'm not an eye doctor nor am I a psychologist, so I'm just trying to share what I've stumbled upon (for me).

I've visited a few archery forums and this topic seems to be beat to death. People think they're "nutted-up" on a bulls-eye only to miss to the left/right consistently. They're accepting the parallax view as the correct one. Same with darts. You either fix the root cause or identify the cause and shoot to an uncomfy/wrong position to get the correct results. That doesn't mean you're releasing crooked or stroking crooked. It could (not always) mean your mal-aligned to the correct visual input.

As I said before--- this is really a tough subject to discuss with someone who isn't cross-eye dominant with a strong dominant eye.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
So, even though my practice strokes are straight, my brain wants to correct on the final stroke because it knows I can't make the shot with a straight stroke (this is no different than other sports such as golf, bowling, archery, darts, etc). Regardless of your mechanics, if you can't make the shot based on how you see, your brain will try to adjust.
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I've lined up wrong, and when I've pulled the trigger, my brain would tell me "you're gonna miss" and my reflex is to try to compensate, but I Know immediately because I did not finish my stroke where it normally is supposed to finish.

But what you're describing is more of a constant mis-information, and a constant attempt at error correction.

I guess I may not have any good references as to how that would manifest itself.
Regardless.. glad you figured it out for yourself.
 
The last second swoop

I'm right handed and send my cue to the right when I finish my stroke which puts unneeded right spin on the CB. I visited Stan Shuffett and he pointed out that I favor my left eye even though I'm right eye dominant. In practice I try to aim with my dominant eye, but I miss because I setup naturally with my left eye to aim shots. I have an actual mental battle and even find myself closing one eye so the other eye can aim. I feel like a schizophrenic trying to aim my shot! My stroke straightens out as I move to the other eye to aim.

Maybe Freddie's right and I should just let my eyes do what they want. It's a pisser when you're running out and dog an easy shot because the other eye wants a piece of the action. I never used to tell opponents about my problem, but I think I might start letting it be known. That way I can get more weight. ;)
 
I have a friend that has one eye and he shoots lights out.

Andy Scott another good shooter, closes one eye on all shots.

All other things considered, in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king?:smile:
 
When I first started wearing spectacles the balls looked squashed oval, after a couple of days I forgot about it. Then a few years later I switched to contacts, at first the balls looked egg shaped, now they look round I think. One has to wonder how much the brain is compensating for this. I suppose though you create your own reality...... just like in the 70's :D
 
Scott Lee said:
In teaching for the past 30 years, it has become more evident that the cue tip moving off line is far more likely to be involved with grip pressure, than where your eyes are positioned over the cue. Your cue should be positioned where you perceive a straight line, whether it is under your 'dominant eye' or not. With a pendulum swing (with no elbow drop), your elbow is a hinge that moves in a dead straight line. The only problems that can create a nonlinear delivery of the cuetip are grip pressure (too much), or over flexing the bicep.
Keep it simple folks.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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However...I don't think we have enough info.....IF he is/was setting up with a crooked cue....(even though when down on the shot he is percieving it to be straight)......he may be forced to curve into the shot to shoot striaght.....(we have no idea if this is happening....but it could be)

Years ago I had pretty much this exact same thing happen to me....I was asked (by the late BCA instructor Don Rose) if I was setting up straight...I said yes...he said are you sure...I said I was positive I was setting up straight....He had me set up and then he showed me just how crooked I was....Yes the tip of my cue was pointing directly at the target....but my grip hand was off to the left of the aim line. He said I was subconciously "correcting" on the final stroke but it would be a inconsistent delivery "long term".....He showed me how to set up "straight" and how to check myself...for me the cue needs to be under my dominant eye..(left eye..I shoot left handed) and it automatically eliminates the "correcting" move during the final stroke.

I don't know if I completly buy the "cross dominant" eye theory....I think have him set up the way he "thinks" is causing the cross dominant eye and then (perhaps with some assistance) do the "dominant eye test" to see if he is indeed dominant in his other eye.....(while playing pool)
 
Philthepockets said:
When I first started wearing spectacles the balls looked squashed oval, after a couple of days I forgot about it. Then a few years later I switched to contacts, at first the balls looked egg shaped, now they look round I think. One has to wonder how much the brain is compensating for this. I suppose though you create your own reality...... just like in the 70's :D
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That is called an astigmatism.....I have a verticle in my left eye and a diagonal in my right....mine is in the lens of my eye so it is farily un-correctable.....no lasik for me.....

Do to my "astigmatisms" I see a double image....I see the actual image and a phantom "edge" to anything I look at......

The best part is they only make contacts that can make me see clearer....None fit my eye properly that correct my astigmatisms......I have contacts....and If I wear them they make my vision 20/20 instead of 20/40...it makes the image very clear...but it also makes the astigmatism more clear....and after a while wearing contacts my vision starts to fade back to 20/40.......The doctors decided that my eyes are blurring to a 20/40 vision so that the astigmatisms will be "less noticable"............I have learned to live with it and don't bother with glasses or contacts anymore.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Sometimes it might take a bunch of little things to hit me in the face before I figure out something that might be obvious to someone else. Here's one example....

For years I've always had a slight right to left dip in my stroke. The movement is very slight; however, it's enough to make me miss on longer pressure-shots. No matter how many drills / shots I'd shoot, I just couldn't seem to straighten out that tiny movement.

A few years back, I purchased Joe Tucker's 3rd Eye device (that little white plastic fork). I recall when I first used this thing, true center ball looked WEIRD to me (it wasn't what I was seeing when I was down on the shot). In fact, that device forced me to see center ball with my left eye for some WEIRD reason. I found that when I looked at the CB with the center of my vision (both eyes), true center ball was about 1/8 tip to the left of center. So, I made that correction and my game improved... but I still had that damned left-dip in my stroke.

So, within the last year, Perfect Aim came out which had me thinking about eye positions more than I have in the past. While working my way through Gene's info, I found that I'm right-eye dominant. OK--- let's do the test.....I'm looking at the door knob from 30 feet back through a hole formed with both of my hands. I'm making the hole smaller so I can barely see the door knob. OK, let's close the left eye (knob is still there)....close the right eye... the knob disappears. Yup, right-eye dominant.

I was lucky to meet-up with Gene a few months back in Jimmy's pool hall (nice room, btw). Gene takes one look at me and says, "Dave, you're left-eye dominant." I'm like, "No way... I'm right eye dominant." Gene says, "HA... just close your left eye then and tell me how the shot looks." Well, I did and the entire shot disappeared. How can that be???!? Gene informed me that my head was slightly shifted to where my left eye was more over the center than the right. So, although I'm right-eye dominant... I'm LEFT eye dominant while playing pool (forced to be based on technique).

Let's get to the stroking straight part. When I've played pool, I've always looked at the CB from my vision center based on input from both eyes (which is why I have an "illusion" to where the center of the CB is...my right eye is ramming info to the brain trying to do more than the left). Because of this illusion, I've always set my body up to this incorrect center as well (which is why I required the 1/8 tip adjustment to get to true center). The stroke dip was my brain making an adjustment to overcome the illusion.

I've found that while setting up to the shot, if I only accept the input from my left eye (with both eyes open, of course, just being focused with the left) and come into the CB with the input from the left eye and lock in center ball with the left eye... my stroke is straight.

I'm really sorry for the long post, but I think this is important. For as long as I've been practicing to get better--- stroking straight was only working on one's mechanics and I don't think that's 100% the case (a lot of it is mechanics, but your vision is a good chunk as well). Understanding how you SEE with your eyes (dominant eyes and whatnot) is important; however, how that applies to your technique is more important yet.

I've found myself stroking a LOT straighter now that my brain isn't making an adjustment to overcome the illusion formed with my technique. Sure, this affects aiming as well (hence Perfect Aim) but it can REALLY affect the physical aspects of pool too. I'm just sick it took me years to fully grasp what was going on with my game.

I've been really excited with my results within the last few months; I thought I'd share it with the group since I'm SURE there are other cross-dominant players out there who are probably wondering why they're not getting any better.

Thanks, Joe/Gene.

Dave
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Dave: I have a dip to the left on my stroke too. I saw Gene and worked with him for a few minutes between his tournament games a few weeks ago. He determined I was left eye dominant.

Then I watched the dvd.

Armed with my "left eye dominant" info, what is a player to do? Just make sure I set up with my left eye over the ball?

Thanks.
 
dmgwalsh said:
Dave: I have a dip to the left on my stroke too. I saw Gene and worked with him for a few minutes between his tournament games a few weeks ago. He determined I was left eye dominant.

Then I watched the dvd.

Armed with my "left eye dominant" info, what is a player to do? Just make sure I set up with my left eye over the ball?

Thanks.
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I'm not sure if your left eye has to be directly over the cue. When you setup to your shot and when identifying the line, take the input from your left eye as opposed to your vision's center. That way, when you get into your shot, your body/sight/stroke line are aligned together.

When you do this, it feels unnatural (for me at least) because my right eye is my true dominant eye; however, it's my left eye that's closest to the cue and the eye that provides the best perspective. However, it gives me the best results.
 
the eyes have betrayed us!

tell me about it! for 15 years I assumed I was right eye dominant and tried to get the cue under my right eye. Was shown about a year ago that I WAS LEFT!!! Talk about a world altering message! I tried to fix it and couldn't figure it out, once I gave up, stopped trying to consciously control my aim and trusted to leave that to the auto pilot and just feel the shot I was great.
 
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