Stroking Straight

[JoeyA]

The key is consistent delivery to the point on the ball you want to hit. You can have the straightest textbook perfect stroke in the world and still not be hitting the ball where you think you are hitting it.

I have shown this to my students dozens of times using a training ball where you can see where the ball was stuck.

This is one that I just invented for this purpose -

It has little open circles on one side and lines on the other so you can see precisely where you hit the ball. So when you are thinking 2tips left or right you can see if you are really hitting the ball where you think that is.

John,
Is the distance between those small open circles 1/8" center to center?

JoeyA

 

[JB Cases]

John,
Is the distance between those small open circles 1/8" center to center?

JoeyA

Yes. Or 3.75mm.

 

[JB Cases]

I think, bottle drill is a waste of time. If you stroke, you have to focus on the object ball, not the cue ball.

Actually you have to focus on both. You must be able to hit the cue ball where you want to hit it, and with the proper speed.

The bottle drill is just a way to teach yourself how to put the tip into the same place every time.

It will reveal any major flaws in your delivery that cause the tip to veer away from where you want it to go.

 

[JB Cases]

The highest-paid cuemen in the world nearly all use the same technique to ensure a straight, repeatable stroke. Few participants here use that simple, free technique. Maybe they should.

No pro pool player I've ever watched closely has a perfectly straight stroke.

One motivation to have a straight stroke is a simple calculation of the accuracy required to make typical pool shots. Example: the cue ball is on the head spot and the object ball is half way to a far corner pocket. The allowed error of your front hand or back hand for this shot is +- 1mm. That's the thickness of a dime.

Is a straight stroke necessary? No. Absolutely not. In practice, I've made the shot above 70 times in a row with a stroke that has about an inch of sideways movement. "All" I have to do is have the same swerve on every shot.

If I could go back in time, I'd revisit 1963, kidnap myself, and train myself to come more or less straight through. I would much rather not have a crooked stroke.

Since it's free could you point us towards some explanation of it?

 

[Jaden]

I don't want to take anything away from your game....

Dave,

The straightest stroke in pool may come from Allen Hopkins. Keith also has a very straight stroke, when he wants it to be. The longer the stroke the less likely it is for the whole stroke to be straight.

My stroke is a crooked as a dog's hind leg. I can't play a lick when I fight trying to stroke pretty. When I simply play pool I shoot a little better. Most folks figure AZB has helped their pool game, I think it has actually hurt mine because I tried to make things work that simply weren't for me and conflicted with the way I have hit over two million balls.

Hu

Especially since I was trying to get you to stake me in the open this year :wink:

But this is exactly why it is important to get quality instruction from the first time you pick up a cue.

Did you get to a high level play, probably, but think how much higher you might have gotten to if you had had proper instruction from the first time you picked up a cue.

my father was a road player from louisville in the sixties, he knew a lot about the game, but when I was kid and he started showing me stuff, for the most part I could care less. I wish I had paid more attention to the stuff he was showing me back then.

I got interested in the game when I was sixteen and first saw the color of money. Then I would go out in the game room and practice and practice, but I developed a few bad habits and my father had stopped teaching me by then.

It wasn't until I started working at my buddies pool hall and playing all the time that I started learning how to really play the right way and it took a little while to get rid of some bad habits, actually it took 17 years (j.k.)

Then I started teaching my little Bro when he was like 21, he had only picked up a cue a couple of times banging around with friends before that.

Within six months, he was a strong B and within a year and a half an A player.

for those of you in league, he's a nine in nineball and a seven in eightball. and was so within two years of picking up a cue on a serious level. In one of the vegas mini tourneys he broke and ran out the set of seven to beat an opponent.

Now, on any given day he can beat almost anyone.

It's all about getting proper instruction from the first time you pick up a cue.

Jaden

 

[fan-tum]

That seems a good method if you carry it out a bit further--not just hitting the opening, but stroking 4 to 5 inches inside the bottle without hitting anything. I have no trouble stroking to the opening, and I have a destructively crooked stroke.
Whoops-forgot to check'include original post'. This is about stroking into a bottle.

 

[Jaden]

Glad you clarified....

That seems a good method if you carry it out a bit further--not just hitting the opening, but stroking 4 to 5 inches inside the bottle without hitting anything. I have no trouble stroking to the opening, and I have a destructively crooked stroke.
Whoops-forgot to check'include original post'. This is about stroking into a bottle.

I thought you had developed a way of not making a mess, but I would need a wide mouthed bottle....

Jaden

 

[JoeyA]

Anyway......enough of the ad......if anyone wants to beat me out of $5 at the SBE stop by and prove me wrong on the NO MISCUE zone on this ball. If you can miscue while hitting the cueball INSIDE the white circle then I will give you $5 OR if you can hit OUTSIDE the white circle and NOT miscue then I will give you $5.

I will bring my goose juice and win that $5, I guarantee.

Justin Wilson

 

[whitewolf]

I use a technique of curling my pinky inwards, like a little "ball" that rests on the outside of the cue, which pulls the heel of my hand out of the way. It's like a "space governor" that keeps the heel of my hand out of the way of a free-flowing stroke. It works for me, and keeps my stroke straight.

-Sean

I too have used this method for many years - as a training guide. i.e. practice the pinky technique and then switch to letting the pinky point downward.

But I can tell you that you cannot have a truly flowing stroke using this method and your ability to control the cue ball will suffer. I say this because the only way to use the pinky method is to make your grip more rigid....not gripping the cue in a death grasp....but merely bending your wrist in to make the adjustment. This causes STIFFNESS. Over time this pinky method becomes very uncomfortable to me.

BTW, no pro I know of uses the pinky method, except Mike Davis - and you can see what it does to his stroke. He looks rigid as hell and he plays that way too, except that he is very accurate - your goal anyway, correct? To me the tradeoff is not worth it.

I can say that Willie Mosconi, Cole Dickson, and Allison Fisher have perfectly straight strokes.

And for those of you who say Allen Hopkins has a straight stroke need to get you eyes examined. I have watched him play and his stroke pulls one way or another. Horrible to watch. Just horrible.

 

[greyghost]

right on Joey, thats my favorite cook all time!

I will bring my goose juice and win that $5, I guarantee.

Justin Wilson

LMAO....a little bit oh Chablis Wine for dem shrimp....and a little bit for me!


Dam I miss that man...he was a great cook and a hell of an entertainer/comedian of sorts.


He said once about how when the acadians came down from Nova Scotia some landed in the Carolinas, some in mississippi some in Louisiana and the unlucky ones landed in Texas. And "we know you people in texas got some names for us Cajuns...but don't you worry we got some names for you too!" :wink:

LMAO that always made me laugh and smile.

best wishes,
Grey GHost

 

[SpiderWebComm]

JB,

Get my $10. I'll miscue in the circle and double-or-nothing on not miscuing outside the circle

hehehehe

I can't wait to meet ya at the expo--- looking forward to it.

Dave

 

[ShootingArts]

I've found the same thing

Jaden,

Many of my posts state that good instruction and good equipment to begin with are usually the fastest ways to learn something. People I taught advanced a heck of a lot faster than I did because they gained the benefit of a lot of things I learned the hard way in a few hours.

I just had a funny(as in odd) thought, not where I planned to go with this post. I have taught many people many things. Aside from the mundane, I have taught people how to shoot rifles, pistols, and pool. The only person given the easy path that most people would agree surpassed me is a photographer I guided in his early days. Dozens of people that I gave a huge head start into doing something failed to stick with it or if they stuck with it never reached the skill level I did as indicated by placings in competition and actual scores in some sports. It seems that we need a combination of being pointed in the right direction and some struggling and striving on our own to achieve a decent level. We learn dozens of little things along the way that don't get taught by anyone.

Good fundamentals shorten the curve and it's nice if someone is taught those. I'm speculating at the moment that trying to hand someone too much often does them more harm than good.

Hu

PS: I was piddling around the house yesterday and cobbled together one of the laser line tools on an old pool stick. After careful evaluation my stroke isn't quite as crooked as a dog's hind leg. :wink:

Especially since I was trying to get you to stake me in the open this year :wink:

But this is exactly why it is important to get quality instruction from the first time you pick up a cue.

Did you get to a high level play, probably, but think how much higher you might have gotten to if you had had proper instruction from the first time you picked up a cue.

my father was a road player from louisville in the sixties, he knew a lot about the game, but when I was kid and he started showing me stuff, for the most part I could care less. I wish I had paid more attention to the stuff he was showing me back then.

I got interested in the game when I was sixteen and first saw the color of money. Then I would go out in the game room and practice and practice, but I developed a few bad habits and my father had stopped teaching me by then.

It wasn't until I started working at my buddies pool hall and playing all the time that I started learning how to really play the right way and it took a little while to get rid of some bad habits, actually it took 17 years (j.k.)

Then I started teaching my little Bro when he was like 21, he had only picked up a cue a couple of times banging around with friends before that.

Within six months, he was a strong B and within a year and a half an A player.

for those of you in league, he's a nine in nineball and a seven in eightball. and was so within two years of picking up a cue on a serious level. In one of the vegas mini tourneys he broke and ran out the set of seven to beat an opponent.

Now, on any given day he can beat almost anyone.

It's all about getting proper instruction from the first time you pick up a cue.

Jaden

 

[sfleinen]

I too have used this method for many years - as a training guide. i.e. practice the pinky technique and then switch to letting the pinky point downward.

But I can tell you that you cannot have a truly flowing stroke using this method and your ability to control the cue ball will suffer. I say this because the only way to use the pinky method is to make your grip more rigid....not gripping the cue in a death grasp....but merely bending your wrist in to make the adjustment. This causes STIFFNESS. Over time this pinky method becomes very uncomfortable to me.

BTW, no pro I know of uses the pinky method, except Mike Davis - and you can see what it does to his stroke. He looks rigid as hell and he plays that way too, except that he is very accurate - your goal anyway, correct? To me the tradeoff is not worth it.

I can say that Willie Mosconi, Cole Dickson, and Allison Fisher have perfectly straight strokes.

And for those of you who say Allen Hopkins has a straight stroke need to get you eyes examined. I have watched him play and his stroke pulls one way or another. Horrible to watch. Just horrible.

Whitewolf:

I appreciate your post and feedback, but perhaps you missed my follow-up post to the one you quoted, which describes a "Phase 2" approach once you get the hang of the curled pinky technique (it's the one with the forearm musclature graphics). The follow-up point is to forget your pinky is even there. I'm at the stage where my wrist is very loose; not "floppy" loose where it's flopping all over the place, but loose in the respect that I let my wrist follow the momentum of the cue, forwards and backwards. It's progressed into a nice wrist "snap" that I engage during the final delivery of the cue to the cue ball. My hand and wrist are certainly not tense at all. Like I mentioned in that follow-up post, the idea is that once you get used to the feeling of the cue in your remaining fingers (thumb + index, middle, ring) with your hand's heel "pulled away" by the folded pinky, to forget about the pinky altogether, and use a loose cradle grip. The pinky is there only as a "space governor" in keeping the cue positioned at the correct point in your hand where the heel of your hand doesn't bump into the cue. I can almost "throw" the cue underhanded, if I let my grip relax to the point where the cue slides forward through my hand like a spear. In fact, I like to use a carom [rubber] grip sleeve on my cue, because I like to keep my hand relaxed, and yet still have traction on the gripping area of the cue.

Just to clear something up, the curled pinky technique isn't for everyone. If one doesn't have the problem of his/her hand's heel bumping into the cue, then the pinky technique isn't for him/her. Why practice something that will have no benefit?

Whitewolf, if you're planning to be at SBE, I'll be happy to demonstrate the technique in how I use it, and how my grip hand is certainly not tense or otherwise engaging any kind of hand muscles that would prevent a relaxed grip. Would welcome the opportunity to meet you.

Let me know what you think,
-Sean

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Whitewolf:

I appreciate your post and feedback, but perhaps you missed my follow-up post to the one you quoted, which describes a "Phase 2" approach once you get the hang of the curled pinky technique (it's the one with the forearm musclature graphics). The follow-up point is to forget your pinky is even there. I'm at the stage where my wrist is very loose; not "floppy" loose where it's flopping all over the place, but loose in the respect that I let my wrist follow the momentum of the cue, forwards and backwards. It's progressed into a nice wrist "snap" that I engage during the final delivery of the cue to the cue ball. My hand and wrist are certainly not tense at all. Like I mentioned in that follow-up post, the idea is that once you get used to the feeling of the cue in your remaining fingers (thumb + index, middle, ring) with your hand's heel "pulled away" by the folded pinky, to forget about the pinky altogether, and use a loose cradle grip. The pinky is there only as a "space governor" in keeping the cue positioned at the correct point in your hand where the heel of your hand doesn't bump into the cue. I can almost "throw" the cue underhanded, if I let my grip relax to the point where the cue slides forward through my hand like a spear. In fact, I like to use a carom [rubber] grip sleeve on my cue, because I like to keep my hand relaxed, and yet still have traction on the gripping area of the cue.

Just to clear something up, the curled pinky technique isn't for everyone. If one doesn't have the problem of his/her hand's heel bumping into the cue, then the pinky technique isn't for him/her. Why practice something that will have no benefit?

Whitewolf, if you're planning to be at SBE, I'll be happy to demonstrate the technique in how I use it, and how my grip hand is certainly not tense or otherwise engaging any kind of hand muscles that would prevent a relaxed grip. Would welcome the opportunity to meet you.

Let me know what you think,
-Sean

I'm not quite sure I understand the technique. Can you post a pic of your backhand? The way I read it is you first through third finger rest around the cue normally (with the thumb) and the pinky is curled in. The curled pinky is underneath the cue?

Can you post a pic? I want to see the mechanics of it.

Dave

 

[sfleinen]

I'm not quite sure I understand the technique. Can you post a pic of your backhand? The way I read it is you first through third finger rest around the cue normally (with the thumb) and the pinky is curled in. The curled pinky is underneath the cue?

Can you post a pic? I want to see the mechanics of it.

Dave

Dave:

I'd be happy to. I'm at work at the moment (onsite at a customer site that I do consulting work for), so naturally I don't have my cues with me. But I will later this evening, and I'll get someone to snap a couple pics (different angles) so you can see the mechanics of it, how it all comes together.

The pinky is resting (relaxed) on the side of the cue, the side opposite your body (the side of the cue facing out), and the "flat" of your pinky's fingernail is resting against the wrap of the cue. If the pinky is "underneath" the cue, it's because your wrist is arched inwards towards your body (a la chicken wing style). The wrist is loose and relaxed. The curled pinky serves to gently pull the heel of the hand (i.e. that side part of the hand that makes contact when you execute a karate "chop") away from the cue, preventing it from bumping into the cue which would otherwise divert it during delivery.

I'll post pics later this evening.

-Sean

 

[Jaden]

absolutely...

Jaden,

Many of my posts state that good instruction and good equipment to begin with are usually the fastest ways to learn something. People I taught advanced a heck of a lot faster than I did because they gained the benefit of a lot of things I learned the hard way in a few hours.

I just had a funny(as in odd) thought, not where I planned to go with this post. I have taught many people many things. Aside from the mundane, I have taught people how to shoot rifles, pistols, and pool. The only person given the easy path that most people would agree surpassed me is a photographer I guided in his early days. Dozens of people that I gave a huge head start into doing something failed to stick with it or if they stuck with it never reached the skill level I did as indicated by placings in competition and actual scores in some sports. It seems that we need a combination of being pointed in the right direction and some struggling and striving on our own to achieve a decent level. We learn dozens of little things along the way that don't get taught by anyone.

Good fundamentals shorten the curve and it's nice if someone is taught those. I'm speculating at the moment that trying to hand someone too much often does them more harm than good.

Hu

PS: I was piddling around the house yesterday and cobbled together one of the laser line tools on an old pool stick. After careful evaluation my stroke isn't quite as crooked as a dog's hind leg. :wink:

I know for a fact that my bro wouldn't be as good a player as he is today without some serious dedication to the game on his part. I can also make a good guess that he would be struggling a lot more if he hadn't had the benefit of my instruction in the beginning.

It's kind of funny how he got interested.

I know a lot of people hate PHJs. But I took Chris to the movies to see PHJ and afterwards I told him I was planning on going to the poolhall and practicing and if he wanted to go and learn how to play that good, I'd teach him.

I think we spent like five hours in the pool hall that night and then over the next eight or nine months we were in the pool hall practically every waking moment aside from working (which in the Navy was about six hours a day).

I swear I must've spent 30-45 dollars a day on table time and food bills at college billiards. like five days a week during that time.

Then I got transfered up to central california after about the first year after he started learning and he was on his own.

But the first things I taught him, were the fundies and practice drills.

I remember one time when he was in practicing and I was playing on the table next to him. We were planning on going to the movies and I gave him the six out for who would pay. We went hill hill and he won, but then I think we scrapped going to the movies so that we could play some more.....

Ahhhh, those times when we were soo addicted to the game that we couldn't talk ourselves out of the poolhall....

Wait a minute, we're still like that....lol

Jaden

 

[SpiderWebComm]

One of the purest methods of stroking is throwing your cue (one way or another). Even if it's just a free-slide in your back-hand.

How many of you incorporate more radical techniques such as "throwing/sliding" into your game?

I know Superstar will bust my nuts with this, but when I'm feeling really good-- I'll snap my wrist and spear the cue through the CB, letting go completely. I don't do this on every shot (although I know a few players who do). I'm not afraid to spear through the CB on a have-to-make shot.

Anything to add about your technique?

 

[Koop]

One of the purest methods of stroking is throwing your cue (one way or another). Even if it's just a free-slide in your back-hand.

How many of you incorporate more radical techniques such as "throwing/sliding" into your game?

I know Superstar will bust my nuts with this, but when I'm feeling really good-- I'll snap my wrist and spear the cue through the CB, letting go completely. I don't do this on every shot (although I know a few players who do). I'm not afraid to spear through the CB on a have-to-make shot.

Anything to add about your technique?

Dave, when you say letting go completely do you mean your cue actually flies out of your hand and onto the table?

Koop - looking forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks

 

[JoeyInCali]

One of the purest methods of stroking is throwing your cue (one way or another). Even if it's just a free-slide in your back-hand.

How many of you incorporate more radical techniques such as "throwing/sliding" into your game?

I know Superstar will bust my nuts with this, but when I'm feeling really good-- I'll snap my wrist and spear the cue through the CB, letting go completely. I don't do this on every shot (although I know a few players who do). I'm not afraid to spear through the CB on a have-to-make shot.

Anything to add about your technique?

Efren is proud of you.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dave, when you say letting go completely do you mean your cue actually flies out of your hand and onto the table?

Koop - looking forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks

Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWrchihrkpw

I have a much better video I made over a year ago, but I need to find it. I might make a new video with throwing.

EDIT: I wish I could "slide" well. My hands sweat too much to slide well. So, the reason I release is to not influence the throw at all with a sweaty hand.