SVB cheating? Shaw/SVB Derby 9 Ball

[greyghost]

They took one of his wins away? (He will tell you he won it seven times.)

they took them all from August 98 forward. I can’t stand a cheater but with all the money he was raising for charities and cancer back then was already over 250mil....I may have had to switch a vial if I was in the lab man lol


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[Milkman]

comment redacted because the balls were racked incorrectly, ignore me.

 

[Swighey]

Shane does not have to cheat any one at pool to win.

Indeed. Shane does not have to cheat so any photo evidence of a clearly manipulated rack can't possibly be cheating so we shouldn't even discuss it or even entertain the notion. Because it didn't happen.

By the same logic, Shaw is good enough that he can beat anyone regardless of the current match score and therefore doesn't need to accuse anyone of cheating to give himself a chance. Therefore he didn't accuse Shane of cheating regardless of any video evidence of him apparently doing so. It didn't happen.

This thread doesn't exist. It didn't happen.

 

[RiverCity]

Indeed. Shane does not have to cheat so any photo evidence of a clearly manipulated rack can't possibly be cheating so we shouldn't even discuss it or even entertain the notion. Because it didn't happen.

By the same logic, Shaw is good enough that he can beat anyone regardless of the current match score and therefore doesn't need to accuse anyone of cheating to give himself a chance. Therefore he didn't accuse Shane of cheating regardless of any video evidence of him apparently doing so. It didn't happen.

This thread doesn't exist. It didn't happen.

 

[jay helfert]

Indeed. Shane does not have to cheat so any photo evidence of a clearly manipulated rack can't possibly be cheating so we shouldn't even discuss it or even entertain the notion. Because it didn't happen.

By the same logic, Shaw is good enough that he can beat anyone regardless of the current match score and therefore doesn't need to accuse anyone of cheating to give himself a chance. Therefore he didn't accuse Shane of cheating regardless of any video evidence of him apparently doing so. It didn't happen.

This thread doesn't exist. It didn't happen.

You mean it's all "fake news?" Or are we only hearing alternative facts? :grin-square:

 

[Ak Guy]

Darn it all.

I am not pool smart enough to know if Shane was cheating, or if most of the pros do the same thing, or if it was just a pain to get all the balls tight with that rack and that table.

I try to give folks the benefit of the doubt when it comes to stuff like that because it is hard to prove the intent when equipment may be at fault. I know in the past Shane has not had much of a problem beating any one with a neutral racker, or if his opponent racked for him.

What I do know is some folks have an explosive and unpredictable behavior. Some have a history of that type of behavior and it seems to always happen when they are loosing. Why that type of behavior is tolerated is beyond me and it reflects poorly on the professionalism of professional tournaments and pool.

I also believe tournament directors would be doing pool a favor if they let it be known ahead a time that poor sportsmanship will not be tolerated. When it happens they should penalize the offender depending on the severity of the offense.

By that I mean a loss of a game, loss of a match, or showed the door.

 

[garczar]

I am not pool smart enough to know if Shane was cheating, or if most of the pros do the same thing, or if it was just a pain to get all the balls tight with that rack and that table.

I try to give folks the benefit of the doubt when it comes to stuff like that because it is hard to prove the intent when equipment may be at fault. I know in the past Shane has not had much of a problem beating any one with a neutral racker, or if his opponent racked for him.

What I do know is some folks have an explosive and unpredictable behavior. Some have a history of that type of behavior and it seems to always happen when they are loosing. Why that type of behavior is tolerated is beyond me and it reflects poorly on the professionalism of professional tournaments and pool.

I also believe tournament directors would be doing pool a favor if they let it be known ahead a time that poor sportsmanship will not be tolerated. When it happens they should penalize the offender depending on the severity of the offense.

By that I mean a loss of a game, loss of a match, or showed the door.

Shaw quit and left like the whiny biach he is.

 

[Swighey]

I am not pool smart enough to know if Shane was cheating, or if most of the pros do the same thing, or if it was just a pain to get all the balls tight with that rack and that table.

I try to give folks the benefit of the doubt when it comes to stuff like that because it is hard to prove the intent when equipment may be at fault. I know in the past Shane has not had much of a problem beating any one with a neutral racker, or if his opponent racked for him.

What I do know is some folks have an explosive and unpredictable behavior. Some have a history of that type of behavior and it seems to always happen when they are loosing. Why that type of behavior is tolerated is beyond me and it reflects poorly on the professionalism of professional tournaments and pool.

I also believe tournament directors would be doing pool a favor if they let it be known ahead a time that poor sportsmanship will not be tolerated. When it happens they should penalize the offender depending on the severity of the offense.

By that I mean a loss of a game, loss of a match, or showed the door.

I like to give folks the benefit of the doubt too. For example, If it's impossible to tell if my opponent fouled even if I think they might have and they don't call it then I won't ask them if it happened.

I agree about behaviour that shouldn't be tolerated as it reflects badly on the game. This includes cheating the rack. Yes, the type of behaviour that Shaw displayed should not be tolerated. But I would never defend Shane in order to make this point. And I would never refuse to entertain the notion that Shane might have cheated in order to back up the view that Shaw's behavior wasn't acceptable. We can either treat them as separate issues - and therefore not dismiss one to somehow support our view of the other. Or we can treat them as connected, in which case if we blame Shaw we also apportion appropriate blame to Shane. That would, to me, be a sensible way to treat the issue.

 

[Johnnyt]

Why 9 ball instead of 10 ball? Do promoters save that much on the 9 ball tournament verses 10 ball? Johnnyt

 

[LHP5]

Why 9 ball instead of 10 ball? Do promoters save that much on the 9 ball tournament verses 10 ball? Johnnyt

For derby city, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that they use 9 ball because historically it was always 9 ball from the old days. That was the reason I heard also for the rack your own and winner breaks. Makes sense and I personally like that they kept the tradition. DCC was always a big event for the action room anyways and the tournament was supposed to be the side event lol.

 

[windKnott]

I cannot for the life of me understand what is wrong with playing straight rotation? It's a great game, much more fair, interesting and skillful than both 9 and 10 ball. It produces some of the best all around players on the planet. Why do you think the Pinoys are killing everyone? They play rotation, which means they've got all the skills and knowledge they need to play any pool game well. It's got a power break, banks, combinations, caroms, you name it. And you get points for pocketing balls, which means that every ball actually matters.

Couldn’t Agree More

 

[briankenobi]

There are around 40 tables used for the event. You would need two referees per table since play starts as early as 8am and goes non stop until midnight or later. The refs would need to have breaks. Not economical to do that.

I was 2 feet from Shane and Jayson when Jasyon went off in front of the tournament desk. Jasyon said that both Shane and Dennis (Orcullo) cheat. Here is an interesting observation. I watched the match between Dennis and Chris Melling that Jayson watched. Jayson would complain everything Dennis made the wing ball. Towards the middle of the match, Jayson and Chris both threw their hands up when Dennis made the wing ball. Here is the ironic part though. The last two breaks that Melling did, he made the wing ball! Dennis didn't throw his hands up or nothing. I found that to be very interesting. This was the talk around Derby for the night as you might expect. I listened to Corey Deuel talk about Shane and racking and in the back of my mind I was like, "your the most imfamous rack mechanic around." We all remember that TAR match between them both we Corey soft broke and not a ball went past the side pocket, he made the wing ball everytime, and literally had the same set up.

Point is, like Bergman said, many people know the rack. Jayson was being a poor sport because he was loosing. If he was running out on Shane, he wouldn't have been complaining.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

They all do it. When you pull the rack off and then finesse the 1 ball you are rigging the rack. You can not refreeze the one by gently rolling it back into place.

If you don't believe this, next time your at the pool hall rack the one with a slight gap then try to successfully refreeze it using only your finger. You cannot. The only way to refreeze the balls is against the triangle..

This is simply false. I routinely fix tiny gaps without reracking. Sometimes just a slight pressure does the trick. You may not be able to do that. It doesn't mean it can't be done. If you don't know how to make those tiny rack adjustments, you are going to see "rack rigging" in a lot of places where it isn't happening.

Do people screw with the rack with little touches? Sure. Is that the only thing *ever* that happens with little touches? No.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

There are around 40 tables used for the event. You would need two referees per table since play starts as early as 8am and goes non stop until midnight or later. The refs would need to have breaks. Not economical to do that.

I was 2 feet from Shane and Jayson when Jasyon went off in front of the tournament desk. Jasyon said that both Shane and Dennis (Orcullo) cheat. Here is an interesting observation. I watched the match between Dennis and Chris Melling that Jayson watched. Jayson would complain everything Dennis made the wing ball. Towards the middle of the match, Jayson and Chris both threw their hands up when Dennis made the wing ball. Here is the ironic part though. The last two breaks that Melling did, he made the wing ball! Dennis didn't throw his hands up or nothing. I found that to be very interesting. This was the talk around Derby for the night as you might expect. I listened to Corey Deuel talk about Shane and racking and in the back of my mind I was like, "your the most imfamous rack mechanic around." We all remember that TAR match between them both we Corey soft broke and not a ball went past the side pocket, he made the wing ball everytime, and literally had the same set up.

Point is, like Bergman said, many people know the rack. Jayson was being a poor sport because he was loosing. If he was running out on Shane, he wouldn't have been complaining.

You, like many here, seem to not recognize the difference between "making the wing ball", and "making the wing ball in a way that it isn't supposed to go."

If the rack is frozen and the breaker cut breaks from the box, or hits them square from the side rail, or breaks really soft from the corner of the box, then sure the wing ball should go. When the breaker is making the wing ball breaking from inside the box and smashing them square, that only happens on a gapped up rack.

Once you incorporate this distinction into your inventory of knowledge, Jayson's complaints will make more sense to you.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Cameron Smith]

You, like many here, seem to not recognize the difference between "making the wing ball", and "making the wing ball in a way that it isn't supposed to go."

If the rack is frozen and the breaker cut breaks from the box, or hits them square from the side rail, or breaks really soft from the corner of the box, then sure the wing ball should go. When the breaker is making the wing ball breaking from inside the box and smashing them square, that only happens on a gapped up rack.

Once you incorporate this distinction into your inventory of knowledge, Jayson's complaints will make more sense to you.

KMRUNOUT

And breaking from the centre is letting him control the one ball better, which to me is most concerning. Every break the one drifts down towards the corner pocket like it does in 10 ball.

 

[erhino41]

This is simply false. I routinely fix tiny gaps without reracking. Sometimes just a slight pressure does the trick. You may not be able to do that. It doesn't mean it can't be done. If you don't know how to make those tiny rack adjustments, you are going to see "rack rigging" in a lot of places where it isn't happening.

Do people screw with the rack with little touches? Sure. Is that the only thing *ever* that happens with little touches? No.

KMRUNOUT

With a rack template, sure. With a free standing rack of balls after lifting off the triangle, not so much. I have seen many people do this in person. There explanation is always that they are "fixing" gaps. Upon inspection of their racks you can see the gaps they were supposedly "fixing". I have spent more time than I would care to messing around with racks and testing every way possible to try and manually caress the balls back into a frozen state. I'm talking about frozen, not moving gaps you don't like into other areas that you like them in. You cannot refreeze balls by manually adjusting them with your finger. You will never convince me of this. If think that you have done this than you did not take a close enough look at the rack after you "fixed" it. The gap you wanted to remove was gone, but assuredly you created another gap somewhere else.

The reason there are the gaps in the first place is that the constant force of gravity caused the balls to settle into the lowest point in the cloth that would support their weight. It does not make sense to think that with a very slight touch of your finger you can somehow null the effects of gravity. The ball will always settle back to the same exact spot, unless of course you also move the other balls that are impeding it's path to another natural resting spot. Moving these other balls will inevitably move other balls and create other gaps. The only way to actually "refreeze" as many balls as possible is to replace the triangle and try again.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

And breaking from the centre is letting him control the one ball better, which to me is most concerning. Every break the one drifts down towards the corner pocket like it does in 10 ball.

Exactly right...another alluring quality of the gap rack.

KMRUNOUT


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[KMRUNOUT]

With a rack template, sure. With a free standing rack of balls after lifting off the triangle, not so much. I have seen many people do this in person. There explanation is always that they are "fixing" gaps. Upon inspection of their racks you can see the gaps they were supposedly "fixing". I have spent more time than I would care to messing around with racks and testing every way possible to try and manually caress the balls back into a frozen state. I'm talking about frozen, not moving gaps you don't like into other areas that you like them in. You cannot refreeze balls by manually adjusting them with your finger. You will never convince me of this. If think that you have done this than you did not take a close enough look at the rack after you "fixed" it. The gap you wanted to remove was gone, but assuredly you created another gap somewhere else.

The reason there are the gaps in the first place is that the constant force of gravity caused the balls to settle into the lowest point in the cloth that would support their weight. It does not make sense to think that with a very slight touch of your finger you can somehow null the effects of gravity. The ball will always settle back to the same exact spot, unless of course you also move the other balls that are impeding it's path to another natural resting spot. Moving these other balls will inevitably move other balls and create other gaps. The only way to actually "refreeze" as many balls as possible is to replace the triangle and try again.

I'm not interested in convincing you. I'm trying to inform you. I know for a fact that you are wrong. What God can't do may be impossible. But again, just because you are not able to do something doesn't mean it's not possible. I see about 1 in a 100 competent rackers in pool. Of those 99 less than competent ones, the majority think "I always give a tight rack".

I've fixed countless racks without creating new gaps. You have to understand how the balls are sitting in relation to the divot on the spot. Sorry you haven't been able to learn this skill.

KMRUNOUT


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[jalapus logan]

Why 9 ball instead of 10 ball? Do promoters save that much on the 9 ball tournament verses 10 ball? Johnnyt

You can't have a Derby City CLASSIC tournament if you aren't going to play the classic games, as inspired by the original Johnston city events. They've already changed the length of the nine ball races from seven to nine, which is probably against the spirit of the event anyway. This tournament has always been designed to encourage amateur participation, hence the low bank fee entry and hence the shorter races. In fact, given that the event schedule went awry this year, maybe they should shorten the nine all races back to seven. I think the only reason the races we're lengthened is because the pool community needed the DCC to be a mosconi cup points event due to lack of other viable tourneys.

 

[jalapus logan]

If racking is really becoming this big of an issue, then maybe playing full rack rotation is in order?