Taiwan TOI

[CJ Wiley]

TOI forces the cue ball to stay on more predictable angles off the rail.

Yes. People think this is all "stun" shots, but they always keep the tip just inside of center when they know the "stun" will touch a rail. The ball "floats" off the rail dead...there is no spin. If you hit center ball, the ball will come off the rail with "natural" English. They are "overriding" the natural by hitting a bit inside. That is why it "floats" instead of spinning as it rolls.

The only way to see the TOI, is in the after-contact-spin, if the cue ball appears to be "floating," it's done by cuing the ball slightly to the inside. When you use center-ball it will still have spin-after-contact, with TOI it counters the after-contact-spin and creates the knuckle-ball effect. TOI forces the cue ball to stay on more predictable angles off the rail.

 

[(((Satori)))]

The only way to see the TOI, is in the after-contact-spin, if the cue ball appears to be "floating," it's done by cuing the ball slightly to the inside. When you use center-ball it will still have spin-after-contact, with TOI it counters the after-contact-spin and creates the knuckle-ball effect. TOI forces the cue ball to stay on more predictable angles off the rail.

Is that the main reason for using TOI?

 

[CJ Wiley]

TOI is the best side because that's where your contact point is.

Is that the main reason for using TOI?

There's several reasons, it's labeled an "aiming system," and it does have that element. However, it is an over-all playing system, that incorporates shot-speed, TOI, and aiming. If you want to experience the aiming part of TOI try this:

Set up a slightly off angled shot (straight in to a spot a half diamond to the left of the corner pocket). This means you need to cut it slightly to the right, so look at the center of your tip, then get down as if it's straight in, aim at center (for your reference point and to "dial in your eyes"), then move your whole stick parallel to the shot line slightly to the right.

Hit it at the center, just like it's straight in and see what happens. It will cut slightly and go in, if it over cuts, set it up again and use LESS TOI. If it doesn't cut at all you're not using any TOI, cue it slightly more inside, to the right. After you make this and really FEEL the connection to the shot, more the angle where it's straight in to the first diamond repeat this drill.

This is how to calibrate the angles of TOI. There's no short cut to learning how much TOI to use to create the angles, I"ll just tell you it's LESS than you probably think it is.

After you do this you will start to "Real Eyes" what I've been saying about unintentionally deflecting shots OUT of the pocket in the past. If you just cue it a HAIR outside of center it will deflect a half diamond on a 4'-5' shot. Imagine how many balls you've missed by unintentionally doing this and having NO IDEA why.

This is why I strongly recommend NOT using center ball because{a slight stoking error} will happen and you won't be able to tell which side of center you "might" have hit. Maybe you didn't, maybe you did, who knows? How can you make the correct adjustment if you can't identify what he root issue of the miss is? You simply won't be able to, however, players like myself can and will beat you because of this knowledge.

I know one thing, you will not know for sure unless you start favoring one side of the cue ball and TOI is the best side because that's where your contact point is. Think about this, and it will make more and more sense.

 

[nateobot]

LOL @ dude in yellow shirt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xJ8jlxZoMhA#t=930

 

[Mikjary]

LOLOL
You are making yourself look silly with your limited sweeping assessment. As you yourself said you assessed based on part of match- all you can say is their this performance is B Level PRO- you were too quick to judge based on that that they are B Level PRO players

Using your limited methodology of assessment, we can deduce:

1) These 2 are B or C level players, making so many errors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CZo5nHx9As


2) This guy who lost badly blown away 1-9 in about 20 minutes is a lousy player, C player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY1yV8PEY6s

:thumbup:

LOLOL Reread my post...and thanks for the links. Your assessment and powers of deduction are something I'll just have to look forward to when I learn more about watching short races.

I've seen world champs lose to shortstops who played like God in short races, never missing a ball or position. LOLOL And, again, thanks for the links.

Best,
Mike

 

[Colin Colenso]

I have been watching this Taiwan video for 90 mins now and seeing very little evidence of inside alignment, let alone TOI execution. Only a few shots. They are playing many many times more TOO (Touch of Outside), swiping after center ball pre-alignment, much the same way as the top snooker players do.

High quality pool that's for sure!

 

[StopShort]

There's several reasons, it's labeled an "aiming system," and it does have that element. However, it is an over-all playing system, that incorporates shot-speed, TOI, and aiming. If you want to experience the aiming part of TOI try this:

Set up a slightly off angled shot (straight in to a spot a half diamond to the left of the corner pocket). This means you need to cut it slightly to the right, so look at the center of your tip, then get down as if it's straight in, aim at center (for your reference point and to "dial in your eyes"), then move your whole stick parallel to the shot line slightly to the right.

Hit it at the center, just like it's straight in and see what happens. It will cut slightly and go in, if it over cuts, set it up again and use LESS TOI. If it doesn't cut at all you're not using any TOI, cue it slightly more inside, to the right. After you make this and really FEEL the connection to the shot, more the angle where it's straight in to the first diamond repeat this drill.

This is how to calibrate the angles of TOI. There's no short cut to learning how much TOI to use to create the angles, I"ll just tell you it's LESS than you probably think it is.

After you do this you will start to "Real Eyes" what I've been saying about unintentionally deflecting shots OUT of the pocket in the past. If you just cue it a HAIR outside of center it will deflect a half diamond on a 4'-5' shot. Imagine how many balls you've missed by unintentionally doing this and having NO IDEA why.

This is why I strongly recommend NOT using center ball because{a slight stoking error} will happen and you won't be able to tell which side of center you "might" have hit. Maybe you didn't, maybe you did, who knows? How can you make the correct adjustment if you can't identify what he root issue of the miss is? You simply won't be able to, however, players like myself can and will beat you because of this knowledge.

I know one thing, you will not know for sure unless you start favoring one side of the cue ball and TOI is the best side because that's where your contact point is. Think about this, and it will make more and more sense.

Thank you for taking the time to post this. I just went to the table and played with this for a bit and it finally makes sense to me. I can't wait to get home and spend some more time with it.

 

[jsp]

I only watched the 9 ball part of the video. The player that had the 4 pack used TOI on about 80% of his shots. The other player used it about a third of the time.

Can you (or anyone else) post time stamps of individual shots that clearly show the use of TOI? Thanks.

 

[jsp]

But I believe both techniques have one thing in common, the cue ball is flowing. Flowing cue ball is the way to go, either it is touch of inside, outside or center .

What exactly do you mean by a "flowing" cue ball?

 

[DAVE_M]

TOI? Give me a break.
I'm pretty sure neither of these players watched that silly DVD.

Watching the video, I did find out what's wrong with American pool.
We don't have go-kart tracks and beautiful women as scorekeepers.

 

[Colin Colenso]

What exactly do you mean by a "flowing" cue ball?

I think it's when you spear through the CB with impetus from the wrist.

 

[one stroke]

I have been watching this Taiwan video for 90 mins now and seeing very little evidence of inside alignment, let alone TOI execution. Only a few shots. They are playing many many times more TOO (Touch of Outside), swiping after center ball pre-alignment, much the same way as the top snooker players do.

High quality pool that's for sure!

Mike Siegal shoots TOO and he's done pretty well with it
Any spot you use that you can hit repeatilly give a predictable out come

1

 

[HelloBaby-]

What exactly do you mean by a "flowing" cue ball?

That means the CB doesn't have any rolling motion on it from the moment you hit the CB to the moment the CB hits the OB. the CB either "stay still" or have back spin motion while traveling.
The easiest way to picture this is hold the cue ball with your hand and move it along the cueing line. The CB stays still in your hand all the way. Do the same thing but this time turn the cb slowly backward while moving it along the cueing line. That's a flowing cb.
To achieve that motion on the cue ball you will have to hit below the center of the cb with a long follow through smooth stroke, let the cue carry the cb away. It works with TOO, TOI, and TOC.
Hope this help.
Best.
Kevin.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I have been watching this Taiwan video for 90 mins now and seeing very little evidence of inside alignment, let alone TOI execution. Only a few shots. They are playing many many times more TOO (Touch of Outside), swiping after center ball pre-alignment, much the same way as the top snooker players do.

High quality pool that's for sure!

Hi Colin,

Did you make your assessment from watching the CB or did you make it from watching their stroke.

The reason I ask is that the swipe can be to the outside once the contact is made to the inside. I find myself consciously 'realeyesing' that I have done it subconsciously. I think sometime do it to keep from swiping to the inside which puts more spin on the ball.

When I use TOI, I want the feeling that the tip is digging into the CB & not glancing off. Remember with TOI we want the squirt. That digging in feeling tells me the ball is squirting with less spin than the glancing blow.

Also to another's point I use TOI with long length draws & follow shots. the cb squirt is still there just to a lesser degree than hitting on the equator which I rarely do. I'm always a bit below or above.

PS Good thread.

 

[hang-the-9]

The monster player you were talking about is Ko Ping Chung , go watch some CSI invitational if you want some more of him . I don't know TOI. But one thing I know for sure is Taiwanese player all use the same technique, 2 mains things are :
1. long follow through stroke ending with wrist acceleration and elbow drop
2. A lot, a lot, and a lot of stun shot and no spinning cue ball. They go center ball and up and down the vertical line. They can play perfectly with spin but just prefer the center ball hit.

So if the TOI is touch of inside, then NO, it's not TOI. But I believe both techniques have one thing in common, the cue ball is flowing. Flowing cue ball is the way to go, either it is touch of inside, outside or center .

I wonder if their no spin game comes from the fact that a lot of their pro tables setups play very fast so if you add spin to the shot you will be way out of line.

I know every time the US players head overseas and play on that Andy cloth they say it plays like it's ice, but we have a ton of layers that like to spin the cueball even if they don't totall have to, often to get just another few % better shot. That could cause them fits on the slippery fast tables.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I wonder if their no spin game comes from the fact that a lot of their pro tables setups play very fast so if you add spin to the shot you will be way out of line.

I know every time the US players head overseas and play on that Andy cloth they say it plays like it's ice, but we have a ton of layers that like to spin the cueball even if they don't totall have to, often to get just another few % better shot. That could cause them fits on the slippery fast tables.

The first time I saw this kind of playing was way back in the late 60s and early 70s. This was the way the BEST money players played on bar tables. In bars, you NEVER could find tables that played the same...every bar, every table was different and MOST of the tables had the BIG cue ball.

Therefore, this kind of playing was conducive to keeping the cue ball in "play". You didn't want to be turning the cue ball loose on tables where every rail played different, the table had rolls, and big side pockets to scratch in.

 

[Cuebuddy]

Lol... actually it just says "I wonder how he hit that" in broken Japanese, although it could be a reference to the hot chick in the background.

LOL I tried to be cute and translate "How did he hit it" and thats what Google translate gave me:embarrassed2:

 

[Colin Colenso]

Hi Colin,

Did you make your assessment from watching the CB or did you make it from watching their stroke.

The reason I ask is that the swipe can be to the outside once the contact is made to the inside. I find myself consciously 'realeyesing' that I have done it subconsciously. I think sometime do it to keep from swiping to the inside which puts more spin on the ball.

When I use TOI, I want the feeling that the tip is digging into the CB & not glancing off. Remember with TOI we want the squirt. That digging in feeling tells me the ball is squirting with less spin than the glancing blow.

Also to another's point I use TOI with long length draws & follow shots. the cb squirt is still there just to a lesser degree than hitting on the equator which I rarely do. I'm always a bit below or above.

PS Good thread Mike.

Hi Mike,

My assessment came from 1. Watching their alignment, which is a little subjective as perspective is not ideal and 2. From watching how the CB came off the rails, which is pretty objective as it tells the spin of the CB most times, when view of such is clear.

I think I'm familiar with the type of stroke you mention. I've referred to it as reverse swipe, which is aligning, say to the left, swiping right but still contacting the CB left of center, while the cue tracks a path contrary to what is expected.

This has an effect, but some recent testing I've done showed the effect as far less than I'd assumed on most shots, especially firm shots.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[3RAILKICK]

There's several reasons, it's labeled an "aiming system," and it does have that element. However, it is an over-all playing system, that incorporates shot-speed, TOI, and aiming. If you want to experience the aiming part of TOI try this:

Set up a slightly off angled shot (straight in to a spot a half diamond to the left of the corner pocket). This means you need to cut it slightly to the right, so look at the center of your tip, then get down as if it's straight in, aim at center (for your reference point and to "dial in your eyes"), then move your whole stick parallel to the shot line slightly to the right.

Hit it at the center, just like it's straight in and see what happens. It will cut sligHhtly and go in, if it over cuts, set it up again and use LESS TOI. If it doesn't cut at all you're not using any TOI, cue it slightly more inside, to the right. After you make this and really FEEL the connection to the shot, more the angle where it's straight in to the first diamond repeat this drill.

This is how to calibrate the angles of TOI. There's no short cut to learning how much TOI to use to create the angles, I"ll just tell you it's LESS than you probably think it is.

After you do this you will start to "Real Eyes" what I've been saying about unintentionally deflecting shots OUT of the pocket in the past. If you just cue it a HAIR outside of center it will deflect a half diamond on a 4'-5' shot. Imagine how many balls you've missed by unintentionally doing this and having NO IDEA why.

This is why I strongly recommend NOT using center ball because{a slight stoking error} will happen and you won't be able to tell which side of center you "might" have hit. Maybe you didn't, maybe you did, who knows? How can you make the correct adjustment if you can't identify what he root issue of the miss is? You simply won't be able to, however, players like myself can and will beat you because of this knowledge.

I know one thing, you will not know for sure unless you start favoring one side of the cue ball and TOI is the best side because that's where your contact point is. Think about this, and it will make more and more sense.

CJ....do you recommend a certain consistent 'crispness' of the shot to create these angles and cb 'float'?

How crisp? 3 diamond distance 'stop shot' speed...for example????


Or does distance dictate the shot speed for different distances? If the speed varies, does the object ball target vary too, since the cb will deflect differently with various speeds????

thanks

 

[CJ Wiley]

using TOO or TOI you shouldn't use a "long follow through"

That means the CB doesn't have any rolling motion on it from the moment you hit the CB to the moment the CB hits the OB. the CB either "stay still" or have back spin motion while traveling.
The easiest way to picture this is hold the cue ball with your hand and move it along the cueing line. The CB stays still in your hand all the way. Do the same thing but this time turn the cb slowly backward while moving it along the cueing line. That's a flowing cb.
To achieve that motion on the cue ball you will have to hit below the center of the cb with a long follow through smooth stroke, let the cue carry the cb away. It works with TOO, TOI, and TOC.
Hope this help.
Best.
Kevin.

This is not correct, when using TOO or TOI you shouldn't use a "long follow through" - this is a misconception. A long, smooth stroke is fine for "follow shots," but not for your typical stop, draw or "floating shot" (floating is a sign of a player using TOI)

Watch this video of Mike Sigel and I and you'll see that neither one of us is using a long, smooth, follow through. We use an accelerated hit, the "follow through" is a result of reaching maximum speed precisely at cue ball impact.

CLICK HERE FOR THE FREE VIDEO EXAMPLE