Taiwan TOI

CJ Wiley said:
One other factor to consider is the new cloth and tournament equipment. I have to tone down my TOI under these conditions, however I still favor the inside.

We mostly play on cloth that is more worn, which allows a firmer hit. It's really tough to play on brand new cloth (under TV lights), I'd be surprised if anyone can play their normal game they play under normal conditions, without some adjustments.

Watch Efren's videos of when he's playing in the Philippines, you'll see him favor the inside on most of his shots....unless he's changing the angles off the cushion, playing a straight-in shot, or slow-rolling the cue ball.
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You've mentioned using TOI on the newer cloth before. I don't get many opportunities to use it, but I see the difference in the speed control. I usually play on tables that have been used a bit.

I posted last night where I thought there was a possibility of a player using TOI, but it's hard to tell exactly. That's one of the reasons it wasn't there and known to many players. The first time you mentioned it, I knew it explained much of what I saw by several top players.

When you (collective) speak on this forum about what tips you've gotten from top players, you can always expect the B players to tell you you're wrong because it's not possible and quit drinking the Koolaid. :grin-square: I've run over a hundred balls in straights around a dozen times years ago and have matched up with guys like Dallas West to Buddy Hall. I've sweated St Louie Louie and Bernie Schwartz and many other top matches. I've seen quite a bit in this game and I know when there's something of value when I see it.

Since I'm a nut hugger out of loyalty, I might as well say thanks, again for all you do for this forum. If you quit posting here, I'll probably be scarce myself and let the armchair guys have it all to themselves. :)

Best,
Mike
 
CJ Wiley said:
When you use "center ball" and miss a shot, was it because you hit the cue ball off slightly to the inside, or outside?

Think about this for a minute, how would you know?

With TOI you know every time, this is useful information, so you can fix the problem immediately......before it causes you to miss more shots the same way, or you try to fix something that's not broken.
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When you don't stroke the center line of the cue directly at the center line of the cb, but miss slightly, you are still going to hit the center of the cb. This is because the tip is rounded, and instead of the center of the tip hitting the cb, the edge now hits the cb.

This makes it look like you are hitting off to one side a little, because the center axis of the shaft is off to one side. However, if you check the cb, you will find that you still hit center cb.

So, for your TOI to work, you must hit a ways off of center axis of the shaft. Then, you run the risk of hitting too far off center, and applying inside english.

To all those that think the guys in those videos were using TOI. I'll just say this- you have now shown that you don't even know what to look for, or even how to look for it. You have no idea what you are even seeing. They are NOT using TOI. What you are seeing is the proper use of center ball axis.
 
I do know you have to tone your stoke down or the results are erratic.

Mikjary said:
You've mentioned using TOI on the newer cloth before. I don't get many opportunities to use it, but I see the difference in the speed control. I usually play on tables that have been used a bit.

I posted last night where I thought there was a possibility of a player using TOI, but it's hard to tell exactly. That's one of the reasons it wasn't there and known to many players. The first time you mentioned it, I knew it explained much of what I saw by several top players.

When you (collective) speak on this forum about what tips you've gotten from top players, you can always expect the B players to tell you you're wrong because it's not possible and quit drinking the Koolaid. :grin-square: I've run over a hundred balls in straights around a dozen times years ago and have matched up with guys like Dallas West to Buddy Hall. I've sweated St Louie Louie and Bernie Schwartz and many other top matches. I've seen quite a bit in this game and I know when there's something of value when I see it.

Since I'm a nut hugger out of loyalty, I might as well say thanks, again for all you do for this forum. If you quit posting here, I'll probably be scarce myself and let the armchair guys have it all to themselves. :)

Best,
Mike
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This new cloth requires a special type of game, one without much of a stroke.

We used Simonis 860 back in the mid 90s and it wasn't nearly as fast as it is today. I heard they have put a cheaper, synthetic material in it, although that's just rumor at this point. I do know you have to tone your stoke down or the results are erratic.

My favorite part of the game that are no longer present are:

1) The Two Way Shot (offensive shot with a defensive element)

2) Slower Cloth (so you actually had to have a stroke if straight in on the wrong side of the table.

3) A table (rack) that had been "tapped in" so the corner ball or 9 Ball doesn't head straight in the corner pocket. The players used to make sure this was done regularly.

4) Being able to go for a shot, and also play safe behind a ball(s) - the "jump stick" has taken this away as well, and this is a huge part of the 9 Ball game.

5) The sound of a well hit shot going into a Gold Crown pocket (remember that?)

6) Battling your opponent for the first shot (one-foul replaced this with ball-in-hand)

7) Opponents that would try to wear you out. (remember the 12-24 hour sessions?)

8) The break NOT being 80% of the game (do we really need krypton break cues?)

9) A cue ball with a blue dot or circle on it (now they use a practice ball with poka dots all over it - wtf?)

10) Respect - this probably has something to do with the dress code and overall attitude. I went down and played in a big tournament, in the finals there was NO ONE watching. After the first set the players made a deal, and split the money. This simply never happened in the era of Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel,Strickland and "The Miz" - I guess I'm literally one of the last of the "old school," the new school has very few teachers. .
 
Picture a flat tip centered on the vertical axis of the ball & at the equator touching the ball.

Now move it straight to the side 2 to 6 millimeters. Since it is flat it still touches the ball at the cross centers.

Now do the same with a radiused tip. As soon as it is moved to the side it loses contact with the ball & must be moved forward to again make contact with the ball.

It will not make contact at the cross centers but instead will make contact offcenter & on the 'side' of the ball.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Picture a flat tip centered on the vertical axis of the ball & at the equator touching the ball.

Now move it straight to the side 2 to 6 millimeters. Since it is flat it still touches the ball at the cross centers.

Now do the same with a radiused tip. As soon as it is moved to the side it loses contact with the ball & must be moved forward to again make contact with the ball.

It will not make contact at the cross centers but instead will make contact offcenter & on the 'side' of the ball.
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It's probably too late now, but it might be worth a try to try and get a refund on that three years of physics you took.
 
Neil said:
It's probably too late now, but it might be worth a try to try and get a refund on that three years of physics you took.
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If the tip contact patch is 3mm wide or in diameter & if you move 3mm off center, where is the center of the 3mm contact patch?

One does not need physics just some common sense.

Move 1mm & the center of contact is still off center even if the patch still contacts the center by 1/2mm.

That's still a bit of squirt & bit of spin or should I say a 'Touch'.
 
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the road players used to say "center's for suckers"

Neil said:
When you don't stroke the center line of the cue directly at the center line of the cb, but miss slightly, you are still going to hit the center of the cb. This is because the tip is rounded, and instead of the center of the tip hitting the cb, the edge now hits the cb.

This makes it look like you are hitting off to one side a little, because the center axis of the shaft is off to one side. However, if you check the cb, you will find that you still hit center cb.

So, for your TOI to work, you must hit a ways off of center axis of the shaft. Then, you run the risk of hitting too far off center, and applying inside english.

To all those that think the guys in those videos were using TOI. I'll just say this- you have now shown that you don't even know what to look for, or even how to look for it. You have no idea what you are even seeing. They are NOT using TOI. What you are seeing is the proper use of center ball axis.
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It's the "touch" of inside, not the "sight" of inside. The only way someone can tell is by the after contact reaction of the cue ball.

The system of TOI is used to teach a player to have a feel for the pocket, which is vital to be a great shot-maker. I did it in front the greatest pool minds for years and all they could say was "he's doing something different, and we can't tell what it is".

I was using TOI, and other champions used TOO - I use and teach TOI because the tip is on the same side as the cue ball's contact point, for me this fits my eye. Efren also prefers using the inside of the cue ball, that's why he can stun the ball so well.

Remember, only 20-30% of players will choose TOI, however, they can use many of the same principles if they prefer TOO. I would just highly recommend NOT using "center ball" as a player's relative tip target.......the road players used to say "center's for suckers" - and I still to this day have not seen a champion prefer center ball.
 
CJ Wiley said:
It's the "touch" of inside, not the "sight" of inside. The only way someone can tell is by the after contact reaction of the cue ball.

The system of TOI is used to teach a player to have a feel for the pocket, which is vital to be a great shot-maker. I did it in front the greatest pool minds for years and all they could say was "he's doing something different, and we can't tell what it is".

I was using TOI, and other champions used TOO - I use and teach TOI because the tip is on the same side as the cue ball's contact point, for me this fits my eye. Efren also prefers using the inside of the cue ball, that's why he can stun the ball so well.

Remember, only 20-30% of players will choose TOI, however, they can use many of the same principles if they prefer TOO. I would just highly recommend NOT using "center ball" as a player's relative tip target.......the road players used to say "center's for suckers" - and I still to this day have not seen a champion prefer center ball.
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That is why I plan my shots to use "inside" every time I have the opportunity. I only go outside when inside won't work (change angles, clusters, etc.).

Aloha.
 
HawaiianEye said:
That is why I plan my shots to use "inside" every time I have the opportunity. I only go outside when inside won't work (change angles, clusters, etc.).

Aloha.
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I'd have to agree with this. I used to have the outside mindset until I actually looked at the other side of the cue ball.

It only existed for unnatural position as far as I was concerned. I immediately noticed much better speed control of the cue ball and tighter patterns. I threaded the needle for shape rather than running around the table and racking up frequent flyer mileage.

One thing that struck me about CJ's game was his creation of shape not using traditional patterns. His speed control allows him to cross position zones and fall into a narrow shape area. I never dared to try these routes and even avoided them by going with a bigger stroke.

Years ago, I used to watch Dave Yeager torture people and rarely move the cue ball more than a few feet on most shots. He had the cue ball on a string and would put it places that made me and many others scratch our heads. Until recently, it was a question about his technique that never got answered. He would always joke and lead me on with some cryptic message, but never let on he was doing anything different.

He was so good at camouflaging his method of TOI, that he would even cross over the cue ball while stroking it. He would cue left and get right spin on some shots, then cue left and get left spin on the next. :confused: But that cue ball floated like it was too heavy to move.

This all has moved my game to relying more on the inside routes for position. Before, I wouldn't even have considered it and tried to stroke out of bad shape. TOI is just one part of an inside game, but a strong one.

Best,
Mike
 
He ran 17 racks in a row on a bar table and I was a tournament that he made 7 balls

Mikjary said:
I'd have to agree with this. I used to have the outside mindset until I actually looked at the other side of the cue ball.

It only existed for unnatural position as far as I was concerned. I immediately noticed much better speed control of the cue ball and tighter patterns. I threaded the needle for shape rather than running around the table and racking up frequent flyer mileage.

One thing that struck me about CJ's game was his creation of shape not using traditional patterns. His speed control allows him to cross position zones and fall into a narrow shape area. I never dared to try these routes and even avoided them by going with a bigger stroke.

Years ago, I used to watch Dave Yeager torture people and rarely move the cue ball more than a few feet on most shots. He had the cue ball on a string and would put it places that made me and many others scratch our heads. Until recently, it was a question about his technique that never got answered. He would always joke and lead me on with some cryptic message, but never let on he was doing anything different.

He was so good at camouflaging his method of TOI, that he would even cross over the cue ball while stroking it. He would cue left and get right spin on some shots, then cue left and get left spin on the next. :confused: But that cue ball floated like it was too heavy to move.

This all has moved my game to relying more on the inside routes for position. Before, I wouldn't even have considered it and tried to stroke out of bad shape. TOI is just one part of an inside game, but a strong one.

Best,
Mike
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Dave Yeager was a monster, not just in size, in game.

He ran 17 racks in a row on a bar table and I was a tournament that he made 7 balls on the break, and was hooked by the 9 Ball on the only ball left on the table.

Dave also was great with the big cue ball, and mud ball. Many of the greatest TOI type players were masters with the big ball (Omaha John, Matlock, JR Weldon, etc).

They used to describe it "I've got it on a string," referencing their floating cue ball and how it's angles were straight, rather than angled from spin.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Dave Yeager was a monster, not just in size, in game.

He ran 17 racks in a row on a bar table and I was a tournament that he made 7 balls on the break, and was hooked by the 9 Ball on the only ball left on the table.

Dave also was great with the big cue ball, and mud ball. Many of the greatest TOI type players were masters with the big ball (Omaha John, Matlock, JR Weldon, etc).

They used to describe it "I've got it on a string," referencing their floating cue ball and how it's angles were straight, rather than angled from spin.
Click to expand...

He was a world class ball jumper, too. When we matched up, the first thing he did was roll out to a jump shot. When he saw I could jump a ball (before jump cues), he rolled out to a bank. :) Offense or go home!

He had a fantastic break. If you could take the break from him, you had a chance. I used to sit and watch him string racks effortlessly for the cash. It really was a pisser to watch him talk to people as he moved around the table joking with the rail and hit you with a 5 pack.

He was also a world class banker. He was always in danger of breaking and running out full racks. We called him, "Ichabod" because he looked like Ichabod Crane. Tall and thin with a giant white man Afro. We also called him, "the Univac 1000", because computers hadn't really come into their own yet. He was the closest thing to a ball making machine we'd ever seen.

He never gave up his secrets. Now that I know, if I see him again, he's gonna hear about it. :grin-square: Bastitch!

Best,
Mike
 
411789.jpg

Best,
Mike
 
Did Don McCoy ever come around during this time?

Mikjary said:
He was a world class ball jumper, too. When we matched up, the first thing he did was roll out to a jump shot. When he saw I could jump a ball (before jump cues), he rolled out to a bank. :) Offense or go home!

He had a fantastic break. If you could take the break from him, you had a chance. I used to sit and watch him string racks effortlessly for the cash. It really was a pisser to watch him talk to people as he moved around the table joking with the rail and hit you with a 5 pack.

He was also a world class banker. He was always in danger of breaking and running out full racks. We called him, "Ichabod" because he looked like Ichabod Crane. Tall and thin with a giant white man Afro. We also called him, "the Univac 1000", because computers hadn't really come into their own yet. He was the closest thing to a ball making machine we'd ever seen.

He never gave up his secrets. Now that I know, if I see him again, he's gonna hear about it. :grin-square: Bastitch!

Best,
Mike
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Did Don McCoy ever come around during this time? He is from Des Moines.

Omaha John played Dave a few times, it was a really tough game, for both of them.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Did Don McCoy ever come around during this time? He is from Des Moines.

Omaha John played Dave a few times, it was a really tough game, for both of them.
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He came by, but was too well known. Dave slipped in alone with his wife, under the radar and beat every living human, spotting them whatever they wanted. She racked for him and would then go sit down until the next game.

Eventually he got asked to play and by the time it was all over, the pros who played in the room were refusing spots from him. The guys who thought he looked and acted like a rube from the cornfields were now asking to tie his shoes. :grin-square:

Shuput was in his league unless Dave hit a gear. At you guys' level, the match's outcome was always in doubt if somebody got a gear. :cool:

Best,
Mike
 
Didn't somebody on here say earlier that they thought these guys were B players? The young guy with the fancy hairdo is the younger KO brother.

I guess they have never heard of the "KO Train". Forget "Soul Train"...the "KO Train" is what's happening in pool today.

These brothers may be the two best players in the world on any day of the week. I'll take them over any other "real" brothers playing today.

These guys play STRONG! Look at the field they TOOK OUT in order to come up to play each other in the finals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTHzbWR3dYo
 
I posted, that after watching just a few racks, not knowing who they were, I said they were at least B level pros. That means not top tier, A level. After watching more racks, they would probably have changed my mind.

I still don't know who they are, just what I've heard. My opinion is formed after watching a short race, unbiased with their reputation. B level pro is a long way from a B player.

I watched the 9 ball part of the video a second time and still have the same opinion. There isn't enough there to show me they are some of the best in the world.

Best,
Mike
 
HawaiianEye said:
Didn't somebody on here say earlier that they thought these guys were B players? The young guy with the fancy hairdo is the younger KO brother.

I guess they have never heard of the "KO Train". Forget "Soul Train"...the "KO Train" is what's happening in pool today.

These brothers may be the two best players in the world on any day of the week. I'll take them over any other "real" brothers playing today.

These guys play STRONG! Look at the field they TOOK OUT in order to come up to play each other in the finals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTHzbWR3dYo
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The could be however I wouldn't call the TOI players

1
 
Mikjary said:
I posted, that after watching just a few racks, not knowing who they were, I said they were at least B level pros. That means not top tier, A level. After watching more racks, they would probably have changed my mind.

I still don't know who they are, just what I've heard. My opinion is formed after watching a short race, unbiased with their reputation. B level pro is a long way from a B player.
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So what level are these 2 players ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGZd3CBa0vQ

:D
 
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