If the ball is round and properly centered, that's true. Many balls aren't either. Also the glass has to be a little better than window glass.
Thanks to the A-Hole who recommended using a +/-.005 machinist level for my table...
- Thread starter ktrepal85
- Start date
*****Bingo*****
What he said
I think I played on a level table once, a week later it was crooked like the rest of them.
The fun part of pool is figuring out the table. I like a table with bad rolls, holes, lumps, bad rails, dirty balls. It makes it easier to play on bad tables with my warped shafts. I really don't see a problem if you are a pool player.
A new cloth is nice to look at.
I am happy if I make 1 in a row with ball in hand.
2strong4u
Banned
If a pane of regular thickness glass is laid on a warped slate, wouldn't it warp? I like your theory though, just not sure it would work.
My table was level but now the intersection of two of the pieces of slate are off a little on one side causing a small bump and local area slope. Any idea what might have caused this? I hate to take it all apart again and start over but that looks like what I need to do. The table sits on a thin strip of glue down carpet tile. I am also thinking I need to cut the carpet out beneath the legs.
Your thoughts would be appreciated, you seem to have a lot more experience about this than I do.
I'm not a machinist but worked with 100's of them nor an Engineer but worked with 1000's of them.
Bob Jewett stated the Minimum Standard Specs for slates. I'm sure Diamond, Brunswick, and any quality manufacturer TRIES to beat these minimum specs. After all slate can move after and during machining.
With most things in metrology your standard must be more accurate than what's being measured. Accuracy of the calibration equipment is normally at least 4X that of the equipment being calibrated.
There's nothing wrong with having a calibration device (level in this case) with an accuracy greater than 4X the spec for slate. That being said, if you're wanting to achieve absolute perfection you will face considerable frustration as mentioned earlier. Your slate isn't absolutely perfect. If you look at Starrett's granite surfaces and the spec for Flatness, the tolerances increase with the dimension/size of the surface. Again absolute perfection is nearly impossible even with this product. Perfection here would also be un-affordable as well if even achievable.
Choosing a level for this subject is limited to what's available. The Starrett 98 or similar from Mitutoyo, Fowler, .... is appropriate.
I'm on the fence with the pane of glass method. If the slate sags you may not notice or is crowned you'll also not notice and go crazy trying to level that one. Other than that your really just taking an average across the surface. Maybe that's ok but doesn't seem right. I also see putting a precision level on top of a 4' carpenters level in the same light.
If you're a nerd like myself, its an interesting trail back to the ultimate standard. Take click style torque wrenches with +- 4% accuracy (ANSI Spec). They're calibrated using a +-1% transducer and Mechanical loader. To calibrate the calibration transducer an arm loaded with various physical weights is used, which are calibrated to +-.25% of stated weight. I'm not certain how these weights are calibrated but speculate NIST uses their Pivot Labs and takes a consensus comparing against their "perfect" pound weigh. Each Pivot Lab also considers their exact GPS location since a pound at 100 Main Street Cleveland, OH will not weigh a Pound at 100 Main St. Sidney, Australia.
Bob Jewett stated the Minimum Standard Specs for slates. I'm sure Diamond, Brunswick, and any quality manufacturer TRIES to beat these minimum specs. After all slate can move after and during machining.
With most things in metrology your standard must be more accurate than what's being measured. Accuracy of the calibration equipment is normally at least 4X that of the equipment being calibrated.
There's nothing wrong with having a calibration device (level in this case) with an accuracy greater than 4X the spec for slate. That being said, if you're wanting to achieve absolute perfection you will face considerable frustration as mentioned earlier. Your slate isn't absolutely perfect. If you look at Starrett's granite surfaces and the spec for Flatness, the tolerances increase with the dimension/size of the surface. Again absolute perfection is nearly impossible even with this product. Perfection here would also be un-affordable as well if even achievable.
Choosing a level for this subject is limited to what's available. The Starrett 98 or similar from Mitutoyo, Fowler, .... is appropriate.
I'm on the fence with the pane of glass method. If the slate sags you may not notice or is crowned you'll also not notice and go crazy trying to level that one. Other than that your really just taking an average across the surface. Maybe that's ok but doesn't seem right. I also see putting a precision level on top of a 4' carpenters level in the same light.
If you're a nerd like myself, its an interesting trail back to the ultimate standard. Take click style torque wrenches with +- 4% accuracy (ANSI Spec). They're calibrated using a +-1% transducer and Mechanical loader. To calibrate the calibration transducer an arm loaded with various physical weights is used, which are calibrated to +-.25% of stated weight. I'm not certain how these weights are calibrated but speculate NIST uses their Pivot Labs and takes a consensus comparing against their "perfect" pound weigh. Each Pivot Lab also considers their exact GPS location since a pound at 100 Main Street Cleveland, OH will not weigh a Pound at 100 Main St. Sidney, Australia.
Well, I would thank that guy for saving you about $800.00 bucks,
What your screaming for is a Master Level, cost about $900.00
199Z W/SLC Master Precision Level from Starrett that does .0005 verse a Machinist level
What your screaming for is a Master Level, cost about $900.00
199Z W/SLC Master Precision Level from Starrett that does .0005 verse a Machinist level
Maybe ask this in the Table Mechanic section. As I posted earlier, the Starrett 98 is the standard level for mechanics around here, and they are graduated at 0.005" per foot (spec's are in links posted).
I do agree about getting the bubble dead center all over the table, but mine was maybe 1/2-1 grad or less out all over and it plays very straight.
Dave
Maybe for you, but I've been using the Starrett 98 8" levels on pool tables for over 32 years and would never consider using any to else. To frame level a pool table, it only takes a few minutes. Leveling a multi piece slate does take longer depending on the table and the slates, but it's still only a day job.
Or save even more money by rolling balls to see if the table is level. It isn't rocket surgery.
I wonder if this was all a misunderstanding...
Can you take a picture of the level you purchased?
Can you take a picture of the level you borrowed?
Can you let us know your prior experience with pool table work?
Can you let us know your prior experience with machinist levels?
Disclaimer, I'm not a pool table mechanic, but I am fairly well versed in woodworking and machining. Something just doesn't add up here.
Calling all the mechanics who recommend a .005 inch/foot level on AZ (all of them recommend that level) "A-Holes" is pretty harsh. You need more than just saying they were wrong if you are going to use such strong language in your post.
Yes and no as it depends on where the warp is as the glass I use is 3/16" thick. It will become obvious if it is all straight to a point and then there is a spot that simply won't level without throwing everything else off.
Example: 2 corners on the same end cause the ball to roll to the center of the rail or 2 balls from the side pockets run to opposite corners.
Bob criticized this method by mentioning imperfect balls and glass, which can be a consideration. Which is why I personally use the Super Aramith Pro balls as their tolerance and specifications for that set is probably the highest in the industry along with the 3/16" glass in the lengths I use. Using the same high quality ball multiple ways and in different areas of the glass, as well as using different piece of glass, bring his concerns WAY down. In addition, you learn that when you put a ball down and it very slowly begins moving and never really picks up much speed, if any, that it is quite level. Change the glass and do it again and it is enough that a very slow moving ball on felt is going to be going as straight as the felt will allow it.
Ask and you shall recieve:
-Picture is attached. The smaller level is the one I bought. It's a Starrett 98-8.
-Prior experience: I bought an old valley. Replaced the rails and cloth on my own without any problems. I'm no table mechanic but I did my research and it was pretty simple. I can't say I have any experience with a machinists level but I don't think any is required lol. I know how to calibrate it and read it...it's not rocket science lol.
Need anything else??
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Looking at the picture both levels show the table low on the left side. Guess i don't under stand the problem, I used an 8" Starrett 98 to level my gold crown II and also used to level the Dynamo bar Box at work both tables are level. Also your term A-hole is pretty vaugue can you specify which A-hole your talking about? there are a lot of us on this Forum!......
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Is that your table and levels together that you had trouble with ?
If so, you are still way off -
Is this a 3 piece slate setup ?
bill