The Best Cue Case Period
- Thread starter Straight Pool
- Start date
JCIN said:
yeah but what about the french fries?
bigotry?? racisim?
Help me with this - i went back and reread the thread and the posts -
these are harsh words bigotry and racisim. Straight Pool - tell us which poster/posters are guilty? Is it Ribdoners post? I for one thought it was right on target. Am I a bigot?
Hejests also - you also claim to be ashamed of us- of which posts? educate us - so I will know it when i see it
I am sincerely curious - please tell us which of the posts is an example of racisim?
who among us is the bigot?
Help me with this - i went back and reread the thread and the posts -
these are harsh words bigotry and racisim. Straight Pool - tell us which poster/posters are guilty? Is it Ribdoners post? I for one thought it was right on target. Am I a bigot?
Hejests also - you also claim to be ashamed of us- of which posts? educate us - so I will know it when i see it
I am sincerely curious - please tell us which of the posts is an example of racisim?
who among us is the bigot?
well said Adam.i think the question is why would we pay $300 for a case made in China when we could buy a similar caes made in USA for $300.even if the cases are 100% identical,you are getting your cases made for less than 10 cents on the dollar.even if the materials cost the same,which i know they are not.you are making a killing on yours,and the money doesn't stay in the country.if you want us to buy cases made in China,you need to make the cheap,ala Vincitore for Instroke.they cost 1/3-1/4 the price and quality is a little less but close.there is no reason for us (i mean pool players not Americans) to send our money out of the country to make someone rich when we could keep the money here and help our country's economics.i saw Ron used as an example.Ron makes the case ,we pay Ron,Ron spends his money at the mall,Ron helps the economy.if you make a case as good as Ron and Ron sells the case for $300,then maybe you should consider selling your case for $150.look at the Phillipine cues.you can buy one loaded with ivory or Anboyna or Snakewood for under $500:cue that no cuemaker in America would touch for $2000.it is just the way it is,no racism or bigotry.
Strictly from an supply demand perspective
Putting all of the "import"/"made in USA" arguments aside, I think that the case will appeal to a lot of people if the price drops sunstantially, at least to somewhere below the $200 mark. If they can produce these in massive enough quantities to make it feasible to build a retail distribution channel and sell at such a lowered cost, they would do okay.
I ,like many of you, have had and loved my Fellinis and Centennials, but eventually found myself needing a case that carries 2+ cues for tournament play or just practice outings. Most avid players I know compete in tournaments today and always have a 2x4 or larger case for a break cue and a playing cue at a minimum.
The target market cannot be the guys that show up with their 1x1 import cases and a production cue on Friday nights with their girlfriends. Or, can it be if the price point and production level can meet that market demand? The days of the hustler walking into a smoky pool room looking for action with his Fellini and Richard Black are pretty much bygone. Even the roadies are running with break cues, jump cues, and a couple more customs and a sneaky pete. If they are on the down low, they will use a cheap case and a sneaky pete. I know, I tried selling 1x2 Fellinis to some of these guys at a discount and they just shrugged with no interest in such a small case.
So, what is the target market? Cue Collectors? I don't see it. They would rather get a Fellini for $100 more as a true collectible.
I have seen many Thomas cases being sold for $200 and less just to move them. I love the looks and wanted one for a long time, but now I have larger cases for less and see no need. You will never convince me that these will outsell Thomas cases unless they undercut Thomas pricing. That argument won't hold water. I just can't figure who makes up the target market here at $300 a case.
Putting all of the "import"/"made in USA" arguments aside, I think that the case will appeal to a lot of people if the price drops sunstantially, at least to somewhere below the $200 mark. If they can produce these in massive enough quantities to make it feasible to build a retail distribution channel and sell at such a lowered cost, they would do okay.
I ,like many of you, have had and loved my Fellinis and Centennials, but eventually found myself needing a case that carries 2+ cues for tournament play or just practice outings. Most avid players I know compete in tournaments today and always have a 2x4 or larger case for a break cue and a playing cue at a minimum.
The target market cannot be the guys that show up with their 1x1 import cases and a production cue on Friday nights with their girlfriends. Or, can it be if the price point and production level can meet that market demand? The days of the hustler walking into a smoky pool room looking for action with his Fellini and Richard Black are pretty much bygone. Even the roadies are running with break cues, jump cues, and a couple more customs and a sneaky pete. If they are on the down low, they will use a cheap case and a sneaky pete. I know, I tried selling 1x2 Fellinis to some of these guys at a discount and they just shrugged with no interest in such a small case.
So, what is the target market? Cue Collectors? I don't see it. They would rather get a Fellini for $100 more as a true collectible.
I have seen many Thomas cases being sold for $200 and less just to move them. I love the looks and wanted one for a long time, but now I have larger cases for less and see no need. You will never convince me that these will outsell Thomas cases unless they undercut Thomas pricing. That argument won't hold water. I just can't figure who makes up the target market here at $300 a case.
Oh boy! JB & Straight, firstly, let me say congratualtions on the new cases. They look great from the sneek peeks!
Secondly, let's get down to the nasty. JB and I had a little conversation about this on the 'supermac redone' thread. I know how to make these cases, and have, so I hope my opinion will be taken with at least a shot of saki along with that lonely grain of salt. Truth be told, most of the work involved in making these cases (Fellini's only, not addressing the Centennial's at all in this thread) is, well, mokey work. It can be taught to anyone, and performed reasonably well by anyone also. The toughest part is without a doubt, the ends. Nextly, would be hardware placing and attachment. However, I will admit your interiours may be very complicated as I have not seen them yet.
Either way, the appeal of these cases was never craftsmanship as Bob's cases were often poorly done. The appeal was I believe firstly, the sexy, simple and yet elegant design. Next was the 'custom handmade' aspect. Couple this with the fact that some of the hottest custom cuemakers of days gone by were actually pairing their cues to these cases before the customer ever took delivery, and the legend began.
Thridly, I too considered this venture. After proto's, I went as far as pricing production in foreign lands (Asia & S. America). The reason was likely the same as yours, cost. Although the numbers were attractive, I did not plan on a large operation. Thusly, that idea was out. Also, I decided these cases would be better appreciated if made by hand, and for the most part, by one man (in the spirit of Hemphil, which was my entire motivation anyway). Yet I digress, I have abandoned my point. The significantly lower production cost should be reflected in the final sales price.
Fourthly, as my cases were in similar fashion to be a tribute to our casing forefathers, I refused to proceed without the appropriate hardware. Yes, I'm talking about that damned lock. Or, sprung double hasp if you will. For me, that was the deal breaker, and to the apparent dismay of many AZers, is also the reason I've not even considered purchasing a Thomas, Engles or the likes. However, I could have gotten them custom made to exact specs, in China. Prob was minimum order was something like 5,000 units. (anybody wanna go in on some locks?
). Either way, IMHO, gotta have that lock!
Fifthly, and finally, all this BS about foreign this and that should halt. Any fool making these statements should take time to reflect on how many things you may use or own that are made in China or the likes. Really, it's quite silly to take out your issues on a small time cue case maker when you should be out picketing Wal-Mart or ANY one of the fortune 10,000 companies. And you thought your priorities were in order. And this is coming from someone so patriotic he cannot wait until the next civil war! This nation needs help, and it starts in DC, not a case maker in China.
Alright, let the onslaught begin. Everybody pile on the new guy!
Lastly, good lookin' cases, fella's!
Secondly, let's get down to the nasty. JB and I had a little conversation about this on the 'supermac redone' thread. I know how to make these cases, and have, so I hope my opinion will be taken with at least a shot of saki along with that lonely grain of salt. Truth be told, most of the work involved in making these cases (Fellini's only, not addressing the Centennial's at all in this thread) is, well, mokey work. It can be taught to anyone, and performed reasonably well by anyone also. The toughest part is without a doubt, the ends. Nextly, would be hardware placing and attachment. However, I will admit your interiours may be very complicated as I have not seen them yet.
Either way, the appeal of these cases was never craftsmanship as Bob's cases were often poorly done. The appeal was I believe firstly, the sexy, simple and yet elegant design. Next was the 'custom handmade' aspect. Couple this with the fact that some of the hottest custom cuemakers of days gone by were actually pairing their cues to these cases before the customer ever took delivery, and the legend began.
Thridly, I too considered this venture. After proto's, I went as far as pricing production in foreign lands (Asia & S. America). The reason was likely the same as yours, cost. Although the numbers were attractive, I did not plan on a large operation. Thusly, that idea was out. Also, I decided these cases would be better appreciated if made by hand, and for the most part, by one man (in the spirit of Hemphil, which was my entire motivation anyway). Yet I digress, I have abandoned my point. The significantly lower production cost should be reflected in the final sales price.
Fourthly, as my cases were in similar fashion to be a tribute to our casing forefathers, I refused to proceed without the appropriate hardware. Yes, I'm talking about that damned lock. Or, sprung double hasp if you will. For me, that was the deal breaker, and to the apparent dismay of many AZers, is also the reason I've not even considered purchasing a Thomas, Engles or the likes. However, I could have gotten them custom made to exact specs, in China. Prob was minimum order was something like 5,000 units. (anybody wanna go in on some locks?
). Either way, IMHO, gotta have that lock!Fifthly, and finally, all this BS about foreign this and that should halt. Any fool making these statements should take time to reflect on how many things you may use or own that are made in China or the likes. Really, it's quite silly to take out your issues on a small time cue case maker when you should be out picketing Wal-Mart or ANY one of the fortune 10,000 companies. And you thought your priorities were in order. And this is coming from someone so patriotic he cannot wait until the next civil war! This nation needs help, and it starts in DC, not a case maker in China.
Alright, let the onslaught begin. Everybody pile on the new guy!
Lastly, good lookin' cases, fella's!
economic reality
First, let me admit you are right that we all buy too much made overseas, made in China to be exact.
Part of buying from overseas is pure myth. A few years back there was a car made with a Chrysler emblem on one and one with a Japanese emblem on it otherwise they were identical. Both were made on the same assembly line, basically at the same time. The Japanese badged car was four thousand higher and they sold about four times as many. The assembly line was in the USA by the way.
Moving on to made in China, we have let China and other countries invade out marketplace with their government providing supports and government protections keeping America from having any chance to compete in their country. As a result American companies building their products in the US are struggling. Often they don't exist for all practical purposes both in some hi-tech and some manufacturing areas. Now we have no choice but to buy foreign when we need these things. However, buying foreign when we can buy the same thing US made for the same price is plain silly and cutting our own throats. Note where the dollar is at today. That says more than I can if I type another ten pages.
My buying policy is simple. Assuming roughly equal total costs, I buy first something made or sold locally, then in my state, then in my country, then in the industrialized world, then third world, and finally as a last resort from the nations that ultimately seek our destruction. One flaw with the global part of my policy is that more and more industrialized nations seek our destruction confusing a neat orderly progression.
I am a USA first kind of guy and make no apologies for it. Except for terribly oppressed people I would expect everyone in the world to support their own country. People could call me anti this country or that one but what I am really anti is my own government's shortsighted trade policies that has created this mess to begin with.
Hu
First, let me admit you are right that we all buy too much made overseas, made in China to be exact.
Part of buying from overseas is pure myth. A few years back there was a car made with a Chrysler emblem on one and one with a Japanese emblem on it otherwise they were identical. Both were made on the same assembly line, basically at the same time. The Japanese badged car was four thousand higher and they sold about four times as many. The assembly line was in the USA by the way.
Moving on to made in China, we have let China and other countries invade out marketplace with their government providing supports and government protections keeping America from having any chance to compete in their country. As a result American companies building their products in the US are struggling. Often they don't exist for all practical purposes both in some hi-tech and some manufacturing areas. Now we have no choice but to buy foreign when we need these things. However, buying foreign when we can buy the same thing US made for the same price is plain silly and cutting our own throats. Note where the dollar is at today. That says more than I can if I type another ten pages.
My buying policy is simple. Assuming roughly equal total costs, I buy first something made or sold locally, then in my state, then in my country, then in the industrialized world, then third world, and finally as a last resort from the nations that ultimately seek our destruction. One flaw with the global part of my policy is that more and more industrialized nations seek our destruction confusing a neat orderly progression.
I am a USA first kind of guy and make no apologies for it. Except for terribly oppressed people I would expect everyone in the world to support their own country. People could call me anti this country or that one but what I am really anti is my own government's shortsighted trade policies that has created this mess to begin with.
Hu
half fast bankr said:
I would like to say my opinion to this. I am Greek and Greece is part of European Union. As far as billiard equipment is concerned (for this we are here for, isn't it?!!), i vote 100% for USA even though we have excellent craftsmen here in Europe. I learned in my life to get the best and i will continue to do so. American cues and cases are by far the best and i have no clue that this will stop in the near or far future. I dont mind about prices. You get what you pay the old people used to say and they are right. So, as a Greek i vote definatelly for us billiard products. Thank you for listening and happy holidays to all AZers. Costas
ShootingArts said:
Well I would agree with you if you knew all the facts. And this should not be about how much or how little profit one is entitled to. I don't think one goes to a cuemaker's shop with a calculator to determine whether his profit is fair or not.
The facts are that this case is not about the cost of the labor that has gone into it but by the quality of the product. Whether the case cost five dollars to make or $200 to make is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether the quality is worth the asking price.
I took these cases to the world championships. Everyone I showed them to felt that they were of the highest quality and well worth the price. not one single person asked where they were made nor indicated that they even cared. I took orders for five cases one of which is going to a Middle Eastern prince. The person who bought it indicated to me that they only purchase things of the finest quality to give to the prince. This is an example of being judged on quality rather than place of birth.
Now, quality aside, let's talk about the environment that the cases are made in. That is what was being alluded to by "fair wages". In the factory where these cases are produced all of the personnel make about 35% higher wages than average. They are offered free housing, have full medical and dental coverage. They have a clean and safe working environment. Pretty much what every person wants from their job. The only reason that GTF has mentioned it is because I made sure to mention it to them. I wanted them to be secure in the knowledge that their cases are not made in a "sweatshop" and are made by skilled adults who are all experienced tradesmen and women.
Why does this even matter? Well frankly because China is still a big red question mark in most western people's eyes. There are a lot of horror stories associated with China and as with any other kind of news the most dramatic stories get the most press while the real success stories tend to be ignored.
So anyone who tries to associate "China" with quality and fairness and social good is already at the bottom of an enormous hill of misinformation and disinformation.
However what a lot of western people forget is that the Chinese are humans too. They are living souls who deserve everything that we have. They did not ask to be Chinese anymore than we asked to be born American.
So please try to look beyond the rhetoric and beyond the stereotypes. I make the cases here because this is where I live. I live here because it's my job to find sources for the products we want to carry and to develop products we hope to carry, and this is the place to be for that to happen.
I built cases in Germany because I lived there at the time. The cases however were no more German than I was. The mass production Instroke cases were built in the Czech Republic. Those were not German either. These cases are products of two things, Bob Hemphil's idea to put two extrusion tubes together and my ability to recreate and improve on that great design. Where that happens and what it costs should be of no matter, just as no one questions any other case or cue maker's cost to profit ratio.
half fast bankr said:Oh boy! JB & Straight, firstly, let me say congratualtions on the new cases. They look great from the sneek peeks!
Secondly, let's get down to the nasty. JB and I had a little conversation about this on the 'supermac redone' thread. I know how to make these cases, and have, so I hope my opinion will be taken with at least a shot of saki along with that lonely grain of salt. Truth be told, most of the work involved in making these cases (Fellini's only, not addressing the Centennial's at all in this thread) is, well, mokey work. It can be taught to anyone, and performed reasonably well by anyone also. The toughest part is without a doubt, the ends. Nextly, would be hardware placing and attachment. However, I will admit your interiours may be very complicated as I have not seen them yet.
Either way, the appeal of these cases was never craftsmanship as Bob's cases were often poorly done. The appeal was I believe firstly, the sexy, simple and yet elegant design. Next was the 'custom handmade' aspect. Couple this with the fact that some of the hottest custom cuemakers of days gone by were actually pairing their cues to these cases before the customer ever took delivery, and the legend began.
Thridly, I too considered this venture. After proto's, I went as far as pricing production in foreign lands (Asia & S. America). The reason was likely the same as yours, cost. Although the numbers were attractive, I did not plan on a large operation. Thusly, that idea was out. Also, I decided these cases would be better appreciated if made by hand, and for the most part, by one man (in the spirit of Hemphil, which was my entire motivation anyway). Yet I digress, I have abandoned my point. The significantly lower production cost should be reflected in the final sales price.
Fourthly, as my cases were in similar fashion to be a tribute to our casing forefathers, I refused to proceed without the appropriate hardware. Yes, I'm talking about that damned lock. Or, sprung double hasp if you will. For me, that was the deal breaker, and to the apparent dismay of many AZers, is also the reason I've not even considered purchasing a Thomas, Engles or the likes. However, I could have gotten them custom made to exact specs, in China. Prob was minimum order was something like 5,000 units. (anybody wanna go in on some locks?
Lastly, good lookin' cases, fella's!
Thank Banker!
From what I understand the cases made by Fellini (Bob Hemphill) were not made by one man. Nor were the It's George or Centennial cases. But they were certainly hand made.
I can tell you that these cases are made by hand. During the construction of the cases there is one drill and one rivet press used and every other step is completely by hand. Although you do have a pretty good idea of what it takes to make these cases I am sure that if I listed all the individual steps that we take that go a bit beyond what others do/did you might agree that these cases are well in the spirit of fine craftsmanship.
I knew going in that being just as good as wasn't going to cut it. I spent many nights going over how to improve this design. What things could I do to insure that it would meet the stringent requirements of the toughest critics on earth?
But it was more than just wanting to appease the upper echelon of the pool world, it was my own desire to elevate this "simple looking" case into another league.
It's like when a singer takes a great song and makes it greater by their particular style and flavor.
I can guarantee that it would be pretty hard to achieve this level of case without being there and developing every step. Anyone is free to try - there are thousands of factories in China who deal in bags and leather goods. They will offer a very low price to make this case. And if you pay this price you will not get this case. I think hardly anyone here remembers that 20 years ago there were many such copies of Fellinis and Centennials on the market. They were low in price and also low in quality. Most fell apart within a few weeks of ownership, hardly any lasted a year. These are the type of cases one would receive if one were to simply ask a factory to "make this".
To get a case that is anywhere near or possibly exceeds the quality of a Fellini, Centennial, or Thomas then there must be a lot of personal attention paid to the development and construction. Preferably by one who understands the pool world from both a player's perspective and from a seller's perspective. And one who understands leather and how to work it. Not an easy combination to find. However this is why I think I was chosen to do this.
I have to smile.
I think that a nice little reality show could have been made about the development of these cases - starting with the tubes and how they fit together (or don't as was the situation for a few weeks) - and ending with how to best pack them to prevent damage. I felt like one of those chefs opening a new restaurant who is overwhelmed by all the details, with this and that going wrong at every stage.
You're right about the latch. I discussed this aspect with the clients and I could have also had the latch made - for less than 5000 units
(advantage of being here...) But I convinced them that the idea is to be better and distinct from the original while maintaining the look and the integrity. So the latch I chose serves that function and it has one more advantage over the orginal - if it should fail then it is easily replaced without tearing the case apart.In the end we have achieved a top quality product. It is the "Best Case Period" in the eyes of the GTF folks. This is because they already considered the Fellini style to be the best balance of protection and function. Is it really the best case? I say it depends on the criteria you are using. In my opinion, and this is one formed by experience, it is the best of this style of case to exist. It has many protective features that come from my Instroke experience. I think that most who end up with this case will be quite happy with the way it works and protects.
Banker, I hope that you too will continue to develop this case. I can see that you appreciate what it takes to make it and it will good to have more folks to represent this particular style in the case world.
I don't have a Ron Thomas case but I have seen a few and they look very sharp. These cases look equally nice but I would choose a Ron Thomas case over these for a couple reasons... one is that every Ron Thomas case is made by Ron Thomas, am I right in this assumption? If I can get a hand crafted case by an expert case maker such as Ron Thomas why would I be inclined to purchase one made overseas for the same price, even if the quality is identical?
I would be tempted to buy one of these if they were cheaper than a Ron Thomas case, and the quality was the same. I think a lot of people would buy these if they were $200 and under. I'd personally rather spend the extra $100 to have it built here and customized to my specs and guarantee the quality.
From reading a lot of the comments on here it's seems most people are not in favor of the cases. Personally when I read the opening thread all I could think of was this...
"This guy is setting up a shop in China to produce cases signficantly cheaper than he can here so he can make enormous profits. The cases are being hyped up to be then next great thing but are prolly average."
I know this may not be what all people thought when they read it but that's what I thought. I'm betting by the responses though that a lot of people agree with me.
Usually when I buy products I want the best I can get with what money I can afford to spend. The simple fact is that many countries are good at making different things. China and Japan make good reliable cars and excellent electronics. That's just the plain truth. So when I shop for electronics I usually buy a product from one of the Asian countries. Cues and cases I think we all agree that the US has a monopoly on the market... because they are the best, simply put. So, that's where my money goes and will continue to go.
Anyway, this is all just stream of consciousness...
Jim
I would be tempted to buy one of these if they were cheaper than a Ron Thomas case, and the quality was the same. I think a lot of people would buy these if they were $200 and under. I'd personally rather spend the extra $100 to have it built here and customized to my specs and guarantee the quality.
From reading a lot of the comments on here it's seems most people are not in favor of the cases. Personally when I read the opening thread all I could think of was this...
"This guy is setting up a shop in China to produce cases signficantly cheaper than he can here so he can make enormous profits. The cases are being hyped up to be then next great thing but are prolly average."
I know this may not be what all people thought when they read it but that's what I thought. I'm betting by the responses though that a lot of people agree with me.
Usually when I buy products I want the best I can get with what money I can afford to spend. The simple fact is that many countries are good at making different things. China and Japan make good reliable cars and excellent electronics. That's just the plain truth. So when I shop for electronics I usually buy a product from one of the Asian countries. Cues and cases I think we all agree that the US has a monopoly on the market... because they are the best, simply put. So, that's where my money goes and will continue to go.
Anyway, this is all just stream of consciousness...
Jim
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sounds good
John,
What you have to say does sound good. However, we are all human and begrudge people huge mark-ups. Also, ultimately I have found that regardless of what I pay for products that are made cheaply, in the end they are cheaply made products. Speaking of machinery, I find that it is made of inferior quality metals with very poor tolerances so that the machines that I purchased fairly cheaply that looked so nice on the outside were lousy buys because of what was underneath the surface.
I could be wrong but I suspect that the same people that wanted to cut costs on labor also wanted to cut costs on the leather and the hardware. Cheaper leather usually means cheaper tanning which can lead to the leather not holding up and cheap hardware causes grief also. Regardless of the cost of bringing the cases over here and marketing them, cheaply made cases are likely to be cheap quality cases regardless of what they look like when new and not stand the test of time.
The cases may be great but I'll remain a skeptic until I see what is left of some after they have been toted around a few years. I don't think I will have many to look at though because I think Chinese cases for the price of cases made in the USA are going to be a hard sell. Your timing might be perfect, few remember that the Japanese penetrated this market with junk including junk vehicles and then increased quality until some consider Japanese made to be better quality than American made today. Maybe you can convince people that this is a quality case from somewhere not known for quality. Which begs the question: What kind of guarantee are they going to offer with the case? Where will hardware have to come from if some breaks as you mentioned? Where does a damaged or defective case have to be returned to?
Hu
John,
What you have to say does sound good. However, we are all human and begrudge people huge mark-ups. Also, ultimately I have found that regardless of what I pay for products that are made cheaply, in the end they are cheaply made products. Speaking of machinery, I find that it is made of inferior quality metals with very poor tolerances so that the machines that I purchased fairly cheaply that looked so nice on the outside were lousy buys because of what was underneath the surface.
I could be wrong but I suspect that the same people that wanted to cut costs on labor also wanted to cut costs on the leather and the hardware. Cheaper leather usually means cheaper tanning which can lead to the leather not holding up and cheap hardware causes grief also. Regardless of the cost of bringing the cases over here and marketing them, cheaply made cases are likely to be cheap quality cases regardless of what they look like when new and not stand the test of time.
The cases may be great but I'll remain a skeptic until I see what is left of some after they have been toted around a few years. I don't think I will have many to look at though because I think Chinese cases for the price of cases made in the USA are going to be a hard sell. Your timing might be perfect, few remember that the Japanese penetrated this market with junk including junk vehicles and then increased quality until some consider Japanese made to be better quality than American made today. Maybe you can convince people that this is a quality case from somewhere not known for quality. Which begs the question: What kind of guarantee are they going to offer with the case? Where will hardware have to come from if some breaks as you mentioned? Where does a damaged or defective case have to be returned to?
Hu
JB Cases said:
masonh said:
i think your point is confused. you are not talking about quality of the product, rather u base it on location. it isnt racism or bigotry to not want to buy stuff from out of the country, but telling ppl to "fuc off" (not referring to you) purely because they live in another country or try to sell a product thats made out of the country is (to a certain extent).
also, what does the fact that some fancy cue made in the philippines only costing under $500 have to do with anything? vincitores made in china cost a lot less than an instroke or any american made case as well. if u want a quality product, u pay what it costs. edwin reyes and viatorre made cues in the philippines but i think u will be hard pressed to have them make u a fancy cue for under $500. so even in the philippines there are cuemakers who charge around what us cuemakers would charge. so why cant someone making quality cases in china do the same?
another thing some posters seem to constantly bring up is the minimum wage/sweatshop wage argument. i fail to see how this has anything to do with this discussion at all. everyone seems to want to support american case makers which is perfectly fine, but why knock a case maker in china? the people making the cases in china earn a wage, whether it be a sweatshop wage or a really high wage is irrelevant. if they produce a quality product thats all that matters, i dont see what their wages have to do with anything. it's like when u buy a production cue, u pay retail price, dealers get it at half price, and the company who makes it gets the dealer price minus the cost of the cue as profit. on cues like the schon stl-1, dealers pay like 250 (it obviously costs a lot less to make since schon has to make money from that $250) for it while u pay 463. this extra 213 dollars does not make the product any better, and the cost of the product is significantly less than 250 as well. essentially, a $100 or less cue is being sold or 463 but i dont see anyone ever complaining about that. but every time john tries to sell a case everyone always talks about how its made in china so it should be cheaper etc. etc. if u want quality, u pay for it, it doesnt matter where its made.
also, i dont see how the wage argument holds since american case makers dont have a salary. basically their annual guaranteed salary is 0. i dont think case makers like jack or ron (or any cuemaker) give themselves an hourly wage. they might view each hour of work as being worth a certain amount, but they dont write down how many hours they work each day then give themselves a paycheque based on that every 2 weeks. they only earn money if they are able to sell their cases, unlike the workers associated with john's cases who are paid regardless of whether or not a case sells. so if the wage case makers in america earns is 0, why pay 200 dollars for a case? u can say that the cost of their materials is higher than in china but the difference is not much. i think most people are mislead to overestimate material costs in cues and cases alike. that's not to say that they're not worth anything, but the materials really dont cost as much as people like to think they do.
china seems to be viewed negatively on this board. i think a lot of ppl who have never been to china view it as a 3rd world country which is gobbling up the worlds resources....which is true to a certain extent. but then again dont tell me britain, canada, usa, and any other developed nation didnt do the same thing years earlier. they just did it back when no one cared about the environment. as well, anyone who's been to beijing, shanghai, hong kong, macau etc. will tell you that it's just as advance as north america, if not more so. for example, its still impossible to get cell phone reception in the subway in toronto but it's been possible to get reception on the subway in hong kong for years now not to mention 3g service.
if u want to keep money in america then thats great, everyone should support their own country. but theres no need for comments that criticize the products of other countries when you have not even seen the product yet...thats just plain ignorance.
one last thing, if u're gonna criticize a product, criticize it's quality and not the country it's made in or the profit margins it produces. those two things have nothing to do with whether or not the product is good enough to use and made with quality.
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ShootingArts said:
You have my personal guarantee that the hardware, the leather and the fabric and the tubing are as good as are found anywhere in the world.
The folks who wanted these cases built were not concerned with cost, at least not in the sense that they were looking for the cheapest price.
I have personally selected all the leather myself, went to the leather markets and hand selected the leather. Leather prices here are about on par with prices anywhere else in the world. The leather used on these cases is as good as that found anywhere else in the world.
These are not my cases but I can tell you that the GTF people have a support system that will take care of ANY problem on them. I have built these cases to hold up but I know that even with the strictest of controls that some will fail. The latches will be easily available from GTF and are EASILY replaceable by anyone with a small screwdriver. Which I think we would all agree is a much needed improvement over the type of latches which are riveted to the body and impossible to fix without disassembling the case.
I can guarantee that these are not cheaply made and that they will stand the test of time. I have done many things to improve the construction and prevent time's ravages.
Many of you are quite familiar with these style of cases where the ends are split, the leather is coming off, the interiors are a mess, the tubes are cracked and so on. I have done things in the construction to prevent these things from occurring.
Starting with the tubing itself. Being at the manufacturer's place I was able to work with them on the formulation of the plastic to make tubes that are firm yet not brittle. The endcaps are the same, after much trial and error we came up with a formula that renders them practically indestructible. At least I couldn't break them with a very large hammer nor with about twenty drops from six feet and a fully loaded case.
Then onto the leather ends. Not only are they folded over and seamed correctly but they are then glued again on the seams by way of using a needle to make sure that the seams are truly glued together. Then the ends are stapled in so that there is no chance for them to come up at all.
The tubes are covered in moisture resistant fabric so that there is no chance for the cue to touch plastic. The fabric is backed by foam rubber to form a vacuum to protect the cues against excess moisture. On the interior the dividers have foam rubber sewn in to hold the cues in place and not allow them to fall out. The cues are stopped from rattling as well so there is no lateral movement when the case is shaken. This protects the cue parts from each other should the case be dropped and in general transit so they aren't bouncing in the case.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with cutting costs. My clients are people who have deep pockets and wanted to see the Fellini style recreated. They also have certain ideas about the Centennial/George style that they want to pursue. They chose me because they believed that I could do the job they wanted. There was no discussion of cost or target prices when we were developing the case. Certainly the cost to them had to be in line with their sales goals and obviously as the project has come to actual product they are pleased with the price.
It is however a mistake to simply assume that the cases are cheap or cheaply made simply because they come from China. By the same token it is a mistake to assume that every cue priced at $1000 is well made simply because it was made in America. These are not cheap cases that can be had cheaply. They are cases that rival anything in the world for craftsmanship and are priced accordingly. Too low if you count the cost of my DNA that is in them
Markets almost always reward quality regardless of origin. We can debate the what-ifs all day but in the end it is the case itself which will stand or fail on it's own merit. And I can tell you that the case has already passed inspection and scrutiny by some of the most knowledgeable, well respected and well known members of the billiard world. Otherwise there would be nothing to announce.
I think that the pictures showed so little of the case that it's not possible to make any kind of judgement. Screw the politics... but I'll join a group who promotes buying from local craftsmen especially given that it does appear that the Chinese craftsmen who make these cases might be being denied a fair percentage of the profit.
ribdoner said:
That is funny.
