The Biggest reason Lower level players can't improve ????

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The eye fix is the same for everyone.

I believe eye dominance plays a huge roll in lower level players but as you mention, nothing works if you can't hit the ball correctly.

IMHO, there are people with naturally good stances that can't see the ball and there are people who can see the ball but can't swing a stick straight to save their life. Not trying to argue or disagree but I do not believe there is one simple fix for everyone, there are just too many variables.

They just don't know it a very few people understand it enough to really help players everywhere. It's simple to fix but at the same time very difficult.

First the dominant eye has to be identified absolutely correctly.

Then the degree of dominance needs to be determined.

Then the stance has to be adjusted to accommodate the new correct eye position.

Then the player needs to learn how to come down into the shot and not slip over to where they are used to coming down.

There are so many things to this that are just pool related in general and need to be fixed. Things that need to be done to make this transition work well. That many teachers that I know that have tried to teach it just kind of give up. They just get stuck because there are so many scenarios that enter into the correction.

It took me 10 years to perfect this and still I have players that try to trash my hard work in 10 minutes with a few careless words knowing absolutely nothing about what they are talking about.

I guess it is their right to express that they don't understand it at all by dissing it a junk.

But to the players that learn how to do this their game is in for some real fun. The poolhall will be busier because they will want to play more. Instead of leaving immediately after league they will hang out and play some because it is fun to be able to see what your doing and be able to do a little something with those balls on the table.

Getting those eyes right just makes the game a little more fun for everyone.
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
disagree

Some are born with it, some never get it

For those who want to get better at pool I'd recommend looking beyond cueing techniques and try to understand the attitudes and beliefs that champions choose. This isn't one of them. Champions believe that with the right outlook and work ethic they can achieve success. It's up to each of us who we want to model our outlook after. 2 ball runners, 20 ball runners, or 200 ball runners. I don't know this person and am not disrespecting him, his opinion, or his pool game.

As for Geno, I understand he phrased this a bit provocatively because it's true that at the beginner level there are many leaks that might be the biggest for individual players. Lack of focus and effort, lack of table time, lack of knowledge, few role models to demonstrate good play, poor fundamentals, and so on. What I CAN say is that for anyone to play well they have to be able to set up on the ball correctly so the cue ball goes where you think it should. Otherwise you get inconsistent results, inconsistent feedback, and you feel tight and awkward on every shot.

This isn't a problem for everyone. Some people naturally figure out the right way to sight, usually because they are positioned exactly under one eye and they put in a ton of hours on the table. I have my cue between my eyes but further to the left of my chin it can be very tricky, especially as I am right handed and I can easily lose my sighting if I drop down on the shot carelessly. For guys like me what Geno has to say is water to a an in the desert. I'm fortunate enough to live in Geno's home town and we have played many, many, many times over the years. Last time we got together to play I tossed him an extra $50 just for answering a few questions I had about some things that were bothering me. I apologized that I could never pay him fairly for all he'd done for me, but I would at least show him some acknowledgement!

PS- for anyone that comes to MN for a 3 day bootcamp, if you are interested in what Geno is teaching I am happy to loop him in for a few hours of our session.
 

PRED

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For those who want to get better at pool I'd recommend looking beyond cueing techniques and try to understand the attitudes and beliefs that champions choose.

Nonetheless, you either have "it" or you don't. No amount of boot camps will make someone who does not have what the champions have a champion.

It's like Golf. You make great strides until you don't and that is the end of the great strides.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my heros.
Silver Member
Some of the great player of yester year started playing Pool stand on a Milk Box, or Chair. Th3ey contoured their bodies to improvise, and adapt. Later in life they still line up funny, they experts on form would point out. But they were still great players.

The reason was Pool was their passion, their job, they were at work 8 hours or more as day, practicing, playing, gambling, and make their living off the game.

If this "Perfect Thing" is so great how come Geno is not as well know as Strickland, Archer, Frost Fisher, Efrin, Joe's, and the other greats?
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree with you Lou, but I didn't see in the thread the real reason that lower level players don't improve.

THEY DONT PRACTICE and SPEND THE TIME AT THE TABLE.

They argue over handicaps and other bull$hit that doesn't make them better.

Everyone wants to talk about eyes, stance, stroke.....I will use Keith McCready as an example. He was a great player. But watching his stroke is almost painful. Nobody should play as well as he does with that goofy side arm stroke. Keith was a champion because he played and played and played.

Like you Lou, everyone wants to be a champion but nobody wants to put the time in.

That's my 2 cents.

Ken


Ken, you stated it well.

It's this is really the crux of the issue -- you want to play well, do the work.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My old friend Lou. Too bad we didn't play some years ago at the Break. Would have been fun.


I was playing, you were watching.

Geno, you did not do so much as go, "bow, wow."

Anytime you're back in St. Louis we can play.

Lou Figueroa
 

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Champions

Nonetheless, you either have "it" or you don't. No amount of boot camps will make someone who does not have what the champions have a champion.

It's like Golf. You make great strides until you don't and that is the end of the great strides.

We can respectfully disagree on this. Or if we agree, it’s simply that I think that the ‘it’ champions must have is not believing the above is true.

Edit: To be fair, I’m not sure if some special gift is needed to become #1 in the world. I’m not sure it is, but I’m not sure it’s not. That’s not my goal so it never mattered to me. But you may be right if that’s what you mean by champion. But in terms of beginners becoming accomplished players, I am confident anyone can learn to run 100 in straight pool or beat the 10 ball ghost. For most players that is a worthy accomplishment.
 
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CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my heros.
Silver Member
Ken, you stated it well.

It's this is really the crux of the issue -- you want to play well, do the work.

Lou Figueroa


A large portion of the population have dreams, they want to be any number of things. Few are willing to do the work to accomplish their dreams.

Navy SEALS are a good example, few make it threw training, but those who do are not the biggest, strongest. All have one thing in common, they want to be a SEALs, and work toward that goal, and do not quit in process.

If you buy the best instructional Pool DVD's, Books, or take instructions, and do not practice what you saw, read, or where taught. Some people buy books, and DVD's and never watch or read?:sorry:
 

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
A large portion of the population have dreams, they want to be any number of things. Few are willing to do the work to accomplish their dreams.

Navy SEALS are a good example, few make it threw training, but those who do are not the biggest, strongest. All have one thing in common, they want to be a SEALs, and work toward that goal, and do not quit in process.

If you buy the best instructional Pool DVD's, Books, or take instructions, and do not practice what you saw, read, or where taught. Some people buy books, and DVD's and never watch or read?:sorry:

Some people just talk regardless of who is listening, as well.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Eye dominance causes you to suck at pool?

Well maybe for some. More likely it's a combination of at least a few of the below:

1. Not working on fundamentals, including detailed analysis by pro or themselves on video
2. Not having any desire to be better
3. Not enough table time
4. Not playing better players
5. Not learning from instructors/videos/watching better players.
6. Working on the wrong things, rather than things they are bad at.
7. Health issues
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my heros.
Silver Member
Eye dominance causes you to suck at pool?

Well maybe for some. More likely it's a combination of at least a few of the below:

1. Not working on fundamentals, including detailed analysis by pro or themselves on video
2. Not having any desire to be better
3. Not enough table time
4. Not playing better players
5. Not learning from instructors/videos/watching better players.
6. Working on the wrong things, rather than things they are bad at.
7. Health issues

Your list is valid, on the mark. No BS, just truth.

People are lazy, that is why everyone is not great, too lazy too do the nessessary work. G.O.Y.A.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I didn't know who you were?

I was playing, you were watching.

Geno, you did not do so much as go, "bow, wow."

Anytime you're back in St. Louis we can play.

Lou Figueroa

I had no idea. I was impressed by how smoothly you played. Nice stroke and you controlled the cue ball effortlessly. Very natural feel to your game. I was impressed. It would have been fun to play some. But you kind of acted like you were mad at me. If I recall I did ask you to play some. I wasn't looking to gamble but was just trying to find players to teach. You didn't want anything to do with me. Later I figured out you were the Lou on AZ. I had no idea at the time.

I did do a lesson with the other guy that was there at the time. And ended up doing a few more. Nice poolhall. I played a guy named Brad there that started throwing balls around the pool hall like baseballs. The gal behind the counter was begging him to stop. Kind of funny. He didn't throw any at me. He was just mad. Not drunk. Just mad. Sore loser. I think I beat him out of 4 or 5 hundred.

If I ever come thru there again we could play some. it would be fun. We could play small or we could play for a little more. Fun either way. The way you play you don't have to be scared of too many players. They have to play awful good to win. If they are world class skill level you can keep with them for awhile until you figure it out. Hard time making a score before you see their real game.

I got a kick out of seeing you get some games on AZ with certian players. I knew how they played and saw how you played and I knew they were cruising for a bruising. I figured you were stealing.

I can't travel too much right now, too busy staying alive but if you ever get up to Minnesota it would be fun to play some and I will bet something too. No backers. My own cash. You won't be stealing.

I'll be 68 in July but I can still play. Every once in awhile someone up here that thinks I'm to old donates a little here and there. Kind of like a retirement fund.

Wish you the best of luck with your game and life in general. Stay safe and stay healthy...
 
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lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had no idea. I was impressed by how smoothly you played. Nice stroke and you controlled the cue ball effortlessly. Very natural feel to your game. I was impressed. It would have been fun to play some. But you kind of acted like you were mad at me. If I recall I did ask you to play some. I wasn't looking to gamble but was just trying to find players to teach. You didn't want anything to do with me. Later I figured out you were the Lou on AZ. I had no idea at the time.

I did do a lesson with the other guy that was there at the time. And ended up doing a few more. Nice poolhall. I played a guy named Brad there that started throwing balls around the pool hall like baseballs. The gal behind the counter was begging him to stop. Kind of funny. He didn't throw any at me. He was just mad. Not drunk. Just mad. Sore loser. I think I beat him out of 4 or 5 hundred.

If I ever come thru there again we could play some. it would be fun. We could play small or we could play for a little more. Fun either way. The way you play you don't have to be scared of too many players. They have to play awful good to win. If they are world class skill level you can keep with them for awhile until you figure it out. Hard time making a score before you see their real game.

I got a kick out of seeing you get some games on AZ with certian players. I knew how they played and saw how you played and I knew they were cruising for a bruising. I figured you were stealing.

I can't travel too much right now, too busy staying alive but if you ever get up to Minnesota it would be fun to play some and I will bet something too. No backers. My own cash. You won't be stealing.

I'll be 68 in July but I can still play. Every once in awhile someone up here that thinks I'm to old donates a little here and there. Kind of like a retirement fund.

Wish you the best of luck with your game and life in general. Stay safe and stay healthy...


I don't recall it that way.

I remember you standing by the bar in a red polo shirt with your Perfect Aim logo on it, watching from the bar -- it was kind of obvious who you were. So at some point we started talking and eventually you went out to your car and came back with two over-sized foam balls to demonstrate your theory. I said I disagreed and demonstrated how I could shoot accurately with either eye. You didn't offer to play and given that we parlayed for quite a while I don't understand your comment about being mad at you. (And yes, Brad was something of an emotional wild card back in the day.)

So, thanks for the kind words. I'm coming up on 67, so 68 doesn't put you at much of a disadvantage. But I doubt we'll play if it takes getting me up to Minnesota, lol.

One last thing though on the whole issue of eye placement. More than a matter of a dominant eye, it's doing things the same way in a consistent manner. If you haven't been doing that, and then start to, you're going to improve, so that's a big part of anyone's improvement: consistency.

Look at the photos/videos of successful pool players: as a group, they're all over the place when it comes to cue/eye relationships. But what they all do have in common is that, individually, they do it the same way, every time. The snooker players are particularly noteworthy for this -- they're like some Disneyland animatronics on every shot.

 Looking at the balls the same on every shot and giving your peepers (and wetware) a consistent frame of reference is just part of the equation. Do it the same, no matter how you decide upon that, and you're going to play better.

You're still going to have to work out the foot work; the grip and bridge hands; the movements that get you into shooting position and generate peculiar but critical things like wrist position and the motion of the stroke itself (pause or not at your own peril :) Oh, and then don't forget you're going to have to learn all the stuff about squirt, and swerve, and speed, and spin, and throw, and elevation, and stuff like that there for *a lot* of different shots/position combinations.



Geno, I think there's value in what you're teaching but there's a wide array of other things a player, lower level or otherwise, must also learn to become successful.

Lou Figueroa
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had no idea. I was impressed by how smoothly you played. Nice stroke and you controlled the cue ball effortlessly. Very natural feel to your game. I was impressed. It would have been fun to play some. But you kind of acted like you were mad at me. If I recall I did ask you to play some. I wasn't looking to gamble but was just trying to find players to teach. You didn't want anything to do with me. Later I figured out you were the Lou on AZ. I had no idea at the time.

I did do a lesson with the other guy that was there at the time. And ended up doing a few more. Nice poolhall. I played a guy named Brad there that started throwing balls around the pool hall like baseballs. The gal behind the counter was begging him to stop. Kind of funny. He didn't throw any at me. He was just mad. Not drunk. Just mad. Sore loser. I think I beat him out of 4 or 5 hundred.

If I ever come thru there again we could play some. it would be fun. We could play small or we could play for a little more. Fun either way. The way you play you don't have to be scared of too many players. They have to play awful good to win. If they are world class skill level you can keep with them for awhile until you figure it out. Hard time making a score before you see their real game.

I got a kick out of seeing you get some games on AZ with certian players. I knew how they played and saw how you played and I knew they were cruising for a bruising. I figured you were stealing.

I can't travel too much right now, too busy staying alive but if you ever get up to Minnesota it would be fun to play some and I will bet something too. No backers. My own cash. You won't be stealing.

I'll be 68 in July but I can still play. Every once in awhile someone up here that thinks I'm to old donates a little here and there. Kind of like a retirement fund.

Wish you the best of luck with your game and life in general. Stay safe and stay healthy...

I’ve been to Minneapolis several times during football season. I’ve always gone to Jimmy’s for action. Is that where you live? If it is sorry I missed you, I always up for a lesson to expand my knowledge.
 

gunzby

My light saber is LD
Silver Member
I've been working on how I sight shots in lately and found something pretty interesting. I'm right handed and right eye dominant. On cut shots where the OB is inside my body I rarely miss. On cut shots where the OB is outside my body if I do miss it's because I undercut the shot by a hair.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I have resisted posting in this thread, but this is the biggest BS post in this entire thread. Geno, you have no formal training in teaching anybody anything...and as such, have no legitimacy in talking about other REAL instructors. The truth is that dominant eye does not play a serious role in shooting pool...never has. 3000 lessons (x $200)? Hell, you should have retired long ago to spend all your money! LOL Like I told you years ago, if you just said "this works great for some players", I would have no issue with you...but the "every lesson is a home run", and )"I'm the only one who knows anything about this" comments are just baloney! :rolleyes:

Scott Lee ~ does undestand and teaches the science behind eye dominance
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour


They just don't know it a very few people understand it enough to really help players everywhere. It's simple to fix but at the same time very difficult.

First the dominant eye has to be identified absolutely correctly.

Then the degree of dominance needs to be determined.

Then the stance has to be adjusted to accommodate the new correct eye position.

Then the player needs to learn how to come down into the shot and not slip over to where they are used to coming down.

There are so many things to this that are just pool related in general and need to be fixed. Things that need to be done to make this transition work well. That many teachers that I know that have tried to teach it just kind of give up. They just get stuck because there are so many scenarios that enter into the correction.

It took me 10 years to perfect this and still I have players that try to trash my hard work in 10 minutes with a few careless words knowing absolutely nothing about what they are talking about.

I guess it is their right to express that they don't understand it at all by dissing it a junk.

But to the players that learn how to do this their game is in for some real fun. The poolhall will be busier because they will want to play more. Instead of leaving immediately after league they will hang out and play some because it is fun to be able to see what your doing and be able to do a little something with those balls on the table.

Getting those eyes right just makes the game a little more fun for everyone.
 
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genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Check this out..

I've been working on how I sight shots in lately and found something pretty interesting. I'm right handed and right eye dominant. On cut shots where the OB is inside my body I rarely miss. On cut shots where the OB is outside my body if I do miss it's because I undercut the shot by a hair.

If you are right eye dominant on a quarter ball hit you will cut it too thin to the right. When you cut to the left you will hit it too thick. This is how you will miss if the right eye is not in the most dominant position.

When we get in tough situations we need to know when the sights are on the shot because when we get a little nervous it is real easy to dog the eyes. We just knew it didn't quite look right before we shot.

Shot 10 shots both ways and you will see. Another way I test which eye is dominant, whichever eye is dominant, it will just line up pretty good naturally when cutting that way.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I could show you some things but I won't.

I have resisted posting in this thread, but this is the biggest BS post in this entire thread. Geno, you have no formal training in teaching anybody anything...and as such, have no legitimacy in talking about other REAL instructors. The truth is that dominant eye does not play a serious role in shooting pool...never has. 3000 lessons (x $200)? Hell, you should have retired long ago to spend all your money! LOL Like I told you years ago, if you just said "this works great for some players", I would have no issue with you...but the "every lesson is a home run", and )"I'm the only one who knows anything about this" comments are just baloney! :rolleyes:

Scott Lee ~ does undestand and teaches the science behind eye dominance
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Sorry you feel like you know it all Scott but I could show you some stuff you don't know. We all can still learn. When we think we know it all we stop learning. Sometimes we might learn something here and there by accident but every little nugget we can pick up we can teach. From 2008 to 2013 I traveled teaching and playing on the road. I had an open mind and learned so much along the way. Every time I learned something I taught it. Playing at a higher level myself I could really work on it so i could teach it. When I would go play in a tournament with a bunch of pros I would watch each one and break down that part of the game. If 10 pros were doing it the same way I knew that this was probably the best way. Especially if it worked well for me.

You do know about the dominant eye but not to the depth that I know. But then again maybe you do. I guess I will never know. But you don't know what you don't know until you understand completely what you didn't know. I had never found anyone that understands this to the depth I'm at.

Your statement, """The truth is that dominant eye does not play a serious role in shooting pool...never has."""" Is so rediculous i feel foolish even replying to this comment. Once I get done any player that understands this knows better.

L feel bad for you Scott that you still feel that you need to attack me. But you are 100% wrong on this for sure.
 
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