The Biggest reason Lower level players can't improve ????

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A personal pet peeve of mine is when people oversell their product and try to make you believe they have "the secret" waiting for you.

There are many important reasons lower level player don't improve:

Bad stroke mechanics
Inconsistent stroke mechanics
Failure to focus during practice
Lack of motivation to practice enough
Lack of understanding of physics of the game

To name a few.

There is no "secret", no silver bullet, no magic pill, no mantra that will speed your improvement other than hard work and doing the roadwork and reps.

Lou Figueroa
sorry about that
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my heros.
Silver Member
A personal pet peeve of mine is when people oversell their product and try to make you believe they have "the secret" waiting for you.

There are many important reasons lower level player don't improve:

Bad stroke mechanics
Inconsistent stroke mechanics
Failure to focus during practice
Lack of motivation to practice enough
Lack of understanding of physics of the game

To name a few.

There is no "secret", no silver bullet, no magic pill, no mantra that will speed your improvement other than hard work and doing the roadwork and reps.

Lou Figueroa
sorry about that


Zero to be sorry about Lou, except your reply is like a shot to the heart, it kills some notion that there is some "secret" that is not secret. IMHO the secret is practice, improvising, adaption ing, and overcoming.

Pick any sport, talk to any top level player in the sport, the common denomiartor even if the person is gifted with some extra talent is work, hard work, practiced, trading, and time practicing. Theny life is the Sport, and the Sport is their life & full time job.

If there was a Magic Cue it would have to be a FILL IN THE BLANK,, and name you like. But it if you gullible, you can go buy one. IMHO any top player would still be a Top Player with House Cue with descent tip, own Chalk, and Sandpaper.:smile:

Skill is not sold in bottle, or packaged in DVD, it come with work & practice.
 
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David in FL

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hi David, If you had the experiences that I have had teaching this you would understand. They have no chance to get better because they just feel like they are pushing the cue ball in the general direction. One this is corrected they are off to the races. Now they can actually improve.

I guess I wasn’t as clear as I thought. I’m not saying that cross dominance isn’t an issue. I agree that it can be a challenge.

I’m saying that since it only occurs in about 30% of the population, there are a lot of other reasons that people don’t improve. If not, most of the rest of us would be a lot better than we are. :rolleyes:
 

Geosnooker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Isn’t there an aiming forum? Only 65,000 posts on it. All with the ‘latest’ insight.

This is ludicrous.

If somebody can’t sink a 2.25 inch ball into American pool table basketball hoop at 7 feet it is NOT solved by dominant eye solution number 1000. I can Sink a 7’ ball into a 3.5 inch snooker pocket. Shooting left or right handed and not adjusting the eye for either.

Oops...that doesn’t cost anything and feed the pockets of the hustlers...er I mean ‘instructors’.

Hint...practice and and practice. Have fun.

American Pool is full of more quackery and salesmanship than the diet industry. No wonder it’s the equivalent of mini golf to the Masters in the billiards world. Magic cues, magic chalk, magic grip, magic Stance, magic eye solution, magic breathing, Just get out there and shoot balls into the pocket.
 
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CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my heros.
Silver Member
I guess I wasn’t as clear as I thought. I’m not saying that cross dominance isn’t an issue. I agree that it can be a challenge.

I’m saying that since it only occurs in about 30% of the population, there are a lot of other reasons that people don’t improve. If not, most of the rest of us would be a lot better than we are. :rolleyes:

Well you must have figured out how to Improvise, Adampt, and Over Come you way you visual thing. I am R Eye Dominant, Let Handed, I got it figured out, from doing.:grin:
 

Chili Palmer

323
Gold Member
Silver Member
You are so totally wrong on this. Nothing works if you can't hit the ball correctly. Whichever eye is your dominant eye, just move the stick under the other one and tell me this again. That this is way down on the list. Don't just think it but do it. You will see that you have trouble making the ball and the shape or english is just rediculous to try and control. Fundamentals are totally out of the question when the shot looks so bad.

I have taught it and lived it and have seen it thousands of times. I'm 100% correct on this. Not even debatable. It's a given.

I don't think 3's and 4's are all drunks and dopers. I know drunks and dopers that are 7's and 8's and 9's. They would play better if they stayed straight. Hard to get your fundamentals right when you can't hardly see the shot good enough to feel confident it's lined up correctly.

I believe eye dominance plays a huge roll in lower level players but as you mention, nothing works if you can't hit the ball correctly.

IMHO, there are people with naturally good stances that can't see the ball and there are people who can see the ball but can't swing a stick straight to save their life. Not trying to argue or disagree but I do not believe there is one simple fix for everyone, there are just too many variables.
 

alphadog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I took a lesson from you on the phone when you were laid up from the accident and subsequently purchased your DVD. I did not make a quantum leap in my game until I took some in person instruction and improved the fundamentals I mentioned in my other post. Of course confidence of potting improves other things but nothing gets far with poor fundamentals. I don't care if you can see a field mouse from a cliff a mile away if your stroke can't deliver the cue ball to it you're not eating.

I believe you are both right. Those that go to Geno are interested in improving their game. Even a slight increase in ball pocketing will also increase their confidence in proper execution. With that being said,further improvement is going to require time at the table including analysis of results. Hit a million balls or Pro instruction and hit 1000s of shots.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Correct info..

I guess I wasn’t as clear as I thought. I’m not saying that cross dominance isn’t an issue. I agree that it can be a challenge.

I’m saying that since it only occurs in about 30% of the population, there are a lot of other reasons that people don’t improve. If not, most of the rest of us would be a lot better than we are. :rolleyes:

Hi there David, I got my info on eye dominance from slugging it out on the road. It makes sense that 30% would be right eyed right handed. 30% would be left handed left eyed and the rest would be opposite eye dominant.

Here's the deal. Opposite eye dominant really have a problem. many players make it better by being so addicted to the game they play for hours and adjust to a certain level where they play pretty good be cross eye dominant.

Even the people that are right eyed, right handed and left eyed, left handed have challenges with the eyes also. it's just sometimes to a terrible degree with opposite eyed players.

Some of the best players in the world are opposite eye dominant. They have overcome this obstacle naturally from repetition.

I have worked with league players all over the country, thousands of them. Opposite eye dominant is almost like a pandemic that really holds the average player from improving ever. But once shown how to overcome this problem it gets pretty simple. That's why I do what I do. helping players enjoy the game of pool more than ever before.

It's really frustrating for me to watch a player I know is opposite eye dominant play so bad when in a few minutes I can get them started on a journey to really start learning the game.

If it just looks like your pushing the cue ball at the object ball and praying it might go in nothing will help your game. It's just such a mess right out of the gate.

Just trying to share 20 years of hardcore teaching and learning on the front lines with a few players here.

Thanks for your reply.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When you see the shots clearly and in line.

I believe you are both right. Those that go to Geno are interested in improving their game. Even a slight increase in ball pocketing will also increase their confidence in proper execution. With that being said,further improvement is going to require time at the table including analysis of results. Hit a million balls or Pro instruction and hit 1000s of shots.

The rest of the game just seems to make more sense because you can actually see what is going on. Improvement happens at an incredible pace. I've seen it over and over first hand.

Some of the players I have worked with when they were kids are on the Mosconi Cup.

Would they have gotten there without some of this knowledge? Probably eventually. But I know for a fact, this got them there a little quicker.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
Hate to disagree with a fine, well-respected, instructor like Gene here, but I believe that for every player whose primary problem is not knowing how to aim, there are 1,000 players who know exactly where to aim but don't know how to deliver the cue ball on the line of aim selected.

That's why learning good stroke fundamentals and practicing them until you drop has been and will always be the formula for success, not learning how to aim.

Just one man's opinion.
 

Ken_4fun

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A personal pet peeve of mine is when people oversell their product and try to make you believe they have "the secret" waiting for you.

There are many important reasons lower level player don't improve:

Bad stroke mechanics
Inconsistent stroke mechanics
Failure to focus during practice
Lack of motivation to practice enough
Lack of understanding of physics of the game

To name a few.

There is no "secret", no silver bullet, no magic pill, no mantra that will speed your improvement other than hard work and doing the roadwork and reps.

Lou Figueroa
sorry about that


I agree with you Lou, but I didn't see in the thread the real reason that lower level players don't improve.

THEY DONT PRACTICE and SPEND THE TIME AT THE TABLE.

They argue over handicaps and other bull$hit that doesn't make them better.

Everyone wants to talk about eyes, stance, stroke.....I will use Keith McCready as an example. He was a great player. But watching his stroke is almost painful. Nobody should play as well as he does with that goofy side arm stroke. Keith was a champion because he played and played and played.

Like you Lou, everyone wants to be a champion but nobody wants to put the time in.

That's my 2 cents.

Ken
 

paolo2144

Registered
I would tend to agree with you Gene.

i am right handed but left eye dominant and like a lot of players i used to line up the shot so my cue was right under centre of chin. My game used to go through spells of inconsistency which i could never explain. A couple of my snooker friends said my stance, pre-shot routine, delivery of cue all looked pretty solid so couldn't quite figure out issue.

I worked out i was left eye dominant so started lining up shots under left eye which seemed to improve things slightly but still not 100%. Then recently was was watching some videos on finding your vision centre, one by Dr Dave especially. I tried that and found that my ideal cue alignment is just about 1/2 inch to left of centre of chin. Ever since then my long straight potting has improved dramatically and is very consistent from match to match or practice session to practice session.

When you haven't been able to practise for few weeks it is easy to go back to old habits so now as soon as i start any practice session i really focus on ensuring i find vision centre straight from the off and it does make a difference. However i agree you also need dedication, sound fundamentals and good pre -shot routine as well.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I believe that for every player whose primary problem is not knowing how to aim, there are 1,000 players who know exactly where to aim but don't know how to deliver the cue ball on the line of aim selected.
I'd put that a little differently...

...there are 1,000 players who could learn exactly where to aim quickly and instinctively if they could consistently deliver the cue ball on the line of aim selected.

In other words, I think both skills are learned together.

pj
chgo
 

PRED

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Elephant in the room

Some are born with it, some never get it
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
I've never bought in to the eye dominance thing... I'd hazard a guess and say the large bulk of lower end players suffer from a mix horrible fundamentals and the dunning kruger effect.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
They can't even get started..

I agree with you Lou, but I didn't see in the thread the real reason that lower level players don't improve.

THEY DONT PRACTICE and SPEND THE TIME AT THE TABLE.

They argue over handicaps and other bull$hit that doesn't make them better.

Everyone wants to talk about eyes, stance, stroke.....I will use Keith McCready as an example. He was a great player. But watching his stroke is almost painful. Nobody should play as well as he does with that goofy side arm stroke. Keith was a champion because he played and played and played.

Like you Lou, everyone wants to be a champion but nobody wants to put the time in.

That's my 2 cents.

Ken

If you went golfing and everytime you hit the balls it went sideways do you think you would like golf. If you went bowling and everytime you threw the ball it went in the gutter how long do you think you would like bowling?

The biggest problem with anything, if you suck real bad and it just doesn't seem to be anyway to make it better it's tough to get kind of addicted to the game. Pool is addictive but not to someone that feels like they are just pushing the cue ball around.

Once these opposite eye dominant players that have struggled for years to try and make any sense to anything get it right there is a huge smile that cuts across their face.

Then they can get addicted. Then they can love the game. Then they can get interested. Then they can actually start making balls.

But unless you see this happen and live in the shell that just let's you see the shots and play pretty good it's hard to understand.

And continue to just think these people just suck or don't care. They are doing the best they can do with this obstacle that they don't know how to overcome.

Pool just becomes a social thing for many of them as it is with most other players. The problem is, why try to get better if it seems like mission impossible. .
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dominant eye doesn't matter when driving a car.

I've never bought in to the eye dominance thing... I'd hazard a guess and say the large bulk of lower end players suffer from a mix horrible fundamentals and the dunning kruger effect.

The reason why is we don't have to get close enough to go cross-eyed. If it did it would not be safe to be on the road.

This is why everyone drives pretty good. Eye dominance does not matter when driving a car or many other things we do.

This is why the athlete that does everything well gets on the pool table and just sucks. Top baseball player in high school. Gymnast. Diver on the swim team. And can make a ball on the pool table.

This is why can I take this same player that has sucked on the table for 5 years, rated a 3 all that time and show them how to get this eye thing right and almost immediately they are pocketing balls that before were not even a thought of being close.

These people don't naturally suck. They just didn't figure it out naturally from repetition. The sights were just crooked on their gun. Once this is straightened out the fun begins.

Now they can get addicted like everyone else.

I'm just sharing this because I see it over and over.

Over 3,000 lessons and seeing the same thing over and over.

And sure there are many aspects to the game that need to be learned but if any shot looks impossible and crooked why even try to get better. Just show up to league and try to have some fun. But this can be fixed.
.
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Smartest reply on this thread.....

I would tend to agree with you Gene.

i am right handed but left eye dominant and like a lot of players i used to line up the shot so my cue was right under centre of chin. My game used to go through spells of inconsistency which i could never explain. A couple of my snooker friends said my stance, pre-shot routine, delivery of cue all looked pretty solid so couldn't quite figure out issue.

I worked out i was left eye dominant so started lining up shots under left eye which seemed to improve things slightly but still not 100%. Then recently was was watching some videos on finding your vision centre, one by Dr Dave especially. I tried that and found that my ideal cue alignment is just about 1/2 inch to left of centre of chin. Ever since then my long straight potting has improved dramatically and is very consistent from match to match or practice session to practice session.

When you haven't been able to practise for few weeks it is easy to go back to old habits so now as soon as i start any practice session i really focus on ensuring i find vision centre straight from the off and it does make a difference. However i agree you also need dedication, sound fundamentals and good pre -shot routine as well.

Sounds like you escaped from the trenches of crooked sight syndrome. Players that think there is nothing to this should study your words of wisdom here. Because your right hand, right eye and the cue are on the right side it is easy to just let the right eye work like the dominant eye. And it will just do the best it can do naturally. Eventually some players after playing for years will naturally drift to this better position from repetition, just like swinging an ax. But, if you can get some help with this you can improve at a rate that never seemed possible.

Thank you for your spot on reply here. You can lead a pool player to information but you can't force them to learn. This thread really points out the reasons why.

I know exactly what I'm talking about but the great info I'm sharing here kind of gets covered up by so many, I don't think so,
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Same old same old

A personal pet peeve of mine is when people oversell their product and try to make you believe they have "the secret" waiting for you.

There are many important reasons lower level player don't improve:

Bad stroke mechanics
Inconsistent stroke mechanics
Failure to focus during practice
Lack of motivation to practice enough
Lack of understanding of physics of the game

To name a few.

There is no "secret", no silver bullet, no magic pill, no mantra that will speed your improvement other than hard work and doing the roadwork and reps.

Lou Figueroa
sorry about that

My old friend Lou. Too bad we didn't play some years ago at the Break. Would have been fun.
 
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