the chess myth

sunnyone

sunnyone

cum grano salis
Silver Member
hi everyone! this is my first post, so i hope i don't mess up!

i don't believe that chess is a good analogy for one-pocket, as many have suggested.

why not? because in chess a good player can see a few moves ahead with some degree of accuracy. there are thousands of possible moves, but logic, talent and experience narrow the counter-moves to a predictable number.

in one-pocket, there is usually no accurate way to predict what the result of your opponent's next shot will be. so you are always reacting to a new layout that can't be foreseen.

well, that's my theory for today!
 
brilliant!

terrific analysis of one-pocket by sunnyone!

well done!

sincerely,

sunnyone
 
I disagree to a point. You can by your actions force or severely limit the options of your opponent. Therefore trapping or controlling him.

P.S. Nice first post question/topic!
 
sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow

sunnyone said:
hi everyone! this is my first post, so i hope i don't mess up!

i don't believe that chess is a good analogy for one-pocket, as many have suggested.

why not? because in chess a good player can see a few moves ahead with some degree of accuracy. there are thousands of possible moves, but logic, talent and experience narrow the counter-moves to a predictable number.

in one-pocket, there is usually no accurate way to predict what the result of your opponent's next shot will be. so you are always reacting to a new layout that can't be foreseen.

well, that's my theory for today!
Click to expand...



In chess and one pocket you are trying to manipulate the other player's next move. Sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow. Unless you can find a way to break out of being the one following you are gonna lose at chess or one pocket. If you know somebody is playing several moves ahead at either game a hard left turn just for giggles now and then can rock their world. :D

Hu

Oh yeah, Welcome to the Forum!
 
In Martial arts it's referred to as being the dragon..

In Martial arts it's referred to as being the dragon as opposed to the Tiger... Both are powerful creatures, but the dragon is wise and will through action, lead the opponent to do what he wants.

The tiger may anticipate or react very well, but if you know what your opponent will do before he/she does, you can start to react without having to react at all.

That is very possible in one pocket. In fact when I was down south, I had a great one pocket player (atleast he used to be) telling me some things about one pocket and one of the keys is knowing or realizing what type of player your opponent is. Will they go for the long open shot with the cueball against the rail, or play safe???

If you can read your opponent, you can set up the shots so that when he/she does what you've read that they're going to do, they have little choice but to give you the table that you want.

In that way, it is a LOT like chess.

Jaden
 
Playing one-pocket, you absolutely CAN predict your opponents next move from your leave.

Chess is the most accurate game analogy to one-pocket; however with chess, you do not need to practice in order to learn how to move a pawn one square...
 
Jaden said:
In Martial arts it's referred to as being the dragon as opposed to the Tiger... Both are powerful creatures, but the dragon is wise and will through action, lead the opponent to do what he wants.

The tiger may anticipate or react very well, but if you know what your opponent will do before he/she does, you can start to react without having to react at all.

That is very possible in one pocket. In fact when I was down south, I had a great one pocket player (atleast he used to be) telling me some things about one pocket and one of the keys is knowing or realizing what type of player your opponent is. Will they go for the long open shot with the cueball against the rail, or play safe???

If you can read your opponent, you can set up the shots so that when he/she does what you've read that they're going to do, they have little choice but to give you the table that you want.

In that way, it is a LOT like chess.

Jaden
Click to expand...

Thats what I've come to learn with one pocket... you play your opponent.

I'm not sure if I like the pool/chess analogy either... I can move a piece on a chess board with 100% accuracy, but the cue ball is a bit tough to move accurately. Takes a long time to understand how to move the cue ball around, but moving a chess piece is a cake walk.
 
It's alot like chess

Back when I started playing (not many people play in Canada) I would be traveling on business and be jousting with players who knew the moves. I did not and had to use my touch and shot-making to outrun the nuts. After 3 hours of school my head would hurt because I could give them the 7 but they would move me into the ground.

I would feel like Mohamed Ali rope-a-doping my opponent into a shot knowing that I would need to score big to win. Simple bunt safeties instead of pocket clearances. Didn't know how to defend and develop. Just figured given a tough shot with benefits I would step up and fire. My opponents would drive the game. My safeties would be very passive and in a few moves I would be in a world of hurt. Fast forward five years and I am well schooled in the game. Complete skillset and many hours of lessons burnt into my computer.

One Pocket is the complete game. Very Chess like...you need to know "book" as they say in chess. Openings. Mid Games. End Game. Playing score. Playing opponents tendencies, strengths and weaknesses.

I play a guy all the time who I spot 11-6. He can't spot or pass up on a bank that has a double kiss in it. I look for them and drop him in the position for it. Sure enough he tries the cross over and up burps a easy ball to get shape from and do damage. He spends the rest of the rack fuming and it's over even if I don't finish. Another gent plays well but will NEVER shot at a tough shot unless he has zero options and built in safety, regardless of the benefits to score big. All day he gets up table balls that I would shot at with great happiness.

One Pocket is Chess with a cue.
 
CrownCityCorey said:
Playing one-pocket, you absolutely CAN predict your opponents next move from your leave.

Chess is the most accurate game analogy to one-pocket; however with chess, you do not need to practice in order to learn how to move a pawn one square...
Click to expand...

Yes you can, but not always!
 
High level chess, from what I've read and watched, is about recognizing patterns, both common and uncommon. The same part of the brain that recognizes faces is what recognizes familiar clusters of pieces in chess.

What one pocket will have is some variance and luck. A ball rolls a few inches more or less and suddenly it's a whole new ball game. Every break leads to a different layout that favors either a quick run or a grinding match. One well played bank into the rack splatters balls all over your side of the hole.

So the flavor of chess seems to be... two big computer databanks stuffed with patterns that can quickly play the opening sequence of a given offense or defense almost on autopilot... then their familiarity with the deeper branches of the patterns will come into play. Whoever has the more complete database and recognizes the layout better can adapt.

A player can think many many moves ahead in chess because he doesn't need to wait to see if his pawn successfully went to C4 or if it somehow rolled halfway between C4 and C4, or if it bumped a rook sideways and exposed it.

One pocket has patterns that players recognize but they don't necessarily think "I do this, then he'll do this, and I'll do that, then he'll do that, and then I'll do this and I've got him". I think most players just think in terms of the single best response they can have to this situation, and maybe 1 layer deeper to their opponent's reaction... and that's it. No 3 or 5 or 10 moves in advance. And they have to re-evaluate after every turn. In chess if I think they're gonna move to D3 and they do, that's it. In 1p if I think they're gonna try that double kiss bank I still have to wait to see if they get the kiss, or beat it and miss, or beat it and make it... and if they get the kiss where did the CB go?

I guess my point is chess is much more memorization and prediction and brute brainpower. One pocket doesn't need quite so much deep analysis and study but does need you to execute, which affects the outcome of every 1p match ever played.
 
It's just an analogy that illustrates the strategic nature of the game. Which should be evident anyway as it is the only game where you can play an offensive shot without intending to pocket a ball.

Reading any further into it, in my opinion, is taking the analogy too literaly.
 
First of all welcome to the forums. You raise an interesting topic.

sunnyone said:
because in chess a good player can see a few moves ahead with some degree of accuracy. there are thousands of possible moves, but logic, talent and experience narrow the counter-moves to a predictable number.
Click to expand...

You know how you might go to the local bar and see someone make 2 balls in a row and they think they are "the man", but you are thinking what a banger they are? I think your characterization of chess applies primarily to people who play chess, but are not chess players. There are a LOT of ways to approach situations in chess, and the perception that there is a predictable number indicates that either 1) you are an *extremely* gifted player and can see many moves into the distance with clarity, and also have an uncanny ability to know your opponent and his or her style of play, and finally a rare ability to coordinate these capabilities, or 2)you are not seeing the things that even a novice tournament player finds obvious. Not trying to bash you or anything, I just think that your comment doesn't really give great chess playing the credit it deserves.

CreeDo said:
So the flavor of chess seems to be... two big computer databanks stuffed with patterns that can quickly play the opening sequence of a given offense or defense almost on autopilot... then their familiarity with the deeper branches of the patterns will come into play. Whoever has the more complete database and recognizes the layout better can adapt....

I guess my point is chess is much more memorization and prediction and brute brainpower. One pocket doesn't need quite so much deep analysis and study but does need you to execute, which affects the outcome of every 1p match ever played.
Click to expand...

Excellent observation. However, I think the true masters of chess to *some* degree transcend this aspect of raw brainpower, and seem to employ an almost supernatural intuition when selecting moves. Otherwise, how would they ever beat a well programmed computer, that can instantaneously calculate every single move through the end of a million possible games? And the highest level players *DO* beat the computers sometimes. Thus, there must be an element that is outside of the scope of pure computational skills and memorization.

Also, I think the point about execution is also very important. It is rare that chess games are lost based on poor physical execution! How funny would that be though..."and now Bobby Fischer is about to mate his opponent in 6 moves if he just gets the bishop onto C4...he's almost there...OH NO!!! he's dropped the bishop!!! He's dropped the bishop!! I can't believe it....(etc. lol!)

Anyway, intriguing post! Keep them coming!

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
I think the true masters of chess to *some* degree transcend this aspect of raw brainpower, and seem to employ an almost supernatural intuition when selecting moves.
Click to expand...

That also jibes with a documentary I saw on the subject, the same one that pointed out the pattern recognition stuff. The very best make moves on instinct and can play at the highest level at a surprising rate of speed. Their intuition allows them to win at blitz chess and seemingly play moves that are no worse than what they would have played if they spent a lot of time thinking about it.

How funny would that be though..."and now Bobby Fischer is about to mate his opponent in 6 moves if he just gets the bishop onto C4...he's almost there...OH NO!!! he's dropped the bishop!!! He's dropped the bishop!! I can't believe it....(etc. lol!)
Click to expand...

I got a good laugh out of this. I hear the commentary with a definite english accent.
 
Usually what I hear is "one-pocket is the chess of pool games", and I agree with this. One-pocket is by far the most strategic pool game I know of; most shots are an effort to achieve a tactical advantage over the other player. When played at a very high level, the number of viable "moves" available to each player decreases as the game progresses, so it is possible at times to do some forecasting with regard to how your opponent will respond to a particular move. These elements of the game are comparable to chess.

I liken it to someone saying "Kasparov is the Michael Jordan of chess". The analogy can be valid regardless of whether Kasparov can dunk a basketball.

Aaron
 
One Pocket has been compared to chess since long before I started playing. I think most who play both games would agree with the analogy.
 
There's always the option of taking an intentional foul when the boat gets shaky, kind of like a do-over with a small penalty. You don't have that in Chess. Doesn't matter how bad someone has you trapped up in one pocket, there's always an option to take a foul and let them get over zealous.
 
the queen's gambit????

mikeyfrost said:
There's always the option of taking an intentional foul when the boat gets shaky, kind of like a do-over with a small penalty. You don't have that in Chess. Doesn't matter how bad someone has you trapped up in one pocket, there's always an option to take a foul and let them get over zealous.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't the queen's gambit be kind of like the ability to sacrifice a ball to get out of a sticky situation???

Jaden
 
I think a better analogy is one pocket is more like taking a dump

you wait for hours focused watching the paint dry

then in one spectacular moment something finally falls

and all your money is then flushed away
 
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