The REAL problem with pool

I have seen two ideas that work.

The Moose, the Elks, the Eagles, and the VFW are clubs that seem to be doing well in Ohio and in Florida. They have reasonably large numbers of members and several different activities from bowling to golf. In addition most of the clubs I have been in have from two to four pool tables. I think that these clubs for middle aged men and their wives with Friday fish and a standing clientele at the bar are where some players meet. When I played in the leagues we often stopped at the Moose for a beer and a few games before and after dinner. The club had an annual pool tournament for men and one for women that often pack the facility for the weekend. All in all these are good places for a pool enthusiast to generate more interest in the game. At one time some friends (and fellow Moose members) had four league teams that played out of the local Moose.

Here in Florida we are members of the Eagles and this club has two beat up 7 foot tables. At east 20 of the members also play in local pool leagues and it would not take much for someone to show interest and generate a local group within the club. These places have much potential and will support pool when some of the membership gets serious about the sport.

Another model that seemed to work well in Ohio was a biker bar with three seven foot tables that were in full use most nights. There is usually 10 – 20 bikes out front of the bar and the high volume biker bar music plays all the time. In addition the bartenders break empty beer bottles in a 30 gal metal trash can every five to ten minutes. The place is insane but packed nearly every night with pool players, bikers and others. The owner has a standing rule that seems to be the essence of the place. Any fighting results in a life time ban from the bar. He means it and he strictly enforces it. It is a crazy biker bar with all that that entails but everyone feels safe and there are many different types of people from hustlers (who proceed cautiously) to mid level execs out for a meal and to watch the local scene. This place has been open for over twenty years and is going strong . For anyone who is interested the name is State Line Bar and Grill in East Palestine, Ohio on the PA boarder.

BTW most of the clubs I have been in have coin operated tables that cost 50 - 75 cents.
 
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Room owners

FranCrimi said:
The day a juke box entered a pool room was the beginning of the downfall of the game. Only the very young can tolerate the variety of loud music that juke boxes spit out. So with a juke box, you've just kicked out half your pool playing population. The same goes for video games. They only work if they're in a contained area well away from the playing area.

A big part of the problem is in fact, that pool room owners are trying to squeeze out profits from too many sources. Pool tables, a bar, and leagues, with control over the music depending on the time of day and day of the week are a formula that I've seen work.

Management has to be hands-on. They can't just open their doors and then come back later to pick up the cash. They have to put themselves in the mix with their customers and find out what works and what isn't working.

Decent fast food helps as well. I think a full blown restaurant and all the headaches that go with it isn't necessary.
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I think your third paragraph says it all.
 
Lots and lots of good points. Here in Mass/NH, you simply cannot afford to open a room now because the rents are so prohibitive. I have "almost" opened another pool room three times and the numbers just don't work.

I got to say that the Billiards Cafe owner has done a fabulous job with that room. One of the few that came out of the 90's and is still here.

Smoking...I know, I know....fact was when my town was considering a smoking ban I took a census every night at 9pm. 85% of the tables in use had at least one smoker. IF you could open a room that would allow smoking you would have a ready customer base. Smokers are very self conscious today. To go to a place and be comfortable partaking in your "jones" would have many customers.

Leagues- I feel strongly both ways ;). I had a league that filled my room and I sold lots of cues and the members came in for practice and lessons. I did not have a bar. When I did open a bar (beer and wine only) I had an APA team and it was a pain in the tookus. They wanted free time and a practice table and free drinks because they were so important. You never saw them during the week. They lasted one session and I squashed it.

Golf-pool comparison. Golf is on tv-- pool is not. They are BOTH boring to watch on tv because people do not appreciate how difficult the shots are. Golf has better luck because everyone can see a 30' putt and they know they would miss the same putt. Not the same in pool. If they show a force follow shot that the cue travels 3 rails for perfect position they all THINK they can do the same because their cue ball has traveled that far sometimes on a shot that they lucked position.

In Woburn, MA there was a great shooters/action room called Breakers. The owner wanted to create a better income source in the summer, so he converted part of the room to sell ice cream. He made so much money with less hours and certainly much less aggravation, he closed the room and now it is an ice cream shop.

Pool is populated with a middle age group, but it also has a younger group. Just played in a tournament and it was 60-40 young guys (btw- there is nothing sweeter than the look on the face of a young guy when an old guy like me beats him -LOL)

ok- got to go back to work.

Bob
 
IMO why pool was really booming from the late 1940's to the late 1970's it was because of the 100's small 6-12 table rooms not the 50+ table rooms. Back then there was at least one small poolroom in almost every town. If you look around your town now you will see very few mom and pop or small stores and shops left. I think Allen Jackson's song, "The Little Man", says a lot about what happened to the mom and pop small shops and yes, small poolrooms. http://www.cmt.com/videos/alan-jackson/58993/little-man.jhtml
 
One way to think about the leagues is that they are, in realty, a distributed form of a pool room. The league operator is the "room owner" and has a player base (from hundreds to thousands of players). He does not have the overhead for owning a room and yet organizes a large group of players. In today's lingo he has a virtual pool room.

I agree there is a need to foster excellence in play but the current mentality seems to be to organize for "team" excellence with a distribution of skill levels on the team.

Given this preference, and it must be a preference because so many people find the leagues appealing, the player instructors need to find a way to meet this need. While I personally, prefer the individual player approach, it simply is not the way of today's world. This can be lamented but it is the reality.

Perhaps there is more of a need to learn to work within this preferred player model of virtual pool rooms with team play. This type of thinking can lead to new ways to foster and improve the sport.

When I practiced psychology, as a profession, the intent was to help people do what they wanted to do in such a way that accomplished their goals and within culturally accepted standards. That is to say, if the pool playing culture has shown by its participation the way it wants to proceed then how can one foster these desires in a way that is good for the overall development of the game.

Perhaps virtual rooms and team play are the way of the future.
 
Jerry, you couldn't be more correct in your assessment that pool, as we know it, lies in keeping our local pool rooms open. I wish I had something to offer that would help remedy some of the financial problems faced by room owners, but I don't.
I would say, however, that what we don't need are more insufferable threads, ideas, and comments, generated by ass kissing bangers who naively believe that new and exciting venues for the pro players will solve any of the problems that currently exist.
The problems that do currently exist must be addressed from the bottom up. Not the top down.


P.S. I apologize for calling a banger an ass kisser. Hey, I'm Tramp, for crissake. :)
 
Pushout said:
Somewhat sadly, I have to agree with you, Neil. Leagues should be good for pool but are not. In my experience, you have to be both a business person and a player. And, by player I mean someone that knows and understands the game, not just someone who plays pool. I've seen people who were one and not the other and their rooms folded. Back in NYS where I played for about 25 years there just aren't enough regular players to support the rooms. There were no new {read young} players when we visited in 2011 and we had been gone 14 years. We went to two rooms and the players were the same ones, just less of them.
I just don't know.
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We have over 2k APA teams alone in my area . What's left of pool halls would no question shut down with out them .
So if their not good for pool I would sure like to know what is
The problem with pool is the few the people who overestimate its sport and social value and try to make it something it's never been or ever going to be

The leagues understand what pool is and have capitalized greatly from that learning from the fans that pool is a recreational sport that the fans would rather play than watch


1
 
How about...anyone who orders an entrée from the menu gets free pool during the lunch hour? Should generate business and if you have a good menu, you're going to make money. It's a 'pool happy hour', if you will.
 
one stroke said:
We have over 2k APA teams alone in my area . What's left of pool halls would no question shut down with out them .
So if their not good for pool I would sure like to know what is
The problem with pool is the few the people who overestimate its sport and social value and try to make it something it's never been or ever going to be

The leagues understand what pool is and have capitalized greatly from that learning from the fans that pool is a recreational sport that the fans would rather play than watch


1
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OK, then let the rooms start charging the league players the going rate for everyone else, and see how long the leagues are still there. The leagues are booming because the people get to play for free basically. They have a set weekly fee, and that's it. Rooms can't survive without paying customers.

Around here, league players get a huge reduction in cost per table at all times, you still don't see them in the rooms outside of league night. Rooms have bent over backwards for them, to no avail. Rooms need to build up actual pool players, just social players doesn't cut it on the rooms bottom line.
 
one stroke said:
We have over 2k APA teams alone in my area . What's left of pool halls would no question shut down with out them .
So if their not good for pool I would sure like to know what is
The problem with pool is the few the people who overestimate its sport and social value and try to make it something it's never been or ever going to be

The leagues understand what pool is and have capitalized greatly from that learning from the fans that pool is a recreational sport that the fans would rather play than watch


1
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See Neil's comments above regarding leagues.
 
The hall I now frequent does monthly & yearly specials & has a daily leave & return special from 10am to 6pm for $6.00.

The owner just put in 2- 9' Diamond tables with FOUR(4) inch pockets. The old one that he kept had 4.25 inch pockets. They are by the long bar for spectators to watch the 'match ups'.

The 10 - 9' Brunswick's are shimmed. There is one 8' with large pockets & 1 coin table. No video games except for the video poker.

There is a connecting door to a pizza joint next door. There are in house 8 & 9 ball & one pocket leagues for the 'players' & a few traveling BCA/APA teams.

My point is that as a player the owner is catering to players.

The pizza sandwich connection is good for keeping people in house but without the hassles.

The hall has a very good mix of age groups from young to old.

Fran is also correct in that one of the two owners is always there.
 
One more thing. I would say at least 75% of all my regulars in the 1960's were under 30 years old and a lot of poolrooms were like that. Johnnyt
 
Pool Needs "structure"

I've said it before here, I'll say it again. POOL NEEDS STRUCTURE.

Is it important for the local poolroom to stay open ? (you bet!)

Is it important to be able to operate in any capacity in pool and be profitable? (you bet!)

Is it important for there to be "PROS" who envisage the sport upon all interested; both young & old??? (you bet!)

Is it important to have promoters who want to preserve the sport rather than seek to squeeze every dime they can out of the venture ? (you bet!)

Is it important for manufacturers in the industry to actively sponsor even regional events if just to get recognition in those smaller markets? (By recognition, I mean of the sport of pool, not necessarily their products alone!) (you bet!)
Kudos to OB, Tiger,& Predator for doing a good job here!

So what's wrong with pool? There is verrrry little linkage to each level of pool , let alone thier peers in any one aspect.
Poolrooms fight each other for business instead of co-ordinating for an ad campaign, or organizing a league in a college.

Manufacturers compete to get the best tournaments for ad exposure instead of working together to promote the game.

Promoters do same seeking to maximize profits in any given venture.

All the while there is no structure supporting the game/sport itself.
there needs to be some kind of co-ordinate "structure" in order for the game/industry to survive.

JMHO :smile:
 
Lamenting the loss of the pool room and the individual player mentality is a waste of time. Somewhat liking singing the virtues of the horse and complaining about the noise of the automobile (personally I prefer the horse but that is another story).

The numbers are simply not there and it becomes a matter of learning to live with the new reality.

At one time the cost of a pool table and the space required was beyond the reach of the average person. Today, any serious player will have his own table so why should he go to a public room with all the stigma attached to such places. For a few years I ran a weekly tournament in my home in Ohio for friends and had a great time with 10 – 15 like minded people in attendance most weeks

Sure the people today play on toy tables in bars and then only once a week for an hour or so while they can continue in the somewhat pathological phenomena of adopting a team as member of the family. But that is where we are. Some of these people get serious about the game and they go buy there own table – so why go to a room unless it offers more than I already have at home.

Here in our active retirement community we have four Gold Crown IIIs and it doesn't cost anything to play. There is a tournament everyday and the people who come around are all similar to me in outlook and background – so why go to some public room.

In fact there is a weekly tournament in the town near here and I have been to a few. In our area there are probably twenty communities like mine and from 10 – 40 casual players in each community. I have seen less than ten of these people at the local public room tournaments and less than that on a daily basis. The local public room has too many “red necks” (for lack of a better word) and while the room is nice the people who hang out there are simply too obnoxious. I would rather play in our community room where the atmosphere is much better.

About a year ago I stopped going to the local public room where there are several players much of the time because the crowd is simply too obnoxious. I can't be too far off in my assessment because I would guess that I know a hundred or so guys who are players and few, if any, of them are to be found in the local rooms.

Even us old guys are moving on.
 
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Technology Games like Pong, and moving forward to XBOX , and beyond. This is what the young kids growing up today want to play, not POOL. JMHO. With out NEW YOUNG BLOOD POOL IS DEAD.

How do we get kids interested in Pool? The boys & Girls Club have Pool Tables, but most of the kids are opting for TECHNOLOGY GAME, that not much Skill & Practive, and they can play sitting on their FAT BUTS.
 
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There's many ways to attract women to a pool themed establishment,

Jerry Forsyth said:
Yes, the economy is a serious part of the issue. But the pool decline began four years before the recession began.

What I would like to hear are good ideas. If you owned a poolroom what would you do to set yourself apart and to attract customers?

Has anyone seen a failing poolroom do a turnaround? How did they do it?
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I turned around my Billiard Club by focusing my advertising and marketing to target three types of people in the age range of 21-28.....these thee types are women, ladies, and girls of all creeds, colors and ethnicities utilizing the "law of attraction".

The current pool rooms are a HUGE turnoff to these three types of customers. And without them, you end up with what's normal now, a room full of men, guys, and boys. The rule is "people attract people like themselves," so once the women are "run off" the magnetism of the place takes an unattractive downturn.

There's many ways to attract women to a pool themed establishment, however, you must understand that they want safety, cleanliness, atmosphere, respect, salads on the menu, preferential treatment, protection from "pervs", VIP treatment when appropriate......this formula is universally successful in the bar business, it's just too bad it's infrequently used in the pool room business. 'The Attraction Game is the Teacher'
 
Tramp Steamer said:
The problems that do currently exist must be addressed from the bottom up. Not the top down.
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Though the problems are much separated. Pro pool has little to do with the local rooms and economic issues.

Pro pool needs to go from the top down. As in a governing body, standards, advertising, proper ways of promoting the sport etc...

Local pool needs a stronger economy, work on getting younger generations into the game, promoting local tournaments and participation, etc...
 
How many people here know what Miniclip is?

Did you know they were the website that created "Club Penguin"?

For years this was the predominate "Facebook" for pre-teens, this game was huge.

For the past 2 years there has been a new "Top Game", do you know what it is?

Its Multiplayer 8 ball. That's right, a pool game.

Just thought you would like to know.

www.miniclip.com

JV
 
CJ Wiley said:
I turned around my Billiard Club by focusing my advertising and marketing to target three types of people in the age range of 21-28.....these thee types are women, ladies, and girls of all creeds, colors and ethnicities utilizing the "law of attraction".

The current pool rooms are a HUGE turnoff to these three types of customers. And without them, you end up with what's normal now, a room full of men, guys, and boys. The rule is "people attract people like themselves," so once the women are "run off" the magnetism of the place takes an unattractive downturn.

There's many ways to attract women to a pool themed establishment, however, you must understand that they want safety, cleanliness, atmosphere, respect, salads on the menu, preferential treatment, protection from "pervs", VIP treatment when appropriate......this formula is universally successful in the bar business, it's just too bad it's infrequently used in the pool room business. 'The Attraction Game is the Teacher'
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Sounds like the kind of place I might find interesting and might even go to on a regular basis. Don't mistake me, I am happily married, but I have learned that atmosphere is one of my priorities.
 
I agree with Fran Crimi (as usual). Rooms can't just give out the balls and take the cash anymore; that's what Dave & Buster's (and places of their ilk) does. You have to ENCOURAGE play, with a house pro, lessons, leagues, tournaments, et al. Here in Chicago, Chris's Billiards is mounting a comeback, with refurbished tables and tournaments. Two absolutely mandatory standards for a room's profitability: you have to be hands-on (one of the Hunt brothers is in Amsterdam Billiards daily), and you have to be pro-active. GF
 
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