The "TIMEOUT" during league play....

Whenever I captain a team, I huddle my players together before the first match of the session and point-blank tell them I need to know who on the team wants timeouts called on them and who doesn't. I usually get mixed responses, but I always remember who told me what and obey their wishes. I also tell them that if they change their minds at any point during the session to please make me aware of it. I have had people that literally told me before a match to call a timeout on them if I see them doing something really wrong and then roll their eyes at me for doing just that :scratchhead:. I, for the most part, like my players to just shoot their game, have fun, and do the best that they can, but I have had players that absolutely wanted me to call timeouts on them and got upset if I didn't and let them do something wrong that I could have prevented..

FTR, most of my timeouts I have given have rarely lasted over 30 seconds in length.

When used in the manner that I use them, I feel that timeouts are good. I also tell my players that if they ever see me doing something stupid, to by all means, call one on me. I've been shown a thing or two that I didn't see myself.

Maniac
 
Time outs are great. I call them on myself all the time. My captain has us practice 1 night a week and work on our weakest points. We play for a couple hours. This is question time. he will coach you on any shot and you get ball in hand anytime he misses.

Time outs can be bad if the shooter is prideful and thinks of the time out as being called out instead of a learning opportunity.

The shooter needs to be a team player and want to learn and believe in the coach.

The coach has to be able to coach a sl2 in a way that the 2 can understand and is capable of shooting.
 
Timeouts are the scourge of league play. They are supposed to help weaker players. Mostly they seem to hurt the weaker players by confusing them with overly complex ideas that they are simply incapable of executing properly when it comes right down to it. They also break the rhythm of better players, particularly when they take extra time to consider a shot and someone on their team misinterprets the wait as confusion and calls a timeout. In three seasons of league play, I've not seen even one team adhere to the one-minute rule. I've seen some timeouts against me last as long as 15 minutes as the opposing team discussed endless variations. Invariably, the shooter muffs the darn thing anyway. Timeouts make it far more difficult to exploit an opposing players weakness if his or her team can call a timeout and work out a solution at the critical moment when you've put your opponent in a bad spot based on a weakness in his or her play you've tried to exploit. I always thought pool was a game of me versus you, not me versus you and your team whenever you get in a spot of trouble. I have no idea how or why or when exactly the idea of timeouts got started, but whoever successfully promoted the idea should be taken out to the woodshed.
 
This is almost always a tricky thing. My team captain isnt the best nor the 2nd best player on my team. So therefore he almost never calls a timeout on the players that are better. See the problem is when a timeout is called and when the instructions giving to you fail(either by you missing or not turning out the way it was planned) the player is usually pissed. This session we lost our best player on our team do to a new job. Our 2nd best guy is also on another league on same day so he runs between games. Between him and my Captain they are the ones that usually call timeouts. Sometimes the instructions giving are overly complex. At times the better players fail to realize what may seem to be a standard shot or instruction set to them will look like trigonometry to lower or newer players. A few months ago my team captain decided to let us just play. He would only call a timeout if we where about to do a major mistake. However, recently he has been slowly shying away from this and calling more timeouts. We use to have a guy that would call a timeout on the 8 even it was a simple shot. Well he might of had good intentions but this had a "icing the kicker" effect on us especially the 3's and 4's(me). To be honest i dont know if there is one simple fit all way to do approach this.
 
I love it when an opponent calls a bad time out. A half decent player is down on a shot that they are capable of making and then gets called. The spend 5 minutes talking about a no brainer shot, the coach making it more complicated than it needs to be. Automatic miss. This is a result of not knowing when to use the time out.

When I coach a player who is a competent shot, my aim is to help them do what they are intending. If I see something better I offer it as a suggestion. The shooter decides what they can do and I get out of the way.

With my 2's and 3's I will generally help them decide where to place the BIH or use it to stop them from shooting a sell out shot. They generally call their time out when it's too late and I help them figure out the best way to get unhooked.

A time out isn't a teaching moment. You shouldn't be relating new concepts or advanced techniques. A good coach knows what his player can do and how they approach the game, and then help them best execute their game to put a win up on the board for the team.

:cool:
 
Experienced players always see the right shot?

tksix said:
Sorry I should have qualified this statement. When I said "we" I was referring to experienced players, as opposed to novice players. I understand not everyone knows the "right" shot, including more experienced players. But, my shot selection may be very different than yours, so I would rather let the player shoot, and discuss the table lay out after the game.
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No player always sees the right shot. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a pro say, "I should have gone the other way". I've been a captain/coach on teams since 1966, and a certified instructor since '92. Occasionally the weakest player on my team will call a timeout when I'm at the table, because he or she thinks they see a shot that I don't. Usually they're wrong (I did see it), but I still don't mind that they called the timeout! Better to swallow one's pride than lose the game!!
What kind of sports would we have if only players could call timeouts in FB, BB, etc? They don't allow coaching during a tennis match and players rather blatantly break the rule by looking at the coach's for signals. I've seen this in pool, too: teams have signals for when the shooter should play safe or go for the out.
I think low average players should have at least two timeouts allowed per game (often they need more!), and they should be limited to 30 seconds or so, with one "extension" timeout in unusual situations, that would be one minute.
TEAM POOL IS TEAM POOL! Coaching is cooperation among players, - the key to success!

Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
 
DelaWho??? said:
A time out isn't a teaching moment. You shouldn't be relating new concepts or advanced techniques. A good coach knows what his player can do and how they approach the game, and then help them best execute their game to put a win up on the board for the team.

:cool:
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Exactly. I know what the shooters on my team can and cant do well. Help the 2-3-4 make a shot they are capable of and help them get the "W". I love watching the other captain give their 2 a time out and tell them this overly complicated draw shot to get shape on a ball at the other end of the table. I tell my shooter get ready to get back on the table and go to work.
 
A nice thing about requiring the player to call the coach is, as a captain, you wouldn't have to watch every single shot. I also think the current rule overall creates more conflict than it resolves.
 
tksix said:
So calling a timeout good, bad, annoying?!

I think prior to playing a team needs to discuss this topic. Are we here to win, learn, have fun what?

Also, does the timeout help or hurt the player?

I am of the opinion that the timeout is GOOD, but only if the shooter calls it. I really don't like rail birds calling time outs. All this does is destroy any confidence the shooter had. Also I don't think it teaches that player anything, if they are a weaker player. They need to make the mistake, and then discuss the how's and why's after their shot selection fails.

Sometimes a player just wants to go for the tough cut instead of the safe. We all know the "right" shot, but we learned the right shot by losing games because of our decision. This is the same thing the inexperienced player needs to do. Get tired of losing, and you will discuss your options with an experienced player.

That said, the team will need to be on the same page as far as player skill level and the proper way to coach them.


What are your thoughts?

Mike
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My opinion is the answer to your question is completely dependant on the person who is shooting. I have seen people that get offended when you call timeout on them and others who don't really give a crap.

I will say that a lower skill level player probably doesn't know the best time to use a timeout. I have seen countless times that a player will get in a impossible situation and then call timeout. The timeout would be best used when they have BIH on a open table IMO. I remember getting called to the table for a timeout and my player had no chance of making a legal hit. She asked what to do and I replied "pray". :grin:
 
Post a video of yourself running 50 balls in 14.1 and I guarantee you people who could never run 50 balls will give you advice on things you could have done better.

Same thing in a league, there are people whose own ineptitude does not prevent them from offering advice. I've beaten people in tournaments who came up to me after the match and started critiquing my play.

That's how some people are.
 
rcarson said:
I disagree with this statement, not everyone knows the "right" shot. I have played with some league players that really don't know the right shot and after 20 years, still don't know the right shot. Sometimes you have to be shown what the right shot is. The only way to do that is to take a time out when you notice your player not selecting the correct one.
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Completely agree. My team has discussed this. I am the captain, and my pool knowledge and ability is significantly above the next best on my team. We play 8 ball and after many years most teammates simply do not "get" how to play 8 ball. They want to win. They want the team to win and do well. They are therefore open to timeouts, and have said they are fine with me calling one on them. I try to do this only when they are going badly wrong, or if the particular maneuver changes the layout of that particular game enough in my teammate's favor to be worth it. Thankfully most of my teammates trust me completely, and usually agree with my suggestion once they see me describe it. The only downside is that sometimes they feel a bit "on the spot", and try too hard to do it right. I always begin any time out with "so what were you thinking of doing here?". Sometimes they have a good idea, and we go with that. Most times they are thinking about a major sellout, and they are happy for the timeout.

Like the previous poster said, it is critical for the team to get together on this issue and decide how they want to handle it. There is no reason you couldn't have a different guideline for each player on the team.

I find timeouts to be one of the ways my players learn what to do *without* making the big error. Let them make the errors in practice, and see what they get out of that.

Hope this helps,

KMRUNOUT
 
I generally only call timeouts when one of my players has ball in hand and do not set the cue ball in a good position to run 3+ balls, especially with the less skilled players.

I sometimes call timeouts when the player has been staring at the table for awhile and doesn't seem to be seeing the best option on the table.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think it's better to not have them. It might lead to players preparing before league night, maybe by practicing or getting lessons.
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I see you don't understand tha APA at all. Have you ever played in the APA :rolleyes:

A lot of lesser skilled players learn A LOT from coaching.

Your brainiac method would be to tape the entire event and then go get an instructor to critique your play, like Scott Lee (tongue-in-cheek) or yourself.
 
whitewolf said:
I see you don't understand tha APA at all. Have you ever played in the APA :rolleyes:

A lot of lesser skilled players learn A LOT from coaching.

Your brainiac method would be to tape the entire event and then go get an instructor to critique your play, like Scott Lee (tongue-in-cheek) or yourself.
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Please tell us you're kidding around or that you know Bob well. :eek:
 
Our league allows 3 one minute duration time outs, called only by the player, coached by the same coach, in their single, race to one game. (4 man teams{4x4}, match=16games).

If I am asked to coach, I (now)ask 'what do you like?' Most often, I agree with them, whether I would choose the option, if I was shooting the shot. I now believe that this promotes that the shooter make a decision that fits their own skill set. They then own the shot. Good or bad result. They learn something from either result. This beats the 'I did exactly what you said-and see what happened?'

I used to suggest what I would shoot in a tough situation. It can be difficult to verbally explain a masse shot, a drag spin shot, etc. We are not allowed to manually point or otherwise direct the shot. Once down on the shot, we can no longer verbally coach.

As earlier stated, the lengths that are taken to get around the coaching rules can get creative. The sideline cough, teammate getting up to stand in the line of the shot, pointing instructions made with small finger motions from a hand that appears to grow out of the coach's ribs, coach stands downstream with his cue held vertically like a surveyor stick to mark the fly-on-the wall kicking spot-to name a few.

League play-It has it's own set of challenges. My brother used to run an econo-dragster as an independent campaigner-he used to say-the unspoken mantra was 'if you're not cheating-you're not trying.' Many subscribe to this.

Oh-and I no longer ask-whether the tough situation was inherited or created by our shooter. Not really helpful.

PS: Basically, I agree with Bob. I would rather that there were no coaching allowed. But that isn't going to happen. For many league players-it's their night out-to have fun and drink a bit. Most often-it's easier to ask for help than to help yourself improve with practice, and instruction. It is what it is.
 
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I will be starting my 10th straight session in January as captain of some form of APA team. Boy have I learned a lot! I am a s/l 4/5 and play 8,9 and masters. Masters was easy, just fill in scoresheet, collect money and go home. 8 and 9 were a whole nother animal. took me about 5 sessions to go from heavy handed to easy going. took me a while to learn to coach to the player's "true" ability. had players along the way talk me into their thinking and watched it go way wrong. now, if i see a player about to make a huge blunder that could cost the game i will call it and then try to offer at least 2 alternate shots. there are time when i call a timeout and walk up and ask my player if he saw the rack on the new waaitress just to break tension then walk away. i have called time on 2's thru 7's and try to tailor what i say to each person, still dont always get it right but WTH. we tried. i even called time on my league operator once just to get a chuckle.

i say to each their own, some will gladly accept the help, some will b*tch when they miss even though they missed the spot you showed them by 6 inches, and some just get down right offended. as captain i try to determine early which of these personalities i am dealing with.

so good luck and good shooting and always ahve fun!

Mike
 
We had a guy that was head and shoulders better than anyone else on our team and I used to use him whenever I had ball in hand. He was a great help to me. Some others on our team did not like his advice, but that is okay.
 
DelaWho??? said:
I tell my lower handicap players, the ones that get 2 time out a rack, that I own one time out and they own the other. I will only call that time out if the player is obviously confused, or about to get into trouble.

Players that only get one a rack I leave to their own devices unless I see them about to sell out.

I do have a couple slow players on my team that I will call the time out on if they seem to be taking excessively long. That time out consists of a quick "what were you thinking of doing?" and an offer of an alternative or an encouragement to go for it. It helps move these players along. Nothing worse than a race to 3 taking an hour and a half.

:cool:
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I like this approach. I'm an APA SL3 so getting the time outs called on me allot. (League tonight! Cant Wait!)
They have really begun to bother me. It's my best friend calling them so not getting mad by any streach.
Sometimes I think i need to be able to play MY game, not a SL6's game and may be actually blaming some of my losses on them.

The "lets talk about this" or "what are you seeing" approach goes over better than the "this is what you've got to do"


I think the time outs are cool. They are certainly abused from a time standpoint. (guilty) I'd like to be the one that calls my own the majority of the time, but it boils down to your teams confidence in your game. The better you get, the less and less they'll be calling time out.
 
Chadk said:
Sometimes I think i need to be able to play MY game, not a SL6's game and may be actually blaming some of my losses on them.

The "lets talk about this" or "what are you seeing" approach goes over better than the "this is what you've got to do"


I think the time outs are cool. They are certainly abused from a time standpoint.
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Yes, a lot of people assume that what they're saying can be understood by anybody and that's their first(and biggest) mistake. The next mistake is thinking that you can tell anybody to use a little low left on the hit and that they'll know how to hit it, why and will always make the ball. After years of playing coach, if the person knows all of that stuff, I feel fine explaining that.. if I question it, I make things very easy.. typically I'll offer shots that are center ball(or however they tend to hit, some hit high a lot or low - not on purpose, really), then use a speed of 1-10.

Sometimes you'll get it right, sometimes you'll get it wrong.. sometimes they won't hit it right, but look at you like you just screwed it up. After a while, they'll understand usually that it doesn't always work.

Yeah, some people take forever.. me, I'd just as soon walk away from the table after my minute's up.

Yes on the other.. to take the edge off, I normally ask what they're thinking or planning when I get to the table. If you go into it like they're wrong to begin with, they'll get defensive and won't want to listen. People sometimes even have the right idea and just a little tweak makes it better. Or, confirming their choices makes them more confident in their shot. I tell my teams that they're free to call time-outs on me.. I may not see something or they can just call the time-out to ask me my thoughts on what I'm doing.

I also don't think Wolf was joking around. Most APA players just want to have a night out doing something fun and adding a little competitiveness to it, they don't plan on making it(pool) a nightly fixture in their lives. This is where coaching well comes into play, because you have to be able to coach people that often times may not have a very good grasp of what happens on the table. Coaching during games or giving some tips or instruction to a player after the matches may be the closest some of them come to getting lessons.
 
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