They never saw the $$$$....

[watchez]

What's it to you? Have you been affected financially by professional pool? Are you an aspiring professional player who has been harmed? Has Chuck or KT not paid you monies that are owed?

Enough said.

JAM

So then anyone that is not an aspiring professional player (whatever that term defines as many people who think they are professional players are far from it) or the 5 people that Chuck owes money to are not allowed to voice their opinion or post in this thread?

And to answer your questions,

I have been financially affected by professional pool. More in the past 12 months than many of the posters here. And in a positive way (only a handful can say that). I would like to keep it that way. Promoters like Chuck & KT should be outed so the future of pool is brighter not darker. Hell, it woke Mark G. up to say that he is seriously thinking about sponsoring a pool tour. That is a perfect example that AZBilliards & it's posters that are not professional players or directly effected financially by professional pool should keep on posting & voicing their opinion.

I am not an aspiring professional pool player but I simply like pool & the good people in pool. The bad should be shipped to an island where they can air barrel and dump each other and bounce checks til the end of time. Damn me for not being able to draw my ball or sleeping with someone that can.

I commend Jay for sensing something was not right in the situation & doing his best to protect the players. Unfortunately, I think it will be a long time til this situation is ever corrected.

 

[cigardave]

In my mind pool is a recreational past-time... nothing more, nothing less.

If anybody is able to profit from it, count your blessings.

The gift of being a top notch pool player is more of a curse.

Don't quit your day jobs, folks.

 

[JAM]

Damn me for not being able to draw my ball or sleeping with someone that can.

I'm so sorry to learn you can't draw your rock. I am good at draw shots, as low english has always been my english of choice.

And guess what, some nights, I even allow Keith to sleep with me, the lucky fellow!

Maybe you'll find a lady who can draw a cueball and let you sleep with her someday. Best of luck to you.

JAM

 

[Fast Lenny]

I'm so sorry to learn you can't draw your rock. I am good at draw shots, as low english has always been my english of choice.

And guess what, some nights, I even allow Keith to sleep with me, the lucky fellow!

Maybe you'll find a lady who can draw a cueball and let you sleep with her someday. Best of luck to you.

JAM

This is priceless JAM,lol.

 

[Jason Robichaud]

Might be stressful, but it wouldn't be hard work. I have run small local tournaments and with experience all would become easier. To step in off the street and run that event would be mentally overwhelming. After running a few events and building experience, well. Go step behind the counter of a McDonalds and try to keep up... tell me that wouldn't be overwhelming! They are making pennies for that job. The guy paying the entry putting in hours of practice and a hope of winning to live has a harder job than running the event. They would have to finish 4th to get over $2000. Practice time week before say 30 hours at regular job rate of $10 hour... $300, travel expense, food, rent, car, insurance, kids, wife/girlfriend... and their 4th might be the first good placing in a month or more. Now that is hard and deserving of min $2000.

I own a construction company, so I have to find customers, keep people working, purchase material/tools/supplies, do warranty work, do physical back breaking work every day and yes it is stressful... Had a heart attack couple months ago at 36. I would be happy with $1000 for my 12-14 hour day doing construction.

Jay I see the name you have on here and that would be worth more than most... but for a weeks work $2000 is a really good paying job. Like Doctors, lawyers paying good. I'm just saying some people out there are doing way harder work in a lot more stressful situation for a lot less. I don't think the Troops in Iraq would make $2000 a weekend or even a week.

I am just comparing this part-time job to everyday working people and that is the question I come up with. Why is a TD worth so much? I know people are going to post you do it... thankless job... etc. So is running a Vac truck sucking shit all day from sewers and they don't touch that kind of money.

I'm sounding harsh above, but I wonder, when players are making so little why can TD charge so much? What determines their $50+ hourly rate.

 

[BRKNRUN]

This thread shows just how bad pool in the States really is. Here, you have a guy that promoted some small stuff in the past. Now, for whatever reason, he decides to up the ante and hold a large tournament. So far, all well and good. Except, he doesn't have the money to do it. But, at least he will fill up his place for the weekend.

The attitude of some seems to be, hey, at least he did SOMETHING! Don't condemn the guy just because he ripped everybody off, (almost everybody). How bad is it that we should condone this type of behavior? Oh, he will pay it eventually, he's really a good guy. Isn't this how all professional sports act?

We will NEVER get anywhere as a sport as long as this kind of behavior is allowed. In fact, why don't we add a category to the BCA hall of fame for all those that did so much for pool, but really ripped everybody off? I can think of three names right now that would qualify. And I'm sure there are many more.

Why should ANY outside entity take pool serious when they see this kind of stuff happening? All it does is tarnish 'our' image a little more.

I don't care what the guy has done for pool in the past. Fact is, he KNEW he didn't have the monies for this event, and held it anyway. Not caring how much it hurt the players that attended. That DOES NOT make him just a good guy that made a mistake. That took forethought on his part. A good guy that just made a mistake would have said before the event that he had to cancel it due to unforseen circumstances. And if he was just scared to face anyone when he knew what was happening, he has NO business being in a position of 'authority' in the sport.

With complete and total respect...I think you are off base on Chuck.

He does not own a pool room......Sure he did front money to buy Diamond Bar boxes for the room that he frequented most...I would imagine that there was a business agreement but I would be speculating if I knew what that was....I can't imagine he made a "killing" on the deal...I would "speculate" that it was more becuase he wanted to see the players around him in the room he frequented to have better equipment to play on.

He is just a guy that loves to play pool and loves to see "good players" play...He has supported up an coming players by paying entries loaning cues paying hotel bills etc. etc.

Frankly I give him more respect for that because he does not have the millions to throw around like others do... He does not have a bankroll that allows him to "tip out more than his bill"..... I give complete respect to those people that have earned that kind of money through legitimate means and are now able to throw around money like it is paper... more power to them.

Chuck did it even though he was on a more limited means to do so...

You don't have to believe me on this since you only know me through posts... but I have been around Chuck long enough to know his passion for the game.....In reality the only "profit" he may have made was from potentail future orders for his business... You could say it was a form of marketing sure...but the reality is...Chuck just enjoyed being around and watching good pool players.

Example: Two years ago he put together a BCA team made up of 6 guys...He played week in and week out to qualify just so he could keep score during the main event in Las Vegas...He had no intention of actually playing he just wanted to be around the game...He also paid a majority of the team expenses including the entry fee and casino rooms.... When the team cashed...He split up the payout evenly even though his share did not nearly cover his expenses...

His "Hey Buddy" comment he made to Jay is his nature...He says that to everyone...He is just one of those freindly people.

And (In Hindesight) and unfortunatly for Arizona Pool.... I think Chuck would probably agree with you that he should no longer attempt to promote ANY kind of Pool Event....It is real easy to say that after the fact...

But I don't blame him for making the effort......And I would not blame him for never sponsoring another dime after seeing how quick the rope get brought out.

I hope for Jay's (and the players) sake this all gets worked out and can be put to rest......But I suspect (as JAM pointed out) we have lost a true supporter that loves the game......(JMPO)

 

[vagabond]

If I were you, I wouldn't want to hang out in pool rooms watching action or traveling the world to attend pool tournaments where these pool player creatures hang out, poising themselves to bite sponsor hands.

Try badminton. The players may provide better entertainment for you.

JAM

Wow,JAM,

You look hot when you are angry.

 

[JAM]

Wow,JAM,

You look hot when you are angry.

Oh, that ain't me, Vagabond. I posted up the badminton picture because of your obvious desire, as evidenced by your avatar, to look at women's sweat glands.

JAM

 

[Celtic]

Gotta side somewhat with Jason here. I have run smaller local tournaments up to 48 players and really it is not that hugely hard to do a decent job. There is more then just writing down some names yes, you need to work out the payouts, make the draw, get the money from the players, explain to a couple players why you are not paying more then 1/4 of the field, explain to a few other players why you are paying 1/4 of the field, ref some shots, deal with the odd issue in a match, make sure the players know their start time and that if they don't show up on time they will in fact forfeit, ect...

And after it is all said and done it is worlds less work then I was doing when I was a supervising archaeologist working in Fort St. John in minus 25 degrees C removing snow from topographical features that have a high chance of cultural remains, using a cement saw to cut a 1X1 foot square in the frozen ground, pickaxing the frozen ground out and packing it into a individual labled sack so that we could take that soil back to the shop where it would then be thawed into a muddy mess that we could then go through screening to make sure there was no cultural remains. And we made one hell of alot less money then $50 an hour and required a university degree for the privilege of that job. I have worked 12-14 hour days on weekends where all my time was 1.5 and never came close to making $2000 over a weekend, I did not even make 1/4 of that.

If you think that $2500 is reasonable for the amount of work you put in as a tournament director over a weekend tournament I don't think you have any idea what alot of people do in their daily jobs to make their money, training/education they had to do in order to actually get that job, and the amount of actual work and stress that job actually entails.

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[PETARD]

Amen For More Pool In Az

 

[Neil]

.................

 

[PETARD]

$2500 For Tournament Director

Seems like Chuck didn't lose anything as the players and tournament director are the one's taking a hit.

Mark - if you do a tour, I would have to think it would be done right. Please pick me to be the tournament director. I like the sound of $2500 pay for a weekend of work.

watchez, while $2500 may seem like a great deal of money to some, it was not a weekend for Jay as I was there every day. These were long days from Wednesday on and anyone thinking $2500 was a great deal of money is not capable of duplicating the job Jay did; this is not to knock you but a real pro like Jay deserves more than that.

 

[PETARD]

Jay, You Forgot To Mention Dealing With "pots And Pans" Every Day; Worth More Than $2500 By Himself.

 

[JAM]

watchez, while $2500 may seem like a great deal of money to some, it was not a weekend for Jay as I was there every day. These were long days from Wednesday on and anyone thinking $2500 was a great deal of money is not capable of duplicating the job Jay did; this is not to knock you but a real pro like Jay deserves more than that.

Hear, hear, and tap, tap, tap.

I remember complaining to the auto mechanic for the huge bill I received for maintenance. I noticed one item said "Turn Screw, 32 cents."

I mean the nerve of them charging me 32 damn cents. When I confronted the mechanic about this, he said, "But lady, what you don't realize is that you're paying for my knowledge of knowing which screw needed to be turned."

Running a pool tournament is an awful chore. I ran the Maryland State Tournament in '86, and every single player seemed to have problems. If it wasn't the rules, then it was the wait. There was one player who was slow as a turtle, and it held up the charts. You can't satisfy everybody.

In Jay's case, he had to pay for travel, hotel, food, and all the other expenses that go into being at a pool event, just like the players. The player usually compete in one match per day, most times. Jay is there for all matches all day. When everybody leaves to rest up for the next day, Jay has to stay until the last ball drops.

It's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it!
JAM

 

[watchez]

watchez, while $2500 may seem like a great deal of money to some, it was not a weekend for Jay as I was there every day. These were long days from Wednesday on and anyone thinking $2500 was a great deal of money is not capable of duplicating the job Jay did; this is not to knock you but a real pro like Jay deserves more than that.

That wasn't my point. If Jay can get $5000 a weekend, then more power to him. I was just saying that I would be welcome to working for the same pay. Not making a comment on what Jay is worth. And no one should ever be embarrassed about how much money they make. I don't judge people on how much money they have. Some people can only have the skill to make a small wage. But if you sit around all day, day after day, sleep on the couch, stay up all night cause that is when the better TV shows are on and make nothing, that would be embarrassing.

It was more of a comment that this promoter, in financial need, should have weighed the thought of paying a TD $2500 when he knew he couldn't pay it.
Again, Chuck has many holes in his business plan.

 

[av84fun]

That is all well and good...but he wrote the checks! Are you suggesting that he just had no clue that his account didn't have the funds?

Are you suggesting that he just had to move some money out of his savings account to cover the checks but just forgot and KEPT forgetting?

Hey, the world is full of supposedly "nice guys" who end up ripping people off.

Personally, I don't believe for one single minute that he did this as just some marketing gimmick for his business. People who do that have a marketing BUDGET.

He DID IT, thinking he was going to make a reasonable profit FOR HIMSELF and he air barrelled a LOT of people when it turned out he was wrong.

Hey...this wasn't New Orleans in the wake of Katrina. The man wrote the checks knowing they were readers.

So far, I have heard nothing that excuses such behavior.

With complete and total respect...I think you are off base on Chuck.

He does not own a pool room......Sure he did front money to buy Diamond Bar boxes for the room that he frequented most...I would imagine that there was a business agreement but I would be speculating if I knew what that was....I can't imagine he made a "killing" on the deal...I would "speculate" that it was more becuase he wanted to see the players around him in the room he frequented to have better equipment to play on.

He is just a guy that loves to play pool and loves to see "good players" play...He has supported up an coming players by paying entries loaning cues paying hotel bills etc. etc.

Frankly I give him more respect for that because he does not have the millions to throw around like others do... He does not have a bankroll that allows him to "tip out more than his bill"..... I give complete respect to those people that have earned that kind of money through legitimate means and are now able to throw around money like it is paper... more power to them.

Chuck did it even though he was on a more limited means to do so...

You don't have to believe me on this since you only know me through posts... but I have been around Chuck long enough to know his passion for the game.....In reality the only "profit" he may have made was from potentail future orders for his business... You could say it was a form of marketing sure...but the reality is...Chuck just enjoyed being around and watching good pool players.

Example: Two years ago he put together a BCA team made up of 6 guys...He played week in and week out to qualify just so he could keep score during the main event in Las Vegas...He had no intention of actually playing he just wanted to be around the game...He also paid a majority of the team expenses including the entry fee and casino rooms.... When the team cashed...He split up the payout evenly even though his share did not nearly cover his expenses...

His "Hey Buddy" comment he made to Jay is his nature...He says that to everyone...He is just one of those freindly people.

And (In Hindesight) and unfortunatly for Arizona Pool.... I think Chuck would probably agree with you that he should no longer attempt to promote ANY kind of Pool Event....It is real easy to say that after the fact...

But I don't blame him for making the effort......And I would not blame him for never sponsoring another dime after seeing how quick the rope get brought out.

I hope for Jay's (and the players) sake this all gets worked out and can be put to rest......But I suspect (as JAM pointed out) we have lost a true supporter that loves the game......(JMPO)

 

[Jason Robichaud]

32 cents for a screw... thats funny. His knowledge was knowing who to try and charge the 32 cents to. That would take years of trial and error. Jam, did you get your 32 cents back?

Here in Calgary they charge $100 per hour. They flat rate everything. They can bill out 4 hours for 1 hour work. They have a very good setup going on. Smaller locations are better to deal with.

 

[corvette1340]

This thread shows just how bad pool in the States really is. Here, you have a guy that promoted some small stuff in the past. Now, for whatever reason, he decides to up the ante and hold a large tournament. So far, all well and good. Except, he doesn't have the money to do it. But, at least he will fill up his place for the weekend.

The attitude of some seems to be, hey, at least he did SOMETHING! Don't condemn the guy just because he ripped everybody off, (almost everybody). How bad is it that we should condone this type of behavior? Oh, he will pay it eventually, he's really a good guy. Isn't this how all professional sports act?

We will NEVER get anywhere as a sport as long as this kind of behavior is allowed. In fact, why don't we add a category to the BCA hall of fame for all those that did so much for pool, but really ripped everybody off? I can think of three names right now that would qualify. And I'm sure there are many more.

Why should ANY outside entity take pool serious when they see this kind of stuff happening? All it does is tarnish 'our' image a little more.

I don't care what the guy has done for pool in the past. Fact is, he KNEW he didn't have the monies for this event, and held it anyway. Not caring how much it hurt the players that attended. That DOES NOT make him just a good guy that made a mistake. That took forethought on his part. A good guy that just made a mistake would have said before the event that he had to cancel it due to unforseen circumstances. And if he was just scared to face anyone when he knew what was happening, he has NO business being in a position of 'authority' in the sport.

Great post. I agree 100%. While Chuck may be a good guy and has done good stuff in the past, it doesnt excuse his writing bad checks and knowingly hosting a tourney without the money to pay off, period.

 

[corvette1340]

So then anyone that is not an aspiring professional player (whatever that term defines as many people who think they are professional players are far from it) or the 5 people that Chuck owes money to are not allowed to voice their opinion or post in this thread?

And to answer your questions,

I have been financially affected by professional pool. More in the past 12 months than many of the posters here. And in a positive way (only a handful can say that). I would like to keep it that way. Promoters like Chuck & KT should be outed so the future of pool is brighter not darker. Hell, it woke Mark G. up to say that he is seriously thinking about sponsoring a pool tour. That is a perfect example that AZBilliards & it's posters that are not professional players or directly effected financially by professional pool should keep on posting & voicing their opinion.

I am not an aspiring professional pool player but I simply like pool & the good people in pool. The bad should be shipped to an island where they can air barrel and dump each other and bounce checks til the end of time. Damn me for not being able to draw my ball or sleeping with someone that can.

I commend Jay for sensing something was not right in the situation & doing his best to protect the players. Unfortunately, I think it will be a long time til this situation is ever corrected.

Another good post. A+. Would read again.

When something like this happens it affects everyone involved in pool to some capacity. It affects the players first, then the people that watch and pay money at the tournaments thereby allowing the players to even have tournaments. The fans are what drive any sporting event. I've been on both ends of the spectrum, I've hosted tournaments with added money that I lost my ass on and guess what, I kept having them because my paying customers wanted to watch some of the better players play. For someone to think that the players are the only ones affected by this is ridiculous.