This spot shot bullshit has got to stop

DDiabolico

DDiabolico
Without reading thorugh the whole thread, here's my opinion:

I don't like the shootouts as they are now.

I think it would be better to play two sets to 5 and keep the winner break. Otherwise, change it to alternate break.
Don't get me wrong, I love to see players put some racks together, but in a race to 4 with winner break there's a good chance for the player who won the lag to secure 2 or 3 games, then play save if the don't have an opening shot. In such a short race this format puts way too much weight on the importance of the lag.

I'd like to see two sets, race to 5, winner break or race to 4, alternate break. When tied, let there be a shootout but a player must win the shootout with 2 points difference.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
These shots, from 1st diamond, are in sudden death phase—where you get if tied after 4 innings from 2nd diamond. Also, 10-ball is not on the spot but rather in racked 10-ball location. Scratch is a miss.
PM sent
 

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
By data, do you mean his claim that 80-90% of breaks are dry? This is at odds atlarge’s report of 50% dry breaks on the tv table And 46% for the 200 games of the final 3 days on that table. For those 200 games, he reports 20% break and runs.
I read Shane's post. Not clear what he was referring too. Did he mean it's harder to make a ball on the break in 10 ball vs 9 ball? Maybe he just doesn't like playing 10 ball.
 

Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
Silver Member
I read Shane's post. Not clear what he was referring too. Did he mean it's harder to make a ball on the break in 10 ball vs 9 ball? Maybe he just doesn't like playing 10 ball.
I assume Shane would be referring to manual racking instead of template racking and the racking being done by a neutral party (rather then rack your own) and using the new Predator rack which he may not know the nuances of yet.

Shane has arguably the best 10-ball break in the world when he plays rack your own or uses the template.

I'm a Shane fan, but his post is a bit obtuse in my opinion. I like the fact they are manually racking and using a neutral party to do the racking. By nature, 10-ball is harder to make a ball then 9-ball but racking by hand being done by a ref and you have to break the rack they give you really gives some variety on the break and cuts down on the break and run factor making it even harder to make a ball. The second balls are no longer dead to the side pockets (provided you know how to make them there) and you really need to hit them harder to get them moving to drop a ball on the break.

Shane plays phenomenal, and his 10ball break is really one of his best advantages over other players, but this format really mitigates that.
 

kling&allen

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
By data, do you mean his claim that 80-90% of breaks are dry? This is at odds atlarge’s report of 50% dry breaks on the tv table And 46% for the 200 games of the final 3 days on that table. For those 200 games, he reports 20% break and runs.

I don't speak for SVB, but he appears to be saying the format (the rack triangle + spot shot shootout) eliminates his break advantage against players like Fedor. I'll trust SVB's judgment on that topic, but 50% dry breaks on a 9ft table is high based on AtLarge's other data (https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/break/stats/) even without looking at B&R stats among FR > 780 players.

Regardless, thank you for sponsoring this event. Even if you accept SVB's analysis, perhaps it's better for pool to reduce the importance of the break. I would bet Oi's 14-ball shootout drew more views than a hill-hill B&R.
 

Joe_Jaguar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I assume Shane would be referring to manual racking instead of template racking and the racking being done by a neutral party (rather then rack your own) and using the new Predator rack which he may not know the nuances of yet.

Shane has arguably the best 10-ball break in the world when he plays rack your own or uses the template.

I'm a Shane fan, but his post is a bit obtuse in my opinion. I like the fact they are manually racking and using a neutral party to do the racking. By nature, 10-ball is harder to make a ball then 9-ball but racking by hand being done by a ref and you have to break the rack they give you really gives some variety on the break and cuts down on the break and run factor making it even harder to make a ball. The second balls are no longer dead to the side pockets (provided you know how to make them there) and you really need to hit them harder to get them moving to drop a ball on the break.

Shane plays phenomenal, and his 10ball break is really one of his best advantages over other players, but this format really mitigates that.
They were also required to break from side box, right?
 

Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
Silver Member
They were also required to break from side box, right?
I wasn't sure about that. You are probably right. I thought they might have been breaking from the side rail to try and play the 1 in the side since the 2nd balls werent going.

A lot of rules and stipulations in this event.
 

Joe_Jaguar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I wasn't sure about that. You are probably right. I thought they might have been breaking from the side rail to try and play the 1 in the side since the 2nd balls werent going.

A lot of rules and stipulations in this event.
Maybe it wasn't required. There is no mention of it in the "player guide" for the event.
 

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I assume Shane would be referring to manual racking instead of template racking and the racking being done by a neutral party (rather then rack your own) and using the new Predator rack which he may not know the nuances of yet.

Shane has arguably the best 10-ball break in the world when he plays rack your own or uses the template.

I'm a Shane fan, but his post is a bit obtuse in my opinion. I like the fact they are manually racking and using a neutral party to do the racking. By nature, 10-ball is harder to make a ball then 9-ball but racking by hand being done by a ref and you have to break the rack they give you really gives some variety on the break and cuts down on the break and run factor making it even harder to make a ball. The second balls are no longer dead to the side pockets (provided you know how to make them there) and you really need to hit them harder to get them moving to drop a ball on the break.

Shane plays phenomenal, and his 10ball break is really one of his best advantages over other players, but this format really mitigates that.
I completely agree about the break. Add in the players are not allowed to inspect the rack and the break gets even harder.
 

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It sure seems to me like it would be (B) that has less cut induced throw because gearing english (or something nearing it anyway) is typically used with (B), and (B) also tends to be hit firmer, both of which working to reduce cut induced throw over what (A) produces. Of course the trade off is that with (B) (if gearing english was used) you now have squirt and swerve that you have to deal with that you would not have with (A) (as long as no side spin was used).
If we assume the same outside spin, e.g., none, and also assume the (B) shot is hit harder, then there is both a speed dependence to the throw (little less throw on harder shots) and a rolling-spin dependence (less throw when some of the ball rubbing direction is up and down). They work in different directions. My guess is the speed dependence over this range is minor and the rolling dependence is not so minor. Bob Jewett? Dave Alciatore?
 

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
You want a new format that gives both players chances and doesn't have dumbass spot shots, this is it.

Three races to 5. First break determined by lag, winner break first set, alternate player breaks first second set, still winner break. If they trade sets, final set is lag for first break again, alternating break, win by 2.

Jaden
 

Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shootout Style....interesting.

Albin Ouschans' with Garcia was informative.
Albin shot....using a rolling cue ball.
Garcia, born in the humidity of the Philippines' punches it, shoots the object ball as if it he was playing in dirty/damp conditions.
As your cue ball is positioned closer to the head rail, rolling it will pocket more balls, because of longer distance/sharper angle....and spin starts to release/unwind.
 

Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You want a new format that gives both players chances and doesn't have dumbass spot shots, this is it.

Three races to 5. First break determined by lag, winner break first set, alternate player breaks first second set, still winner break. If they trade sets, final set is lag for first break again, alternating break, win by 2.

Jaden
Best 3 outta five, single elimination race to???
What ever number is best for the production/sport/players.
7 minute breaks between sets. Or? This aspect would evolve, change I'm sure.
Go home early, save on your room charge.
This helps the up and coming pros, keep the nut down and in turn, play more events.
 

Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
Silver Member
Changes the races from 4 to 7 and I think this format is waaaay better and preserves the sudden death shootout. Just my opinion.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
You want a new format that gives both players chances and doesn't have dumbass spot shots, this is it.

Three races to 5. First break determined by lag, winner break first set, alternate player breaks first second set, still winner break. If they trade sets, final set is lag for first break again, alternating break, win by 2.

Jaden
I like it except win by two in the final set. That seems unnecessary.

Also, in a best of three sets format, race to four is plenty for my taste, and I'd even be OK with races to three.
 
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ctyhntr

RIP Kelly
Silver Member
You want a new format that gives both players chances and doesn't have dumbass spot shots, this is it.

Three races to 5. First break determined by lag, winner break first set, alternate player breaks first second set, still winner break. If they trade sets, final set is lag for first break again, alternating break, win by 2.

Jaden
The current format was chosen because it can fit TV time frame. The matches were scheduled every 90 minutes.
 

Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
Silver Member
The current format was chosen because it can fit TV time frame. The matches were scheduled every 90 minutes.
I don't think any TV station is going to broadcast pool for more then an hour time frame per episode. Add commercials to that and you are looking at about 42mins of actual broadcast time. Introductions and Player Interviews and Closing comments you are now down to about 37 minutes of actual play time.

None of the matches on youtube came in less then an hour. I know there are some breaks added in to each one, but nothing near getting it down to under 50 mins of all match time. Not to mention, these videos dont have the other elements of a televised broadcast that I mentioned above.

They are really going to have to edit out/chop up a lot of the racks from each matches, especially if there is a shootout. Probably half of the racks will have to be abridged to fit into a 60 minute TV block with commercials.
 

ctyhntr

RIP Kelly
Silver Member
I don't think any TV station is going to broadcast pool for more then an hour time frame per episode. Add commercials to that and you are looking at about 42mins of actual broadcast time. Introductions and Player Interviews and Closing comments you are now down to about 37 minutes of actual play time.

None of the matches on youtube came in less then an hour. I know there are some breaks added in to each one, but nothing near getting it down to under 50 mins of all match time. Not to mention, these videos dont have the other elements of a televised broadcast that I mentioned above.

They are really going to have to edit out/chop up a lot of the racks from each matches, especially if there is a shootout. Probably half of the racks will have to be abridged to fit into a 60 minute TV block with commercials.
I've never seen a football, baseball or basketball match allotted that little time on TV.
 
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