Thomas Wayne lose his diginity on Cuezilla.
- Thread starter bobroberts
- Start date
You call your friend Ernie G. an "innovator?" That's got to be the understatement of the year. That man is a cue-building genius!
Roger
Believe me, I totally understand.
We aren't talking about some cabinet maker turned cueman, we aren't talking about some musical instrument maker turned cueman, and we aren't talking about generalized machinist turned cueman or an enthusiast/hobbyist turned cueman and refining and honing their craft as they go.
And that is not to say that anyone of them can't make a great cue, but when it comes down to whos got the smarts...
How many other cuemakers have contributed to deep space probes that might be searching the heavens, make contact with alien lifeforms if they exist, and will probably be floating through space for who knows how many years to come.
HAHA
Jim Buss comes to mind.
Rep
I also new this about Mike. He is no dummy and to me I could care less about the exact terminology used to describe the construction of the Dragon Cue. No matter how you look at it it is a Monster Cue and personally I feel that Mr. Wayne would have been better off keeping his opinion to himself. After all is said and done he has only made me question his own integrity by being so anal about one particular cue..JMO!
I also new this about Mike. He is no dummy and to me I could care less about the exact terminology used to describe the construction of the Dragon Cue. No matter how you look at it it is a Monster Cue and personally I feel that Mr. Wayne would have been better off keeping his opinion to himself. After all is said and done he has only made me question his own integrity by being so anal about one particular cue..JMO!
No axis substitution.
Like GibbsCAM? Cuezilla.com states that's what Lambros uses.
Fred
Fred,l
I have only been doing 4-axis cue work for 30 years and perhaps you have been around cuemaking longer than my 44 years but I think you are missing the real point here.
For someone to claim they are doing 4-axis cuemaking and not actually doing so is a major insult to the few cuemakers that really understand what 4-axis machining is as it applies to cuemaking.
I know I spent years and almost 100K trying to understand what true 4-axis cuework was and what kind of machine it would take to do it.
Thomas did too.
If anyone wants to put in the time and money to do this kind of work I would have no complaint. In fact, I would help them as much as I could. I'm sure Thomas would do the same.
But for someone to attempt to take credit for something they did not accomplish is just plain WRONG and I resent it.
Sincerely,
Bill Stroud
I used GibbsCam also for a few years.
At the time this cue was completed (2003) GibbsCam did not do true 4-axis rotary motion. It still doesn't do it very well.
That is why I bought EdgeCam. It does true 4-axis rotary and cost about 18K.
Bill Stroud
Dave,
The work you are describing can be done with 3-axis machining. One axis is simply the rotary. This will result in a pocket of uniform depth in a cylinder. Some (but not all) of the sides of the pocket will have tapered walls pointing at the center line of the cylinder.
This is not true 4-axis machining. It is axis substitution. Rotary motion is simply substituted for one of the linear axis. That's where the name comes from.
Bill Stroud
If anyone wants to put in the time and money to do this kind of work I would have no complaint. In fact, I would help them as much as I could. I'm sure Thomas would do the same.
Sincerely,
Bill Stroud[/QUOTE]
Thanks Mr. Stroud, for sharing your expertise in this matter and for your lasting contribution to the art of cue making.
Sincerely,
Bill Stroud[/QUOTE]
Thanks Mr. Stroud, for sharing your expertise in this matter and for your lasting contribution to the art of cue making.
Bill,
I'm not a machinist, just interested...can you help me understand?
I get that 2 axes create a box lets say. The 3rd axis is rotary. What I don't get is how you would get a uniform depth in the pocket without either raising and lowering the work (which seems like it would be another axis) or else raising or lowering the cutting tool. Oh wait...its becoming clear...you're saying that the rotary axis is replacing one of the XY axes to make the shape. So you are saying that you could have X, Rotary, and depth be the 3 axes involved? If so, I think I am understanding you.
Is this right?
KMRUNOUT
Edit: also, could you give an example of what the 4 axes would be in "true" 4 axis work? I'm having trouble visualizing...
Last edited:
To clarify Bill, I am not a cuemaker nor do I pretend to be. I'm an automation engineering manager and a former motions controls engineer.
Maybe this is the rub. I come from a fabricating and custom system design and building background, and nothing to with cues. My discussion is on this 4th axis terminology as used in the rest of the world industries. I build multi-million dollar systems. I guess I understand your resentment. I hope you understand that I therefore find it odd (not resentment) that you would use a term differently in cue building that I understand differently in my industry.
Fred <~~~ not a cuemaker
Last edited:
Hopefully Bill will answer you but here is how it works on the laser we own.
Normally the laser head travels on the x/y axis which is left-right and back-front. The head sits at a fixed height from the work and so the depth is consistent. The work is fixed in place and the laser head moves.
When the rotary is installed then the rotary replaces the y-axis.
Now the laser head moves left-right but NOT back-front. Instead the WORK now moves back-front while the laser head travels left-right. Thus it is possible to make in this manner pockets which wrap around the cue in an unbroken line. Picture a candy cane - this is possible to make in a cue using the laser where the rotary attachment replaces the y-axis. You can laser 360 degrees around the cue. Actually you can laser more than that to infinite rotations.
As Bill said though the issue is the tapered walls.
As a challenge to myself I have duplicated Thomas Wayne's wrap which he did on the snake skeleton cue. I have made a template which allows me to laser engrave around a cue.
That's for making pockets. Making the inlays to fit a curved space is the problem.
Think about it - with regular inlays you are essentially putting a block into a hole and cutting off the excess at the top. If you take the cut inlay back out you end up with a piece that's flat on the bottom and curved on top. This is the reason that inlays can only go so far before they weaken the cue - i.e. you have to cut out too much of the base in order to have wider inlays that traverse the more of the circumference.
So the answer to making inlays that go around the cue is to cut pockets by moving the cue while the end mill is cutting. But then you get pockets which have curved bottoms. How do you now get inlay pieces to have curved bottoms to match your pockets?
I won't tell you that just yet.
Just will tell you that it's possible to do it on a laser engraver/cutter when you have a rotary attachment that replaces the y-axis. So you can see that one does not need a 4-axis machine to do inlays that wrap around the cue.Also I should mention that some machines have a z-axis which is the vertical movement, either the work moves up and down or the milling tool moves up and down. With a Z-axis the depth can be varied and essentially the machine can sculpt by either cutting away material or cutting out material. In other words leave an egg where a block was or make a hole that an egg fits into.
And that's about all I know. My very limited knowledge stems from using the laser to decorate cues and compared to Bill and Thomas' it's the equivalent of comparing a guy who goes on the slip and slide once a summer to Olympic divers.
Hmmmm.
The proverbial "Bigger Better Best" contest has started.
.
I'm obviously have no desire to get into a dick swinging contest with Bill Stroud. Especially if we're talking about cues.
There's clearly a gap between my understanding of the term and what he and Thomas are saying. I understand what they're saying. Hopefully, I've made my point clearly and succinctly enough. The world is bigger than cuemaking and this gap of understanding exists.
I mean, as of a couple of weeks ago, I had no idea that there was a difference between when a cuemaker says "4th axis work" vs a traditional machinist who might say "4th axis work." Now I am educated. I only hope everyone else is educated as well. And I mean everyone.
Fred
Hopefully Bill will answer you but here is how it works on the laser we own.
Normally the laser head travels on the x/y axis which is left-right and back-front. The head sits at a fixed height from the work and so the depth is consistent. The work is fixed in place and the laser head moves.
When the rotary is installed then the rotary replaces the y-axis.
Now the laser head moves left-right but NOT back-front. Instead the WORK now moves back-front while the laser head travels left-right. Thus it is possible to make in this manner pockets which wrap around the cue in an unbroken line. Picture a candy cane - this is possible to make in a cue using the laser where the rotary attachment replaces the y-axis. You can laser 360 degrees around the cue. Actually you can laser more than that to infinite rotations.
As Bill said though the issue is the tapered walls.
As a challenge to myself I have duplicated Thomas Wayne's wrap which he did on the snake skeleton cue. I have made a template which allows me to laser engrave around a cue.
That's for making pockets. Making the inlays to fit a curved space is the problem.
Think about it - with regular inlays you are essentially putting a block into a hole and cutting off the excess at the top. If you take the cut inlay back out you end up with a piece that's flat on the bottom and curved on top. This is the reason that inlays can only go so far before they weaken the cue - i.e. you have to cut out too much of the base in order to have wider inlays that traverse the more of the circumference.
So the answer to making inlays that go around the cue is to cut pockets by moving the cue while the end mill is cutting. But then you get pockets which have curved bottoms. How do you now get inlay pieces to have curved bottoms to match your pockets?
I won't tell you that just yet.
Also I should mention that some machines have a z-axis which is the vertical movement, either the work moves up and down or the milling tool moves up and down. With a Z-axis the depth can be varied and essentially the machine can sculpt by either cutting away material or cutting out material. In other words leave an egg where a block was or make a hole that an egg fits into.
And that's about all I know. My very limited knowledge stems from using the laser to decorate cues and compared to Bill and Thomas' it's the equivalent of comparing a guy who goes on the slip and slide once a summer to Olympic divers.
John,
I appreciate the effort in explaining this. What you said better than I basically talks about the 3 axis idea, which I get. I am a little confused what the 4th axis could be, and how it would be used. So say you have X, Rotary, Z (up and down of either the work or the tool)....what else would you have? Y (side to side) *in addition* to rotary?
Thanks for the help, I'm eager to hear Bill's answer too.
KMRUNOUT