To all SPF students: Pix = 1000 words

JoeyA...That is the biggest pile of crap I've ever read on this forum. ALL of us have provided TONS of FREE information on any facet of teaching, or understanding, how to help someone play better. I, for one, have NEVER EVER declined to answer questions from anybody who directed them to me, whether here in a public post, or a private PM. I've never held anything back, including information on SAM (which is more more difficult to explain in writing, than it is to demonstrate in person...not unlike the hundreds of posts on CTE/Hal Houle). I've also posted on countless other threads, giving my opinions, and offering advice. Yes, some of it has been to search out a qualified instructor...but much more often, it's been solid advice...ALWAYS free of charge. You've got huge balls to make that statement, when you've done ZERO research to support it. :angry: None of us "farm" this site for students. People search us out, because we offer help in something they desire... improving their pool game. I've had quite a bit of respect for you in the past. This post causes me to lose much of that feeling...and that's a shame.

One more thing...ALL of us are disciples of Jerry Briesath. He's the main reason that Randy and I started teaching, and continues to advise us to this day! He founded the BCA Certified Instructor program almost 20 yrs ago.

Oh, and about "contributing" to Lou...that's doubtful, since I don't gamble on pool! I will, however, bet heavily that the BCA/SPF instructor program continues to grow, and get better year after year!

Scott Lee
poolknowledge.com

If what I write is the biggest pile of crap that you have ever read on the forum, you must read about as much as you contribute. FTR, I receive PM's and private emails that concur with my observations about what I witness on this forum. If you are so closed-minded that you can't accept reading the truth then so be it.

Declining to answer questions and volunteering to answer questions is two different things.

My advice to you, RandyG and pooltchr is to start teaching on this forum for free or simply start paying for a nice advertisement banner to help Mike Howerton with his IRA. But like with anything you can take it or leave it. I really don't care. I do care about the forum and like to see it evolve into a more positive format.

I am fully aware that you are disciples of Jerry Briesath and I have been fully aware that Jerry established the BCA certified program. I only mentioned his name to let you know that I don't have any problem with BCA instructors as a whole, just those who only mine the forum PRIMARILY for their own personal benefit.

For examples of what I think you should be doing, simply look toward people like Dr. David G. Alciatore, Mike Page, Bob Jewett, Pat Johnson, JAL (Jim)BlackJack, David Sapolis etc. SPF, take the iniative to CONTRIBUTE in this forum on a pro bono REGULAR basis and you will expand your fan base to include maybe even me. :wink:

There are MANY OTHER CONTRIBUTORS that make a very fine contribution to this forum and I hope that you will join them in moving forward.

And as far as me doing research to substantiate my claims, one only has to read the content of the forums to see who the real contributors are that step up to the plate time after time, without being asked, begged or cajoled. The emails and PM's that I receive substantiate what I have said but I didn't need those perspectives to voice my opinion.

It is too bad that you have lost respect for me but maybe you will see the error of your ways and correct them. If not so be it. You nor anyone else is under any obligation to do anything different.

The purpose of this post isn't to find fault with you or set anyone else in their place but hopefully to move everyone forward in a more postive manner that might benefit the forum as a whole.

Best Regards,
JoeyA
 
If what I write is the biggest pile of crap that you have ever read on the forum, you must read about as much as you contribute. FTR, I receive PM's and private emails that concur with my observations about what I witness on this forum. If you are so closed-minded that you can't accept reading the truth then so be it.

Declining to answer questions and volunteering to answer questions is two different things.

My advice to you, RandyG and pooltchr is to start teaching on this forum for free or simply start paying for a nice advertisement banner to help Mike Howerton with his IRA. But like with anything you can take it or leave it. I really don't care. I do care about the forum and like to see it evolve into a more positive format.

I am fully aware that you are disciples of Jerry Briesath and I have been fully aware that Jerry established the BCA certified program. I only mentioned his name to let you know that I don't have any problem with BCA instructors as a whole, just those who only mine the forum PRIMARILY for their own personal benefit.

For examples of what I think you should be doing, simply look toward people like Dr. David G. Alciatore, Mike Page, Bob Jewett, Pat Johnson, JAL (Jim)BlackJack, David Sapolis etc. SPF, take the iniative to CONTRIBUTE in this forum on a pro bono REGULAR basis and you will expand your fan base to include maybe even me. :wink:

There are MANY OTHER CONTRIBUTORS that make a very fine contribution to this forum and I hope that you will join them in moving forward.

And as far as me doing research to substantiate my claims, one only has to read the content of the forums to see who the real contributors are that step up to the plate time after time, without being asked, begged or cajoled. The emails and PM's that I receive substantiate what I have said but I didn't need those perspectives to voice my opinion.

It is too bad that you have lost respect for me but maybe you will see the error of your ways and correct them. If not so be it. You nor anyone else is under any obligation to do anything different.

The purpose of this post isn't to find fault with you or set anyone else in their place but hopefully to move everyone forward in a more postive manner that might benefit the forum as a whole.

Best Regards,
JoeyA

WOW ok joey I don't mean to speak for others BUT!!!!

I am a forum lowlife because I dared question the great Dr. Dave.. and the most arrogant Patrick Johnson...

guess what????

I played devils advocate... here is my REAL Opinion on transferred side spin it is impossible under most conditions and even under IDEAL conditions it only happens half the time..

guys like Dave and Patrick are telling people they can reliably do things they simply cannot.....

They are advocating the exceptions and not the rules..

and yet proclaim to help lesser players play better pool by filling their heads with 10% shots they will never perform reliably in a game...

..

I freely share everything I know...

and from my experience...

most old school pool players paid years of dues to learn to subconsciously play pool..

ALL great players.. play this way

the mother drills focus on the essential parts of playing properly..

I paid more for my cue .. than I paid for my lesson and everyone on the forum would say that my cue is crap...

and they would still lose the match

6 months of daily mother drills and I went from loud mouth banger... to loud mouth player...

I also notice the old school players never make the finals anymore..

the young coached players with the new fangled strokes have seen to that...
 
6 months of daily mother drills and I went from loud mouth banger... to loud mouth player...

I also notice the old school players never make the finals anymore..

the young coached players with the new fangled strokes have seen to that...

You didn't even win 50% of your league games this past season and now you think you are a player?

Which tournaments did you happen to reach the finals in? I didn't see your name show up at any of the Minnesota state tournaments.
 
I've learned from randyg and Scott and many others from what they've posted on many topics from foot position to aiming techniques to follow through. I have assumed that if I want to learn the in/out of spf and sam I'd need to set up a lesson... just as I would to learn Stan Shuffets methods.

Those are their products to sell and make a living and I see nothing wrong with that.

I also agree with JoeW that instructors will be more organized in the future. Maybe not to the degree (no pun intended) as a psychologist or, in Illinois, as the substance abuse counselors certification program (I certainly have to stay "up" on everything including continuing ed... which gets to be dammed expensive in terms of time and $$$), but people will likely want to know if a prospective pool instructor is certified.

Sailor and Mark Wilson have sure been good for my game... and Scott when he was here back in 02, and Chris Cass, and JoeyA, and unknownpro, and Lil Joe, and and and. Don't know what I'd have done without the internet. Wilted I think.
 
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take the iniative to CONTRIBUTE in this forum on a pro bono REGULAR basis

Best Regards,
JoeyA

I'm not sure what you have and have not been reading, but Scott, Randy and myself regularly participate and offer our opinions, and share knowledge quite freely on this board. Not every pool question can be answered long distance on the internet, so we often limit our answers to make sure we aren't passing along bad information.

For example, there is a thread right now about a young lady having problems hitting vertical centerball. Check it and see who was one of the first to offer a possible solution. I qualified my answer because I can't diagnose a problem that I can't see, but based on the information provided, I gave my best guess response.

Randy followed that up with another suggestion that could help the problem as well. I don't think either of us will be sending out invoices. :wink:

If someone's question is "How can I improve my game?", expect the answer to be "seek a qualified instructor". Probably because that is the best answer to that question.

There are a number of qualified instructors on this board (not just the SPF instructors either) that provide a wealth of information for free on this board. There are also some who offer opinions presented as facts that will probably drive a few potential students nuts trying to get things to happen that just don't work. In other words, there is a lot of chaff mixed in with the wheat. Just because someone writes it on the internet, or even in a book for that matter, doesn't make it fact.

I have the highest regard for Randy as an instructor. But here's a fact. If he tells me something, my first reaction is to go to the pool table and prove it to myself.

I'm sorry you have decided that the SPF instructors don't have anything of value to add to the forum. I think there may be other members who might disagree.

Steve
 
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I'm not sure what you have and have not been reading, but Scott, Randy and myself regularly participate and offer our opinions, and share knowledge quite freely on this board. Not every pool question can be answered long distance on the internet, so we often limit our answers to make sure we aren't passing along bad information.

For example, there is a thread right now about a young lady having problems hitting vertical centerball. Check it and see who was one of the first to offer a possible solution. I qualified my answer because I can't diagnose a problem that I can't see, but based on the information provided, I gave my best guess response.

Randy followed that up with another suggestion that could help the problem as well. I don't think either of us will be sending out invoices. :wink:

If someone's question is "How can I improve my game?", expect the answer to be "seek a qualified instructor". Probably because that is the best answer to that question.

There are a number of qualified instructors on this board (not just the SPF instructors either) that provide a wealth of information for free on this board. There are also some who offer opinions presented as facts that will probably drive a few potential students nuts trying to get things to happen that just don't work. In other words, there is a lot of chaff mixed in with the wheat. Just because someone writes it on the internet, or even in a book for that matter, doesn't make it fact.

I have the highest regard for Randy as an instructor. But here's a fact. If he tells me something, my first reaction is to go to the pool table and prove it to myself.
I'm sorry you have decided that the SPF instructors don't have anything of value to add to the forum. I think there may be other members who might disagree.

Steve


And as students of the game that it our responsibility. We are all still learning. Hell even Efren doesnt know everything there is to know. :thumbup:
 
I'm sorry you have decided that the SPF instructors don't have anything of value to add to the forum. I think there may be other members who might disagree.

Steve


Steve,
You were civil in your response and I will respond in kind.

I think you may have misunderstood my posts about SPF instructors. I think you offer a valuable service to the pool community. I am just of the opinion that you should be offering more of it FREE OF CHARGE, to this forum. To be candid, an increase in pro bono pool instruction (on this forum) will probably only win customers and influence others, positively.

FTR, I don't have time to read every post that runs through the forum although I enjoy most of the ones I read so I will miss many threads. Feel free to label your threads starting with SPF so that forum members may quickly find quality information about pool instruction.

It is not that I believe SPF instructors don't have anything of value to add to the forum, it is that I generally see very little freely offered information about pool instruction on the forum, from that group.

When information is offered it seems that the answers are riddles or half-answers with suggestion that the rest of the answer can be found at one of your clinics or schools. I understand that it is difficult to offer concrete solutions to problems self-diagnosed by Main Forum members over the Internet AND I DO REALIZE THAT YOU GUYS ARE TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING doing this.

It is great that your crew has offered solutions to the young lady looking to improve on hitting the vertical center of the cue ball and while I don't have time to look up the thread, a link would be nice. In the meantime, please keep up the good work (just do more of it if you are so inclined). It is appreciated by me and the rest of the forum members.

For the record, I don't believe that anything you OR ANYONE ELSE will ever write in this forum will ever be as valuable as one-on-one pool lessons and time on the table, but every little bit helps.

Thanks for any contributions you make to the forum.

Best Regards,
JoeyA
 
Steve,
You were civil in your response and I will respond in kind.[...]


Wow I can't believe how unbelievably and uniquely qualified I am to comment in this thread ;-)

--I've know Joey for years, and have spent hours at the pool table with him
--I've known Lou for years and have spent hours at the pool table with him
--I've gone through the BCA instructor course at the San Francisco Billiard Academy
--I've gone through the BCA instructor course at Cue Tech (Randy G.'s school)

My first comment is a question: Why'd you have to bump this thing, Randy?

My second comment is more general. When everybody who is involved in pool just to make a buck or who cares about the sport only as far as their own self interest takes them is gone, when everybody without a burning passion for this game and it's future is gone..., the participants here in this discussion are the people who are left. The major participants in this thread are all "the good guys."

now for a few more specific comments:

On Joey's comment about the SPF crowd maybe not offering as much as they could here:

There's an element of truth to your claim, Joey. But I think you have the motivations wrong.

The three main SPF-crowd contributors are Randy, Scott, and Steve. My assessment is that Steve pops in right away with advice when an instructional question is asked. Scott frequently pops in and offers advice, sometimes excellent advice, but doesn't tend to be involved in the kind of productive discussion during which we collectively advance our knowledge.
Randy generally stays out of the foray. He posts frequently, but generally not more than one line.

I've now spent a lot of time with Randy. I consider him a friend as well as a mentor on instructional issues. I've spent a lot of time with Bob Jewett as well, and I consider him a friend as well as a mentor on instructional issues. I haven't met Scott, but despite an occasional testy exchange in this forum, I have a lot of respect for him as an instructor, and when we meet and work together--and I'm confident we will--I predict I'll proudly call him a friend as well.

I think it is NOT the case that reluctance to offer advice or contribute to open analysis here is about free advertising or protecting turf. I think it's much more subtle and less sinister than that.

I'm a scientist. I've published about 50 research articles, and I've given talks at about a hundred scientific conferences. We are a ferocious group. We challenge each other publicly and privately, often and vehemently. Ideas only survive if they have supports that can't be hacked down. We argue in public, argue in small groups, occasionally all night. In our world, there is no such thing as an AUTHORITY. If someone has a history of positive contributions in a certain area, such that someone might be tempted to use the word authority, all that means is that people will pick that person's voice out in a crowd discussing the subject. But what that person actually says is held to the same scrutiny. This is a very efficient way for a group of committed people to advance knowledge collectively.

It is also very very different from the way most people interact.

And that difference leads to a lot of problems on this forum.

To make a claim in this forum is to open it up to the above process. There’s many people who don’t understand this process. To those people, Lou and Patrick Johnson and others seem like vultures. They’re not. They’re among the most valuable contributors here…

Most of these problems wouldn’t be here if we were interacting face to face. Somehow, when you sit down to Easter dinner, you know instinctively that you argue religion with Aunt Sue but not with Aunt Mary, you can tease Uncle Bob about being bald but not Uncle Ralph. And you interact with these people quite a bit differently. They say people with autism don’t pick up these kinds of clues. I think by going from face-to-face communication to online communication, we’ve lost these clues about interacting, and it’s like we’ve all got some autistic tendencies

On the forum we tend to think one size fits all, and then we get bent out of shape when things don’t work out. Well we’re arguing religion with Aunt Mary and teasing Uncle Ralph about being bald. What do we expect?

Randy is really a great teacher. He understands a lot about how people learn new skills. He is very passionate about what he does, and he contributes a tremendous amount to this sport. We should not expect him to join the foray here, imo. Keep doing what you’re doing, Randy… imo. Hope you walked a few blocks today ;-)

I’ve really learned a lot from Lou, both in person and in these forums. He needs to keep writing that book. He is a smart and insightful guy with a lot of billiard knowledge to share.

Joey is wrong about deep-paying calcuttas, but he is otherwise a really great guy and a tremendous contributor here ;-).

By the way, both BCA instructor program’s I’ve been through were really first rate.

Now move on you buncha dorks.
 
Mike...Thanks for your thoughtful response. I was talking with my wife about this very subject last night, AFTER I let my emotions get the best of me, with what JoeyA posted. In the long run, I do not have 12 hours a day to spend on forums like this (like a lot of regular posters). As such, I probably miss a lot of threads that I might have been able to participate in. When I'm traveling (which is VERY often), I might go 2-3 days without even logging in...and when I do, everything that I was reading previously is now 4-5 pages back, and it's all new. So, if you look at the bigger picture, with the total numbers of threads that are put up, I probably don't participate on a huge percentage of them...that would be physically impossible. However, whenever possible, I do post, and offer what I feel to be valuable advice, always for free. You can tell someone something all day long, on the internet. Whether they "get it" or not, is often subjective. That's why many folks choose to seek me out for private instruction, or come to pool school. If you look at the total amount of time I spend here on AzB (or lack thereof), the numbers of posts offering free advice, are many in number.

Your videos that you have posted on You Tube are excellent. You obviously have the time, knowledge, and ability to do that...sadly I don't. I'm a complete newb when it comes to knowing how to use these techniques effectively...so I'm glad you have picked up the ball! Belying some of my posts, I do not like to argue, which is why I choose to stay out of many threads dealing with things that either don't work as described, or are controversial at best. There are a lot of things that just cannot be effectively conveyed here, that are easily and accurately conveyed in person.

Thanks for the kind words, and I look forward to both an opportunity to meet you, and visit your new room...as well as an opportunity to work together, in the future!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Long post: some helpful suggestions for "participating" in forums

Scott (and others in the "instructor" role who participate in forums):

First, apologies for the long post -- me fleet-fingers got the best of me in this one, but I wanted to keep the natural flow.

Having been an instructor myself for several decades (not for pool, but information technology, martial arts, and other things both in the military as well as civilian life), I'd like to share with you some things I learned over the years, from both sides of the fence (instructor-side, and student/reader/someone-within-earshot-side), alongside people from all walks of life:

1. If you've either never been or haven't been for quite a while on the student/reader/someone-within-earshot side of the fence, it is *very difficult* to tone-down the confident, "authority" stance on topics that you may have some knowledge of. Afterall, "you're a CERTIFIED instructor dammit -- who is this person arguing with you?" Or, even if you know you're correct on a certain topic and the other person is obviously wrong (or the person is otherwise too emotional/passionate to think clearly), it's not easy to soften the "you're wrong" message without coming across as some kind of Catholic Nun, "ruler across the knuckles" type. I know I myself had a very hard time first learning how to become a good instructor without hitting these bumps in the road of having someone tell me that I'm a know-it-all or worse, a condescending pr*ck. Naturally, a few virtual "black eyes," an open mind, and time/experience itself helped mold me into a knowledge-sharing type that is completely unrecognizable from when I first started decades ago.

2. I touched upon it in the previous bullet, but that word -- certification -- is a double-edged sword. Sure, certification helps set a baseline standard for which the knowledge is gained and shared, but it also has the undesirable effect on the person achieving it -- what I call the "ivory tower" effect. There are many books written on this topic, and I won't delve into it here, but suffice to say it takes a VERY STRONG person to resist the temptation that the knowledge he/she was certified on is irrefutable and that anything "less" (or "outside the box") is simply urban legend or just plain wrong. It's not a function of the person with the certification being wrong or mentally manipulated, it's just plain human nature. One is naturally proud of his/her achievements, especially when in person, the knowledge/instruction is well-received and rave reviews shared. But yet, written correspondence / postings to message boards seem to get this same person in hot water. Which leads me into the next point...

3. Remember folks, these forums are the WRITTEN word -- it's not like you're standing face-to-face with someone, where vocal and physical body inflections add a lot to *HOW* your message is received. In fact, take away all those vocal/physical inflections, and what you have left is a "Whoomp! There it is!" take-it-or-leave-it message that, if not crafted correctly, can come across as an icepick-in-the-eye to the reader. It takes a very sage person to think things out before writing them, then reading them over again before pressing the "Submit" button to see how he/she himself would feel if he/she were the recipient of that message. And even then, delaying pressing "Submit" if there are any emotional feelings still present -- wait until later when those emotions subside, when he/she is more lucid in thought. Emotions are poison when it comes to written correspondence that is read by many people from all walks of life! Speaking of the all-walks-of-life topic...

4. Social melting pot. Such is the nature of the AZBilliards forums -- you have every kind of person reading them -- bus drivers, mechanics, plumbers, electricians, I.T./computer technology people, Ph.Ds, unemployed, beauticians, store clerks, Wall Street types, ...on and on and on. It's easy for misunderstandings to occur when one comes from a certain regiment or "walk of life," to relay information to other people from other regiments / "walks of life" if the information is not packaged or couched correctly. Without the benefit of natural ability or of formal training on how to deal with people from all walks of life, suffice to say this skill comes from experience.

What does this all have to do with this SPF thread in particular? Without naming names (another hard lesson learned in my decades of instruction), there are times in certain posts I've seen when, even though it was not intended, one or all of the above points were violated when sharing information or otherwise dispelling bad or controversial information that was posted. Although it came from both sides (i.e. the SPF side and the countering side as well), more often than not, it started or was escalated by the SPF side. And even if the emotions were stirred on the non-SPF countering side, it was a post from the SPF side that, well, maybe came across as "ivory tower"-ish or something to cause the emotions in the first place. JoeyA's post, while caustic in certain places, *did* have valid points in it.

As someone wisely noted, this is not medicine or nuclear science; this is pool. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and considering how flexible and adaptable the human body is, it can adapt to even the worst stroke to learn how to use it to pocket balls. SPF is only one way to try to package certain fundamentals together for a baseline that can be taught. It is certainly not the only way.

In summary, the mind is a powerful adaptable organ; too bad it sometimes gets in its own way when interacting with other minds. But over time, it too learns how to resume stride after stumbling over an obstacle. This here is the point when working in these forums -- there are certain "fundamentals" one should follow to prevent misunderstandings / emotional flares.

Perhaps there should be a course taught to instructors (not just in pool, but other topics as well) where SPF would stand for:

S = Sharing
P = Personable
F = Friendly

(Notice nowhere does "knowledge" or "teaching" come into play -- that is implied by the "Sharing" part -- and sharing is just that -- sharing the knowledge, not enforcing it.)

I genuinely hope this was helpful, and most importantly -- taken constructively!

-Sean

Mike...Thanks for your thoughtful response. I was talking with my wife about this very subject last night, AFTER I let my emotions get the best of me, with what JoeyA posted. In the long run, I do not have 12 hours a day to spend on forums like this (like a lot of regular posters). As such, I probably miss a lot of threads that I might have been able to participate in. When I'm traveling (which is VERY often), I might go 2-3 days without even logging in...and when I do, everything that I was reading previously is now 4-5 pages back, and it's all new. So, if you look at the bigger picture, with the total numbers of threads that are put up, I probably don't participate on a huge percentage of them...that would be physically impossible. However, whenever possible, I do post, and offer what I feel to be valuable advice, always for free. You can tell someone something all day long, on the internet. Whether they "get it" or not, is often subjective. That's why many folks choose to seek me out for private instruction, or come to pool school. If you look at the total amount of time I spend here on AzB (or lack thereof), the numbers of posts offering free advice, are many in number.

Your videos that you have posted on You Tube are excellent. You obviously have the time, knowledge, and ability to do that...sadly I don't. I'm a complete newb when it comes to knowing how to use these techniques effectively...so I'm glad you have picked up the ball! Belying some of my posts, I do not like to argue, which is why I choose to stay out of many threads dealing with things that either don't work as described, or are controversial at best. There are a lot of things that just cannot be effectively conveyed here, that are easily and accurately conveyed in person.

Thanks for the kind words, and I look forward to both an opportunity to meet you, and visit your new room...as well as an opportunity to work together, in the future!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
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What is this SPF you speak of?


It stands for "Set Pause Finish" and it refers to an instructional approach advocated by instructors who have been trained at the Cue Tech pool school in Dallas run by Randy Goettlicher.

Many of the instructors that have come through there call themselves part of the "SPF family of instructors."
 
Wow this is really getting strange.

These instructors here are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Let's just ban all the instructors here. What in the heck do they have to offer anyway. I'll bet if I buy all the Accustat videos and read all the books and a video camera, I'd never need another instructor for the rest of my life. Just because these guys might save me time and money is no reason for them to charge $100's for lessons. After all the information is out there, all I gotta do is find it. On top of that if I'd stop being such a tight wad and start gambling to add some pressure everything will fall in place. And if for some reason we can't ban them, maybe Constitutional reasons, and they must post on here I want to see photos, videos and calculations before I'll accept any comment from these predators. For gods sake, if they know the answers I want and deserve full disclosure!!!!!!!



3. Remember folks, these forums are the WRITTEN word -- it's not like you're standing face-to-face with someone, where vocal and physical body inflections add a lot to *HOW* your message is received. In fact, take away all those vocal/physical inflections, and what you have left is a "Whoomp!
 
Applicability of excerpt to post?

Wow this is really getting strange.

These instructors here are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Let's just ban all the instructors here. What in the heck do they have to offer anyway. I'll bet if I buy all the Accustat videos and read all the books and a video camera, I'd never need another instructor for the rest of my life. Just because these guys might save me time and money is no reason for them to charge $100's for lessons. After all the information is out there, all I gotta do is find it. On top of that if I'd stop being such a tight wad and start gambling to add some pressure everything will fall in place. And if for some reason we can't ban them, maybe Constitutional reasons, and they must post on here I want to see photos, videos and calculations before I'll accept any comment from these predators. For gods sake, if they know the answers I want and deserve full disclosure!!!!!!!



3. Remember folks, these forums are the WRITTEN word -- it's not like you're standing face-to-face with someone, where vocal and physical body inflections add a lot to *HOW* your message is received. In fact, take away all those vocal/physical inflections, and what you have left is a "Whoomp!

3kushn:

I'm a little confused; what does your excerpt of my previous post (bullet item #3) have to do with your post? How does it pertain? My post was not against the instructors sharing information (lord knows I'm a big-time proponent of open information sharing). Rather, my post pertained to how arguments / flame wars start on these threads, and offered humble suggestions on how to avoid them. That was the whole purpose of my post. Did I miss the boat on my post?

-Sean
 
I'm sorry you have decided that the SPF instructors don't have anything of value to add to the forum. I think there may be other members who might disagree.
Not to take sides, but Lou is making a number of points, none of which is that SPF instructors have zero to add. One of his main points relates to the nature of the information SPF instructors provide, i.e., that SPF is the "right" way, the "better" way, the "scientific way" etc. What he's implying is that the marketing of SPF is not necessarily related to the effectiveness of SPF.

He's also made some great points, and although colored against SPF on their face, they apply to ALL systems, methods, and styles.

Lastly, there is a bit of irony if you understand what he's saying: accepting that SPF is the benchmark implicitly forces one to recognize its flaws and shortcomings if you want to EXCEED the benchmark...

-td
 
td...Just out of curiosity, what do you believe to be the 'shortcomings and flaws' with SPF? I've been playing with, and teaching, some sort of SPF process, for more than 30 years. I have yet to find the flaws and shortcomings. Maybe you can enlighten me?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Lastly, there is a bit of irony if you understand what he's saying: accepting that SPF is the benchmark implicitly forces one to recognize its flaws and shortcomings if you want to EXCEED the benchmark...

-td
 
td...Just out of curiosity, what do you believe to be the 'shortcomings and flaws' with SPF? I've been playing with, and teaching, some sort of SPF process, for more than 30 years. I have yet to find the flaws and shortcomings. Maybe you can enlighten me?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott, they don't understand. SPF is them, not us......SPF=randyg
 
Exhibit "A"

Scott, they don't understand. SPF is them, not us......SPF=randyg

Randy:

No offense, but this is Exhibit A of a point that, while I (and certain others) understand what you're trying to say, is very easily taken as sarcastic, inflammatory, and actually *propagates* (instead of extinguishing) an argument or flame war. You're trying to point-out that others seem to be engaging in an "us vs. them" attitude (which you imply you're trying to get out of), yet your post itself only adds fuel to the fire by propagating the "us vs. them" stance.

High road, my friend, high road. Professionalism always prevails.

Meant completely constructively of course,
-Sean
 
This is JMO about teaching this game.

I am NOT a BCA certified instructor.

I have no affiliation with SPF.

A closed mind is a brick wall for knowledge. An open mind is back hole for knowledge. I don't agree with everybody on every topic, but I try to see where there are similarities in what we are teaching. I try to concentrate more on the similarities and the agreements rather than the differences. I made a decision a long time ago to work WITH other instructors, not against them.

Since adopting that philosophy, I have accumulated more knowledge than I could have ever imagined. I feel that adopting this approach, I have done a great service to the people that come to me in hopes of improving their abilities and expanding their knowledge.

I am not original in my approach.

I learned it through the example that was set by Randy Goettlicher.

For everybody that believes that there is a cookie cutter or a rigid approach/style of teaching coming from the SPF instructors camp, then you are guilty of baseless prejudgment prior to investigation. Spend some time with these gentleman and learn what they are teaching - then make an assessment.

Like I said, I am not a BCA instructor or an SPF instructor, but I do know enough to keep my ears and my mind open more than my mouth when it comes to any style/approach to teaching/shooting/standing/aiming/thinking/executing.

I learn from everybody - and I pass that along to other players. I also make about 150 recommendations every year to other instructors. I don't do that for brownie points or to kiss a$$. I do that because a long time ago I was taught that it was the right thing to do.

Learning is a two way street. As teachers of the game we must never forget that the more we teach, the more we learn. The more we learn, the more we have to teach. Just think of what we could do if we all got together and worked towards improving the way this game is taught. That's where we need to focus all of our energy.
 
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