Today's Players Better At Playing 1-Hole?

[Johnnyt]

I know it’s hard to compare players from different decades, but I would have to say that today’s top ten 1-hole players would run over most of the top players from 20 years ago. Today’s players play a much different game. They’re not afraid to shoot a ball that’s further than 3’ from the pocket. I think that this is one of the big reasons 1-hole is being played more by the pros and watched by more fans. Of course the promoting by Accu-Stats and others lately has helped also. I think if they had round robin tournaments in 14.1 and went over the rules for new people watching on the stream it would start to be played more by rotation playing pros. Johnnyt

 

[RiverCity]

Thats pretty much it. One pocket has become a more offensive game than it used to be. Moving is still important, but when you have guys like Scott Frost who can run 8 and out from very rough starting positions like it was a cosmos, the game was bound to change. I would like to think the top one pocket players from yesteryear would still be competitive. Guys like Ronnie Allen, Ed Kelly, Jack Breit... Their moving would still win them games.
Gradys thoughts on it were the only way to beat the aggressive game was to play it, and do it better than the other guy.
Chuck

 

[Johnnyt]

Thats pretty much it. One pocket has become a more offensive game than it used to be. Moving is still important, but when you have guys like Scott Frost who can run 8 and out from very rough starting positions like it was a cosmos, the game was bound to change. I would like to think the top one pocket players from yesteryear would still be competitive. Guys like Ronnie Allen, Ed Kelly, Jack Breit... Their moving would still win them games.
Gradys thoughts on it were the only way to beat the aggressive game was to play it, and do it better than the other guy.
Chuck

Thanks for the feedback, as I'm not a 1-hole player. I just started watching it when all the current top rotation players started playing it in tournaments. That's the reason I said "beat most" of the 20+ years ago players. Efern has been around for about 30 years and he can still beat any player at any given time. I got the idea listening to Danny D and Billy I. They were both in booth and both said Shane would be hard for anyone to beat. Johnnyt

 

[darmoose]

I know it’s hard to compare players from different decades, but I would have to say that today’s top ten 1-hole players would run over most of the top players from 20 years ago. Today’s players play a much different game. They’re not afraid to shoot a ball that’s further than 3’ from the pocket. I think that this is one of the big reasons 1-hole is being played more by the pros and watched by more fans. Of course the promoting by Accu-Stats and others lately has helped also. I think if they had round robin tournaments in 14.1 and went over the rules for new people watching on the stream it would start to be played more by rotation playing pros. Johnnyt

For me, 1P is the most demanding and interesting pool game, and what you say about the level of interest amongst players and spectators is no doubt true. The argument about shooters vs movers is good for the game, and I think the answer depends solely on who is shooting and who is moving. Both strategies can be dominant.

Unfortunately, the trend toward more aggressive play seems to be fueled by the same motive that took the "push out" out of nine ball, TV and the need for speed. The beauty of 1P is in the intracasies of moving highlighted by a flurry of shooting occasionly. Again for me, to deminish the role of moving is simply "dumbing down" the game for those who don't understand.

Weren't those games that went to the wire and involved a back and forth battle the most dramatic and exciting to watch?

Darmoose

 

[bbb]

if you think the older generation couldnt or wouldnt shoot and run out
you cannot be serious.......:yikes:
in the very old days with mud balls and slow cloth if was hard to play "power one pocket"
but once ronney came along all that changed as did the equipment
all the old time greats could shoot too
what the modern generation has in its advantage is you can learn the game quicker because of all the information available
in the old days you had to pay your dues to learn
no accu stat tapes with commentary for example to learn
so it took longer to earn a degree in oenpocketology
:smile:

 

[Cornerman]

I know it’s hard to compare players from different decades, but I would have to say that today’s top ten 1-hole players would run over most of the top players from 20 years ago. Today’s players play a much different game. They’re not afraid to shoot a ball that’s further than 3’ from the pocket. I think that this is one of the big reasons 1-hole is being played more by the pros and watched by more fans. Of course the promoting by Accu-Stats and others lately has helped also. I think if they had round robin tournaments in 14.1 and went over the rules for new people watching on the stream it would start to be played more by rotation playing pros. Johnnyt

My simple opinion based on attending the DCC all these years and watching the evolution is that more top players are playing one-hole. And therefore the old idea of better movers vs better shooters ends up being moot as the best shooters in the world can move. And the best shooters moving is completely integrated with their shooting. That is to say that what are normally great moves might not work against world class shotmakers anymore. And world-class shot makers can expand the definition of "the correct shot" based on their great shotmaking.

So, I don't think it's so much that the game has changed (maybe it has) but rather more of the best players are playing it and leaving behind the concept of "better movers."

I think Jay's or Freddy's take on this is going to be more insightful than most.

Freddie <~~~ not Freddy

 

[jrhendy]

if you think the older generation couldnt or wouldnt shoot and run out
you cannot be serious.......:yikes:
in the very old days with mud balls and slow cloth if was hard to play "power one pocket"
but once ronney came along all that changed as did the equipment
all the old time greats could shoot too
what the modern generation has in its advantage is you can learn the game quicker because of all the information available
in the old days you had to pay your dues to learn
no accu stat tapes with commentary for example to learn
so it took longer to earn a degree in oenpocketology
:smile:

Many of the old time players would not run more than three or four balls with a gun to their head. This is how they hid their game.

When better balls did come along, Ronnie always carried a set with him. I started watching/playing one pocket in the late 50's in Los Angeles when it was not near as poplar as it is now. The equipment was not as good but the pockets were bigger.

The sheer number of players playing one pocket now guarantees there will be better players, and the aggressive style of play is hard for a mover to compete against. The new champions shoot too straight, bank too well and play better position than the old time players IMO.

I am pushing 74 and still working towards my degree.

 

[SJDinPHX]

if you think the older generation couldnt or wouldnt shoot and run out
you cannot be serious.......:yikes:
in the very old days with mud balls and slow cloth if was hard to play "power one pocket"
but once ronney came along all that changed as did the equipment
all the old time greats could shoot too
what the modern generation has in its advantage is you can learn the game quicker because of all the information available
in the old days you had to pay your dues to learn
no accu stat tapes with commentary for example to learn
so it took longer to earn a degree in oenpocketology
:smile:

Very well put bbb...but, allow me to add, I would think, that the average intelligence of ANYONE, (even a pool player )...has been the same for hundreds of years...Given the new 'instant' information age, and ALL that implies, I would like to think that players of 20, 30, even 50 yrs ago, given those same tools, would have taken advantage of them, and progressed at the same pace as the player's of today.

Bottom line is, the speed at which you learn to play One Pocket, for instance, has very little to do with how you rate players of different generations...Mosconi, Lassiter, Ronnie A., Efren, Alex, Frost, SVB etc., ALL would have been great players, regardless of how 'fast' they learned the game...The early ones just never had the equipment, or the accessability of information to learn it, as the newer guys have...To say any generation could have played 'BETTER' than the other, is and always will be, an unknown quantity...AKA, apples and oranges, FOREVER !...Skill at 'ball running', was always there and 'natural talent' will always be a huge factor. JMHO...Who do you think could hit you hardest ?..Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Ali, or Mike Tyson...Answer;..It don't matter, you are STILL going to get knocked out cold..Same exact thing !

PS..I think I basically said the same thing you did...It just took me longer to say it...

 

[alphadog]

bbb & jr great replies.

 

[naji]

I know it’s hard to compare players from different decades, but I would have to say that today’s top ten 1-hole players would run over most of the top players from 20 years ago. Today’s players play a much different game. They’re not afraid to shoot a ball that’s further than 3’ from the pocket. I think that this is one of the big reasons 1-hole is being played more by the pros and watched by more fans. Of course the promoting by Accu-Stats and others lately has helped also. I think if they had round robin tournaments in 14.1 and went over the rules for new people watching on the stream it would start to be played more by rotation playing pros. Johnnyt

Johnnyt, serious one hole match(s) are normally played for hours continuously for money to test not only skill, but endurance, patience, and know ho to keep your winning, and it is not like what we see on streams, a lot of big money games are wedge games, all balls are up table like match between Efren and Cory in make it happen-1st game. Best of 3 matches is only for streams, and at times luck prevails on those short races. This fact is proven by Scott Frost lately, the man who invented power one pocket, you will not always be lucky and make the aggressive low % shots on the long run.

Currently, only one player is an exception, and that is SVB, this guy is unreal, not only skills, but endurance and patience too. I love to see him in long one pocket action with Alex, or Efren, or Shannon

 

[bdorman]

Equipment matters

IMHO a good measure of today's power game is because of the equipment. Diamond tables can be set up with super precision. Worsted cloth is the same everywhere on the table...and so on. Power one-pocket requires precision; even though your shot is precise, it can go awry if the table is off.

As an example was the $20,000 Challenge match between Frost and Pagulayan. I think Alex realized early on that the table wasn't the best, so he played more old-school than power. Scott kept forcing power shots that just wouldn't go on that table. Scott won the few games that he stuck to an old-school style.

If the greats from yesteryear played on today's tables they would have developed a power game too. It was just too risky back in their day.

 

[naji]

IMHO a good measure of today's power game is because of the equipment. Diamond tables can be set up with super precision. Worsted cloth is the same everywhere on the table...and so on. Power one-pocket requires precision; even though your shot is precise, it can go awry if the table is off.

As an example was the $20,000 Challenge match between Frost and Pagulayan. I think Alex realized early on that the table wasn't the best, so he played more old-school than power. Scott kept forcing power shots that just wouldn't go on that table. Scott won the few games that he stuck to an old-school style.

If the greats from yesteryear played on today's tables they would have developed a power game too. It was just too risky back in their day.

Your statement in red above, means one pocket experienced player, and knows percentage play, Scott needs two or three years to be close to Alex's level and know percentage play.

 

[Hungarian]

I agree 100%. First of all, todays pool is played on a sheet of ice with fast and perfectly woven cloth pulled so tightly you can all most see through it to the slate. This equipment requires very little stroke and the balls slide nicely into the pockets.

Second, you must have discipline to play the score by balancing your levels of aggressive play vs cautious play based on the score and based on the spot you are in. Guys like Jeremy who came up through Jersey Red knew this and so they play the game differently.

But this style is at a disadvantage with the easy equipment.

I'd like to see one pocket played on tougher equipment with very tight pockets and slower cloth. If I wanted to watch run out pool I'd watch bar box nine ball. I believe there are too many 8 and outs. If I wanted to play a mindless game of luck I'd play checkers.

if you think the older generation couldn't or wouldn't shoot and run out
you cannot be serious.......:yikes:
in the very old days with mud balls and slow cloth if was hard to play "power one pocket"
but once ronney came along all that changed as did the equipment
all the old time greats could shoot too
what the modern generation has in its advantage is you can learn the game quicker because of all the information available
in the old days you had to pay your dues to learn
no accu stat tapes with commentary for example to learn
so it took longer to earn a degree in oenpocketology
:smile:

 

[TRWpool]

I know it’s hard to compare players from different decades, but I would have to say that today’s top ten 1-hole players would run over most of the top players from 20 years ago. Today’s players play a much different game. They’re not afraid to shoot a ball that’s further than 3’ from the pocket. I think that this is one of the big reasons 1-hole is being played more by the pros and watched by more fans. Of course the promoting by Accu-Stats and others lately has helped also. I think if they had round robin tournaments in 14.1 and went over the rules for new people watching on the stream it would start to be played more by rotation playing pros. Johnnyt

The fact that the equipment is so far superior to that of a few decades ago is certainly one factor why more players are playing One Pocket better than ever before, but players are playing all the games better than they did in the past and for the same reason.

Unlike years ago knowledge and exposure to the game is now readily accessable to everyone. A player even thirty years ago could get his ass kicked for sharing secrets to the game of pool. Now a player can take lessons for a fee or get free professional information on sites like this one or on Onepocket.org. It is no wonder why more players are playing better today.

It is a falacy to think that the players of the past were afraid to shoot long shots. Back then a solid One Pocket player didn't have to shoot the long tough shots and show any real speed. The game was a hustlers dream. So why wake up the sucker?

One Pocket is far more popular today for a variety of reasons but it has nothing to do with the ability to shoot aggressively nor does it have anything to due with the quality of the equipment. In my thinking the primary reason One Pocket has had such an impact on todays top players is due to the rules of 9ball. This Texas Express 9ball has made that game far more volatile. A top 9 ball player in the past could control the game far more with the old "push out" rules. This is a near impossibility for most players today. An old saying: "You can make money playing 9ball but you can make a lot of money playing One Pocket." This is still true because of the illusion of control a strong player can instill on his opponent. Too much speed must be shown in 9ball to provide the same illusions.

The game of One Pocket provides safeguards for the top players who wish to gamble which 9ball can't offer. I for one always knew I would get back to the table if not in this game but certainly in the next. In my prime the assurance that my opponent could not run over me with a string of games without my getting back to the table gave me confidence that I could beat just about any stranger with whom I tangled.

Tom

 

[ToddW]

I agree I would love to see Shannon or Justin Hall play Svb in a race to 15 or 20 just to see if he would hold up under the constant moving. The short race lends itself to a lot more pressure to win a few games quick, and maybe the mover doesn't have time to break the shooter down.jmho

 

[jay helfert]

My simple opinion based on attending the DCC all these years and watching the evolution is that more top players are playing one-hole. And therefore the old idea of better movers vs better shooters ends up being moot as the best shooters in the world can move. And the best shooters moving is completely integrated with their shooting. That is to say that what are normally great moves might not work against world class shotmakers anymore. And world-class shot makers can expand the definition of "the correct shot" based on their great shotmaking.

So, I don't think it's so much that the game has changed (maybe it has) but rather more of the best players are playing it and leaving behind the concept of "better movers."

I think Jay's or Freddy's take on this is going to be more insightful than most.

Freddie <~~~ not Freddy

Thanks Freddie. I knew there was something I liked about you. :smile:
It's posts like this that indicate to me how astute a commentator you are.
The top guys today have so much game, they can execute any shot, and the smallest of openings are all they need to take charge of the game and even run out (or close). I've seen them all shoot their way out of bad situations as well with what looks like a low percentage shot.

That said, the two best One Pocket players I ever saw remain Ronnie Allen and Efren. Ronnie was running ten and out (he usually had to get to ten) 30-45 years ago on the slow cloth. Even today very few players (read that none) have his knowledge or ability to kick multiple rails with so much accuracy. He could turn a dead trap into a run out with one amazing kick. I saw him do it a hundred times. He also was the best ever at making combinations, particularly off angle ones. You know the ones everybody misses!

Ronnie NEVER missed a game ball for the cash either, cutting balls down the rail or needing to make a bank off the end rail. Two railer, no problem either. SWISH!

As for Efren, no one controls the cue ball like him, able to weave in and out of small openings and get position in super tight spaces. And if he can see it, you better believe he will make it. The only player I ever saw who would regularly run out with all the balls down table. He could run eight and out with all the balls inside the second diamond upstream. No one else does that, even today. Plus his imagination and creativity are other worldly. He finds shots that no one else sees and can turn the game around with some remarkable shot from nowhere. Seen him do that many times as well. They are still my picks for the all time greatest in my lifetime.

 

[CreeDo]

Any top pros who DON'T play one pocket? Like people have tried to get them into games and they flat out refuse? It seems like all the serious players at least dabble in it. Shane's the ten ball guy but wow, look at his 1-pocket. John Schmidt's supposed to be a straight pool guy but I hear he plays great 1-hole too. I'm sure johnny and earl play.

I get the impression is used to be a specialty game beloved by only certain pros, and now it's a required credit to get your billiards degree.

 

[prad]

well said

if you think the older generation couldnt or wouldnt shoot and run out
you cannot be serious.......:yikes:
in the very old days with mud balls and slow cloth if was hard to play "power one pocket"
but once ronney came along all that changed as did the equipment
all the old time greats could shoot too
what the modern generation has in its advantage is you can learn the game quicker because of all the information available
in the old days you had to pay your dues to learn
no accu stat tapes with commentary for example to learn
so it took longer to earn a degree in oenpocketology
:smile:

Times are changed. Now we have better equipment (LD shafts, nice cloth, better billiard balls etc..). Pool is now different, the game has changed. So, IMO its not fair to say that players today are better than "old timers" cuz there are so many variables.
That being said, both today's and past pool players are/were great in their own way. They all show tremendous amount of dedication and talent. All of us amateurs can learn a lot from them.

 

[porper-sig]

All these fantastic streams of today make it unfair on the earlier generation. imo

 

[spanky79]

Johnnyt, serious one hole match(s) are normally played for hours continuously for money to test not only skill, but endurance, patience, and know ho to keep your winning, and it is not like what we see on streams, a lot of big money games are wedge games, all balls are up table like match between Efren and Cory in make it happen-1st game. Best of 3 matches is only for streams, and at times luck prevails on those short races. This fact is proven by Scott Frost lately, the man who invented power one pocket, you will not always be lucky and make the aggressive low % shots on the long run.

Currently, only one player is an exception, and that is SVB, this guy is unreal, not only skills, but endurance and patience too. I love to see him in long one pocket action with Alex, or Efren, or Shannon

The race to 11 one hole against Efren during the all around on TAR is going to be sweet.