Turning Stone no longer a ranking event.

nathandumoulin said:
This is the 3rd comment I've received about starting a rumor from industry personnel.

How is this so? All I've done is inquire why I was told something first hand in hopes of finding an answer. I clearly stated in my first post that any mention of the PA made by others is purely speculation.
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Nathan, relax man. I'm not saying that you have done anything wrong, I am pointing out that you heard some info and that is is just something like many others that are heard that makes us ask these questions.

It is not directed at you in any way for starting a rumor, I know you were just asking. However it seems what led from that post was alot of people jumping on the band wagon and condeming the players association when we have no idea if they have said anything about the event.

Seems like we give evryone in this country the benefit of the doubt except pro pool players. I have alot of respect for everything you do Nate and believe that you are a good guy. Sorry if it came across otherwise.

Mark,
 
bfdlad said:
Let me tell you a couple of things I have heard from MANY pros about Turning Stone.

1) For a California play for example the expenses to go to this event make it hard to justify based on the payouts.

2) If it were not a ranking event they would not even go. Alot of the pros only go for the points and alot of the time either break even or lose money by attending.

3) if there are no tourneys that want to post the money, or play by the rules they will just go back to gambling with each other to make money.

These are not nessesarily my personal opinion but those of many pro I have spoken to. Please do not include the people I work with on this as I am not saying that is their stance. The yare the ones to tell their feelings on the situation either for or against along with the other pros.

I think Max posts here, John Schmidt, Oscar, Donnie Mills, Bartram etc. Let them post on here and tell their side to the story. Seems to me that someone heard a rumor that began this thread. I have no idea personally if the Players Association have even asked MZ for anything different. Looks like everyone is getting down on the PA without actually knowing if they have done anything at all or their official stand on all this.

I have no steak in this eaither way but just pointing out a couple of things.
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I think Hatch posts on here too:rolleyes:. Without the Joss Tour he wouldn't have any points to speak of for for the cup.

How many point tournaments are on the West coast?

Make the 5th player on the team a woman. Johnnyt
 
bfdlad said:
Nathan, relax man.
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No worries Mark. I know your easy going manner in person, and know that you'd never have meant anything hostile. :p

I also didn't mean to come across as angry. I'm just dumb founded at a few of the messages I'm getting implying that I've done something wrong. Feeling a little defensive at the moment. :o
 
Wasn't this event started out as a season finale for the tour?
Play in 3 events and get reduced entry fee to T.S. for supporting the tour?

Far as i remember, while some pros supported the tour (think local), the MAJORITY of the pros, just signed up for the T.S. event, payed the bigger entry fee to try and scalp the tournament. (this is a pool players nature)
Has it always been a points event, or did that only start after the pros showed up every time?

I don't think it's going to matter one bit if the pros don't show up.
More money for everyone else. The pros can go wash dishes for all i care.
If there is one thing that is GREAT about the JOSS tour that the rest of the pool world can take a lesson from, is that the JOSS plays no favorites.
The same rule apply to EVERYONE, whether you are a name or not.
There is no ass kissing and bowing down and worshiping the name players at the expense of non names, and that's the way it should ALWAYS BE!

This demanding of the escrow for a tour that always pays is just ridiculous.
I don't see what the pros are all bend out of shape about.

IT'S NOT LIKE THE PROS ARE GOING TO LEAVE THE CASINOS WITH THE MONEY IN THEIR POCKETS ANYWAY!!!!
What difference does money in escrow make.

If ANYTHING, if Mike Zuglan should astonish the world by not being able to make payment and has to pay them at a later date, HE DID THEM ALL A FAVOR!!!!

<---wonders how many pros (those business savvy geniuses that they are) had to borrow money at the end of the week to pay for the room because they went bust.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
 
Johnnyt said:
I think Hatch posts on here too:rolleyes:. Without the Joss Tour he wouldn't have any points to speak of for for the cup.

How many point tournaments are on the West coast?

Make the 5th player on the team a woman. Johnnyt
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Not a bad idea Johnny. Have each team include one woman player. Interesting!
 
I have never been to TS, and here's why.

For the last 6-7 years I have always had a conflicting schedule (APA Nationals), yet still tried my hardest to make the TS events - without risking my job.

Well this year, since I'm doing my own thing, my schedule was open for it (YES!). Then I started numbers crunching...uh-oh!

For a professional player, the numbers just don't work - unless you live within driving distance and stay offsite. Flights are super high (Syracuse), hotel is high (TS), and the prize money is just way to low... For about the same in expenses, I can go to the US Open 9-Ball and potentially win $40k vs. $8k (of course assuming I get paid).

Obviously some go anyway, and I wanted to be one of them. The fact of it being point earning, had me swaying the most! If times were better, I probably would have gone (even looking at the potential ROI).

I am told this is one of the nicest and well run events out there - and I know Mike Zuglan to be a good guy. This just is not time for a "vacation" type of event - gotta have better ROI potential (more money). This event is the nuts for locals - IMO.
 
CrownCityCorey said:
...This just is not time for a "vacation" type of event - gotta have better ROI potential (more money)....
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As far as I'm concerned today, all pool tournaments are "vacation" type events. If we're lucky enough to come home winner, that's a bonus. Otherwise, it's totally a social gathering for me. I kind of miss it. :grin-square:
 
CrownCityCorey said:
For the last 6-7 years I have always had a conflicting schedule (APA Nationals), yet still tried my hardest to make the TS events - without risking my job.

Well this year, since I'm doing my own thing, my schedule was open for it (YES!). Then I started numbers crunching...uh-oh!

For a professional player, the numbers just don't work - unless you live within driving distance and stay offsite. Flights are super high (Syracuse), hotel is high (TS), and the prize money is just way to low... For about the same in expenses, I can go to the US Open 9-Ball and potentially win $40k vs. $8k (of course assuming I get paid).

Obviously some go anyway, and I wanted to be one of them. The fact of it being point earning, had me swaying the most! If times were better, I probably would have gone (even looking at the potential ROI).

I am told this is one of the nicest and well run events out there - and I know Mike Zuglan to be a good guy. This just is not time for a "vacation" type of event - gotta have better ROI potential (more money). This event is the nuts for locals - IMO.
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I think we need to look between the lines here... "Job" "Now Doing my own thing", Pool isn't a job for you its an expense. I am guessing many there, after adding up cost and lost wages, would need a top 6 or higher.

I look at the other results of tours (dime a dozen) with big names winning a whopping $500 for first. How is that good? Name the events from the tours on the front page of AZ that offer $8000 first. Use a large font with bold, you might fill a line.

The other tours should try holding an event just before or after and take advantage of players being in town. This would help the ROI.

For pro's shedding light on this, I don't see them posting here too often other than asking for backing, fighting, selling or votes. We do have exceptions but not many. Someone will probably talk to a pro and post...
 
CrownCityCorey said:
This event is the nuts for locals - IMO.
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This is exactly my point.
Joss is a REGIONAL tour. It was a tournament designed for the regional players.
Sure it's nice that the pros showed up, but the only reason they did in the first place was cause they got greedy.
.oO(Hmmmmmmm, a regional championship with some decent money and i am stealing...WHY NOT!)
And of course, this plan fails when every other pro shows up thinking the same thing and then the geniuses come up with the idea....oO(well, if i am not stealing, it should at LEAST be seeded so that i can break even)

CCC you are the smart one. You did the math, and it didn't pan out.
So you stayed home.

The others, they show up and take their shot, and when things don't work out their way, they cry like a bunch of sissies.
 
Jason Robichaud said:
...Someone will probably talk to a pro and post...
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It is too expensive to play pool full time on the tournament trail. You must win, place, or show at least 50 percent of the time to break even, and that's only if you can attend three or more tournaments each month.

There is only a handful of pro players today in the United States who can afford to play full time. Most of them MUST have a job outside of pool to make ends meet.

If and when I go to a pool tournament today, it will be for recreation. There's no profit to look forward to after expenses. If my partner plays well and gets in the money, then we are happy to cover expenses. If we can bring home a little jingle in our pockets, it's like hitting the lottery.

Unless a player has somebody else paying their bills, e.g., fat stakehorse, industry sponsor, or a loved one behind the scenes keeping the family responsibilities intact, pool is a very difficult profession. Living out of a suitcase sucks.

Give me a home where the buffalo roam, and I'd be a happy camper. Actually, I think I'd rather live in Beautiful Dixie. :)

If I was wealthy, I wouldn't mind traveling the pool tournament trail for fun, but you'll go broke within a few years if you do it full time without backing. When you look at the money amounts that players win on AzBilliards Main Page, well, cut that in half or maybe even to one-third of that amount. This is the real dollar figure they pocket. Everything else goes to expenses, backers, and taxes. Welcome to professional pool.

This is why Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, Mike Zuglan, Tommy Kennedy, Steve Mitzerak, Lou Butera, and other American pro players got out of competing on a permanent basis and found their niche in pool to make money. Tournament competition is a one-way ticket to bankruptcy of your pocketbook. :o

I do love pool tournaments, seeing the whole gang, hanging out on the rail, laughing at funny pool stories, sweating good pool matches, traveling to cool destinations, but I look at them as a vacation and nothing more. :wink:
 
SUPERSTAR said:
This is exactly my point.
Joss is a REGIONAL tour. It was a tournament designed for the regional players...
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That is why they call it the Joss NORTHEAST 9-Ball Tour. :wink:

SUPERSTAR, my daughter graduated last week. She's now going for her master's. I'm so proud of her. I cried when they called her name as she walked across the stage. :o

Hope you're doing well. SUPERSTAR used to travel the professional pool circuit. He knows, and he gets it. :wink:
 
JAM said:
It is too expensive to play pool full time on the tournament trail. You must win, place, or show at least 50 percent of the time to break even, and that's only if you can attend three or more tournaments each month.

There is only a handful of pro players today in the United States who can afford to play full time. Most of them MUST have a job outside of pool to make ends meet.

If and when I go to a pool tournament today, it will be for recreation. There's no profit to look forward to after expenses. If my partner plays well and gets in the money, then we are happy to cover expenses. If we can bring home a little jingle in our pockets, it's like hitting the lottery.

Unless a player has somebody else paying their bills, e.g., fat stakehorse, industry sponsor, or a loved one behind the scenes keeping the family responsibilities intact, pool is a very difficult profession. Living out of a suitcase sucks.

Give me a home where the buffalo roam, and I'd be a happy camper. Actually, I think I'd rather live in Beautiful Dixie. :)

If I was wealthy, I wouldn't mind traveling the pool tournament trail for fun, but you'll go broke within a few years if you do it full time without backing. When you look at the money amounts that players win on AzBilliards Main Page, well, cut that in half or maybe even to one-third of that amount. This is the real dollar figure they pocket. Everything else goes to expenses, backers, and taxes. Welcome to professional pool.

This is why Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, Mike Zuglan, Tommy Kennedy, Steve Mitzerak, Lou Butera, and other American pro players got out of competing on a permanent basis and found their niche in pool to make money. Tournament competition is a one-way ticket to bankruptcy of your pocketbook. :o

I do love pool tournaments, seeing the whole gang, hanging out on the rail, laughing at funny pool stories, sweating good pool matches, traveling to cool destinations, but I look at them as a vacation and nothing more. :wink:
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I agree with you Jam, but the math has been there for many, many years. Anyone with 4th grade math skills can figure it out. There hasn't been a profit after expenses for anyone w/o a full sponsor or in the top 5 in the US for over 20 years. More like the top 3 now. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
I agree with you Jam, but the math has been there for many, many years. Anyone with 4th grade math skills can figure it out. There hasn't been a profit after expenses for anyone w/o a full sponsor or in the top 5 in the US for over 20 years. More like the top 3 now. Johnnyt
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That's exactly right. :)

This is why I think it is a shame that the so-called men's new pool "organization" request adjustments be made to Mike Zuglan's existing Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour rules to accommodate two or three players today.

The $25,000-added Joss/Turning Stone tournament is a pool tournament that is a gift to pool enthusiests and players alike. Unlike other pool events, this is FREE -- I repeat FREE -- admission to spectators.

Pool payouts have always paled in comparison to other sports. Pool is what it is, and it doesn't look like it will be changing anytime soon.

I accept pool for what it is today, at least for me, and that is a recreational game. The regional tours and leagues is where pool shines brightest in 2010.

I want to enjoy pool, and when I go to Turning Stone Casino and check out the Joss event, I enjoy pool. I don't look at pool competitions as a way to earning a living, and anybody who does is wearing blinders, especially in 2010.

There is no better high in the world than to run a rack of balls effortlessly. It is a natural high, one which anybody on the face of the earth can attain if they just practice, practice, practice. The only difference between the Average Joe and Earl Strickland is the Average Joe may have hit 10,000 balls in his lifetime, and Earl Strickland has hit 10 million balls in his lifetime and is still hitting 'em. If the Average Joe hit the same 10 million balls that Earl did, the Average Joe would be in the headlines of Billiards Digest, InsidePOOL, AzBilliards, and Pool and Billiards magazine. :wink:

Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be pool players, unless you live in the Philippines. :grin-square:
 
"Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be pool players, unless you live in the Philippines. "
__________________

I like that...and so true. Johnnyt
 
3) if there are no tourneys that want to post the money, or play by the rules they will just go back to gambling with each other to make money.
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Oh really?
 
JAM said:
The only difference between the Average Joe and Earl Strickland is the Average Joe may have hit 10,000 balls in his lifetime, and Earl Strickland has hit 10 million balls in his lifetime and is still hitting 'em. If the Average Joe hit the same 10 million balls that Earl did, the Average Joe would be in the headlines of Billiards Digest, InsidePOOL, AzBilliards, and Pool and Billiards magazine. :wink:
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So the only thing that makes Efren the best player to ever wield a cue is the fact that he's hit more balls than everyone else? What about Keith? Also the product of only practice?

If that's the case, than try explaining the phenomenon that is Alex Pagulayan. He plays a few times a year now, and yet still shows up to the occasional event and destroys everyone with ease.

Come on Jam....:eek:

I agree with most of what you say, but this statement is completely disrespectful to the professional players. It's actually part of why our game struggles. The league players refuse to respect the pros simply because they have that bullshit "I could be just as good if I tried harder" mentality.

Again, no disrespect intended. :)
 
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