Two Shot Push Out - McCready vs St Louis Louie Roberts

[canwin]

East Coast...Archer, Strickland, Gulyassy, tom kennedy, joyner, daulton, stevie moore, larry nevel, pete horne, bud osbourne, dave bollman, tony watson....not to shabby a crew )

Yea, but that crew hasn't played the real 2 shot rules that you could shoot behind your opponent and make it 1 apeice. Then there's the switch they(east coasters) did with changing the blue dot to the red dot.
Lets just say Johnny Archer in his prime turned me down(1000.00 a game)..
I'm with ya Keith all the frickin way ..
Canwin

 

[sjm]

I grew up on this type of nine ball and was glad when it disappeared. It was more of a shot maker's game back then, and to some, shooting pool well and shotmaking are one fo the same. For such people, I can understand why they miss it.

However, Texas Express brought many new skills into the game. More defense, more kicking, more jump shots, more two-way and other multi-purpose shots allows Texas Express players to show far more creativity than their counterparts of thirty years ago. Texas express has much greater variety, requires more finesse, more billiard knowledge and better defense than two shot shootout. And, for all those who lament that Texas Express has a luck element, let's not overlook that Texas Express penalizes a player far more than two shot shootout when they make a position play error. Being allowed to push out when you miss shape is, to me, very "lucky" indeed.

A return to two shot shootout would be very disappointing for this fan. May that version of nine ball rest in peace.

 

[JAM]

I'm now beginning to understand why some may believe the East Coast players couldn't beat the West Coast players, so they developed a new set of rules that would allow them to win. I personally believe the talent came from those who had a larger arsenal of shots. There's where the creativity is.

There was plenty of kicking and safety play in two-shot/push-out, and those who understood the game better were able to develop strategies to win, as opposed to slopping it in.

The players who were shotmakers had to learn how to compete against luck. I am reminded of Jean Balukas who said, "Beat me with talent, not with luck." or some words to that effect. Maybe Jean didn't like the rule changes, either. :grin:

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

Texas express is given credit for 1 foul...but it was devised by the Jansco brothers and Weenie Beenie around 69-71. And it was only to speed up the game.The origional 1 foul rules were 1. spot all balls 2. scratch on the break was BIH behind the line 3. scratch on the 9 was BIH behind the line.
From 69-79, I never saw anyone at Beenie's gamble at 1 foul...it was all pushout. I have an old BCA rule book ( 82 I think ) that has tournment rules ( 1 foul ) and pushout 9 ball rules. After retiring in 80, I came back to pool in late 88 to find 9 ball was 1 foul and most young players had never played pushout.
If you want to duck and hide, play 1 hole...you can duck all day...I hope you do it against me...lol.
Pushout forever....cough..cough......now where's my walker?

 

[Ken_4fun]

Buddy Hall says the same thing. He thinks Texas Express rules killed the game.

I was playing him and got out of line for my runout. I shot a killer safety and he said you are going to get rewarded for making a mistake. I had never looked at it like that, but that is what Keith and Buddy are saying.

Ken

 

[JB Cases]

This is how I remembered it. That's why spot shots were such an integral skill to have back then.

---

BTW, this could be completely wrong but I seem to remember reading that TE rules were instituted by the Jansco brothers at Johnson City and that's where it got its real foothold. I wasn't around the game at that time so I don't personally remember the history of how TE took over the universe like it did, but I seem to recall having seen this somewhere.

I don't know when they instituted the rules but it was probably long after the Johnston City era. My teenage years were in the 80s and I was playing 2 foul nine ball up until at least 1988 in Oklahoma and Florida. In fact I don't remember ever playing one foul until I got to Germany in 1989 and they played nine ball with no push out after the break one foul ball in hand. You just had to take it where it landed. Later they adopted the WPA rules which were essentially the Texas Express rules allowing for a push after the break.

I am sure you can find a history of Texas Express rules on AZB somewhere. Robin Adair and Randy Goetlicher (yes the same Randy G who gets knocked on here for his support for aiming systems) are two of the three people who founded the Texas Express group. Coincindentally they also pretty much founded the regional/national tour structure that most regional tours follow to this day.

I am sure that Bob Jewett also has something to add to this as he has been instrumental on the BCA rules committee for a long time if I remember correctly. That probably spilled over to the WPA rulesmaking as well.

 

[JB Cases]

I'm now beginning to understand why some may believe the East Coast players couldn't beat the West Coast players, so they developed a new set of rules that would allow them to win. I personally believe the talent came from those who had a larger arsenal of shots. There's where the creativity is.

There was plenty of kicking and safety play in two-shot/push-out, and those who understood the game better were able to develop strategies to win, as opposed to slopping it in.

The players who were shotmakers had to learn how to compete against luck. I am reminded of Jean Balukas who said, "Beat me with talent, not with luck." or some words to that effect. Maybe Jean didn't like the rule changes, either. :grin:

I very much doubt that anyone developed a set of rules for nine ball designed to allow certain players to win. Let's not forget that Luther Lassiter was from North Carolina, Don Willis from Ohio, Willie Mosconi from Philly, and many many many more champions up and down the Eastern seaboard and into the MidWest.

Anyone who is a champion pool player surely knows that adapting to the rules and strategies that come with them is fairly easy for top players.

Buddy Hall can say that TE ruined 9 ball but he sure racked up plenty of tournament victories playing nine ball that way.

 

[JAM]

I very much doubt that anyone developed a set of rules for nine ball designed to allow certain players to win. Let's not forget that Luther Lassiter was from North Carolina, Don Willis from Ohio, Willie Mosconi from Philly, and many many many more champions up and down the Eastern seaboard and into the MidWest.

Anyone who is a champion pool player surely knows that adapting to the rules and strategies that come with them is fairly easy for top players.

Buddy Hall can say that TE ruined 9 ball but he sure racked up plenty of tournament victories playing nine ball that way.

I was trying to be humorous, John, in my post, but I guess I failed.

In case you forgot, I *am* from the East Coast.

People in the pool world do sometimes think regional, stating their players are the best in the land, mainly because they have had the opportunity to see them play pool more often. All others, especially before the age of technology, are only known by hearsay. Their knowledge, IOW, is limited.

This is why these "who's the best" threads always give me a chuckle. How can you say so-and-so is better than this-and-that when you have never seen this-and-that play before?

As far as Keith stating the East Coast players changed the rules because they couldn't beat the West Coast players, well, you'll just have to hear his reasoning why. It's documented at this time, and I think I'm just going to save it for another time.

I think sometimes readers on a forum can misinterpret things and may take them too seriously. I know I've been guilty of that in the past, but when you're faced with "circling the drain," things that used to be important to you just don't matter too much anymore. Life's too short to sweat the small stuff, right? :smile:

 

[canwin]

If you think about what you mean by "new skills" to the game, you could break it all down into 2 things in my minds eye. Losing control of the q ball and the object ball, and playing safe(chipping instead of shooting).
Defense can be defined as an attempting to play it safe by hiding from the shot in order to make the opponent kick. When you kick or jump for that matter, the q ball is hidden from the object ball which presents a situation of almost guaranteeing a loss of control of the q and object ball. The trickle down effect of this is you really don't have to commit to any shot. .Do you? You can play hide and seek anytime you desire. .
Two way and multi purpose shots can be defined as one in the same. You don't have to make these shots because they are basically another attempt to play it safe. See above. .
If this is what you call more variety,finesse,creativity and knowledge.. then I'd define those attributes as what they really are. See above . .
We didn't try to get ball in hand by hiding so we could pick the q ball up and put it where ever we wanted.
Canwin

 

[sjm]

If you think about what you mean by "new skills" to the game, you could break it all down into 2 things in my minds eye. Losing control of the q ball and the object ball, and playing safe(chipping instead of shooting).
Defense can be defined as an attempting to play it safe by hiding from the shot in order to make the opponent kick. When you kick or jump for that matter, the q ball is hidden from the object ball which presents a situation of almost guaranteeing a loss of control of the q and object ball. The trickle down effect of this is you really don't have to commit to any shot. .Do you? You can play hide and seek anytime you desire. .
Two way and multi purpose shots can be defined as one in the same. You don't have to make these shots because they are basically another attempt to play it safe. See above. .
If this is what you call more variety,finesse,creativity and knowledge.. then I'd define those attributes as what they really are. See above . .
We didn't try to get ball in hand by hiding so we could pick the q ball up and put it where ever we wanted.
Canwin

Agreed to a point, except the defensive elements, the multirail, and the multipurpose shots forced players to obtain more theoretical knowledge and a little more speed control than their counterparts of a generation ago. Dan DiLiberto often notes that there are countless more good players today than in his prime, and Buddy Hall has said the same. I believe part of the reason is the switch to Texas Express, which forced players to get a more comprehensive grasp of the theory pertaining to cuesports than the players of yesteryear and also forced them to become highly proficient at masses and jump shots.

I would also argue that Texas Express reuslted in a much higher number of good pattern players in nine ball. Today, if you blow the position and hook yourself, the penalty is severe, and you usually become a big underdog to win the rack. It's a much more severe penality than back in the day when you could push out and remain on relatively even footing in your quest to win the rack. Because getting the patterns wrong today is so costly, players spend more time and effort developing their patterns than those of yesteryear, just another reason that there are so mnay good players today relative to way back when.

In fact, when the legends tournament was put out in the early 1980's, you could see just how uncomfortable guys like Lassiter and Crane, still solid players, were when they had to kick in nine ball. It wasn't just their age (let's not forget that Crane could still run 150 and out even then). I know some elderly men today that kick extremely well.

In truth, in today's men's pro pool, a snooker very rarely leads to ball it hand, instead making it difficult for opponents not to leave you at least something, and when pros play safe, they do it to improve, not to perfect their position. Hence, I reject the suggestion that pros play safeties for the purpose of obtaining ball in hand,(though they understand it as a possible, but usually unlikely, upside). Jast as in the distant past, most ball in hand situations are the result of the cue ball finding a pocket.

One may prefer whatever brand of nine ball they choose to play or watch, but because it forced players to develop skills that the players of yesteryear were less dependent on, the game has more variety and the players more skillful.

 

[JAM]

If you think about what you mean by "new skills" to the game, you could break it all down into 2 things in my minds eye. Losing control of the q ball and the object ball, and playing safe(chipping instead of shooting).
Defense can be defined as an attempting to play it safe by hiding from the shot in order to make the opponent kick. When you kick or jump for that matter, the q ball is hidden from the object ball which presents a situation of almost guaranteeing a loss of control of the q and object ball. The trickle down effect of this is you really don't have to commit to any shot. .Do you? You can play hide and seek anytime you desire. .
Two way and multi purpose shots can be defined as one in the same. You don't have to make these shots because they are basically another attempt to play it safe. See above. .
If this is what you call more variety,finesse,creativity and knowledge.. then I'd define those attributes as what they really are. See above . .
We didn't try to get ball in hand by hiding so we could pick the q ball up and put it where ever we wanted.
Canwin

Glad to see someone with some wisdom share a few nuggets.

There will always be a variety of opinions on this topic. It doesn't mean any one of them are right or wrong, but I must say yours hit the nail on the head for me!

 

[sjm]

I don't know when they instituted the rules but it was probably long after the Johnston City era. My teenage years were in the 80s and I was playing 2 foul nine ball up until at least 1988 in Oklahoma and Florida. In fact I don't remember ever playing one foul until I got to Germany in 1989 and they played nine ball with no push out after the break one foul ball in hand.

To my best recollection, in the poolrooms of NY, the transition from two shot shootout to Texas Express took place around 1983.

 

[sjm]

Buddy Hall says the same thing. He thinks Texas Express rules killed the game.

I was playing him and got out of line for my runout. I shot a killer safety and he said you are going to get rewarded for making a mistake. I had never looked at it like that, but that is what Keith and Buddy are saying.

Ken

Yes, and when you played him two shot shootout, you hooked yourself, pushed out and won the rack, and Buddy said "you just won the rack by luck, for in Texas Express, your position error would almost certainly have resulted in a loss."

OK, maybe I imagined that, but you get the point.

 

[richiebalto]

WHO EVER SAYs safties were not a big part of 2 foul,well i say different,i was taught,if i got into any trouble,push out to play a safe off of and hope the other player take the shot and misses,but i do understand thatr players like KEITH could push out and then make the great shot,but i was taught from a great player to always push out to play a safe next,i heard TOBY SWEET always push out looking to play safe next,so even playing 2 fouls,there was a lot of safties going on.

 

[Island Drive]

The great beauty of two shot was of course how it improved ones ability to take the free shot and learn to over cut balls, but what 2 shot really taught me and in doing so improved my play, was breaking up clusters with no fear. There's nothing quite like moving whitey into a group of balls and opening up the mess. One also learns allot by watching what happens and doesn't happen, it improves ones speed control and feel of going thru balls, much like 14.1 .

 

[Pushout]

WHO EVER SAYs safties were not a big part of 2 foul,well i say different,i was taught,if i got into any trouble,push out to play a safe off of and hope the other player take the shot and misses,but i do understand thatr players like KEITH could push out and then make the great shot,but i was taught from a great player to always push out to play a safe next,i heard TOBY SWEET always push out looking to play safe next,so even playing 2 fouls,there was a lot of safties going on.

There were indeed! I asked a world class player how he played push out 9 ball and he responded that he always pushed to a safety shot, with the intent of his opponent passing or shooting at the shot and missing.

 

[canwin]

Agreed to a point, except the defensive elements, the multirail, and the multipurpose shots forced players to obtain more theoretical knowledge and a little more speed control than their counterparts of a generation ago. Dan DiLiberto often notes that there are countless more good players today than in his prime, and Buddy Hall has said the same. I believe part of the reason is the switch to Texas Express, which forced players to get a more comprehensive grasp of the theory pertaining to cuesports than the players of yesteryear and also forced them to become highly proficient at masses and jump shots.

I would also argue that Texas Express reuslted in a much higher number of good pattern players in nine ball. Today, if you blow the position and hook yourself, the penalty is severe, and you usually become a big underdog to win the rack. It's a much more severe penality than back in the day when you could push out and remain on relatively even footing in your quest to win the rack. Because getting the patterns wrong today is so costly, players spend more time and effort developing their patterns than those of yesteryear, just another reason that there are so mnay good players today relative to way back when.

In fact, when the legends tournament was put out in the early 1980's, you could see just how uncomfortable guys like Lassiter and Crane, still solid players, were when they had to kick in nine ball. It wasn't just their age (let's not forget that Crane could still run 150 and out even then). I know some elderly men today that kick extremely well.

In truth, in today's men's pro pool, a snooker very rarely leads to ball it hand, instead making it difficult for opponents not to leave you at least something, and when pros play safe, they do it to improve, not to perfect their position. Hence, I reject the suggestion that pros play safeties for the purpose of obtaining ball in hand,(though they understand it as a possible, but usually unlikely, upside). Jast as in the distant past, most ball in hand situations are the result of the cue ball finding a pocket.

One may prefer whatever brand of nine ball they choose to play or watch, but because it forced players to develop skills that the players of yesteryear were less dependent on, the game has more variety and the players more skillful.

I'll start from your last paragraph and work upwards. . first I want to say the skill of hiding the Q from the object ball at whim is a penalty the opponent has to endure when he/she hasn't done anything to deserve it and has psychological ramifications which alot of players employ to establish an advantage. Notice when I say at whim.. Whereas, shot making was the way to establish the advantage. It has a more macho, mano a mano(one on one) see who can come with more shots/ shape and has way more senarios then forcing your opponent to lose control of the Q. Let's not talk about pros OK, lets talk about the many others learning the game. Shotmaking and shape is the first thing I desired and I'm pretty confident many others feel the same.
It's ok to scratch but having it be so severe is .. . Young players of today play good no doubt, but their confidence is rooted to many ball in hand posessions and the psychological confidence it brings. There would be no more freebees. . the players of yesteryear were dependant on making balls and not playing safe so I would argue that the game hasn't more variety and players aren't more skillful compared with players of yesteryear. I can't stand to watch 1BIH just as I couldn't stand watching 1BIH in one pocket.
When you talk about (the pros) I just think about the cons. . .(humor)
I don't get the whole "in truth" paragraph. I don't grasp what you mean by "they do it to improve not to perfect their position as well as the "Hence" part. . They do it to get BIH, 3 foul(see BIH), and at a whim to keep it simple.
TE rewards a player who misses a ball/shape and leaves a player snookered/jail. This unintentional leave severely penalizes the upcoming player and like you say, making the player whos shot it is a big underdog to win the game thru no fault of their own. (this is an abberation of the game bigtime). Rollout provided a way to continue the game on even footing as you say. .
As far as patterns go, you don't even have to try and finish one..you can just hide the Q from the object ball. Do it enough and you can break clusters, set yourself up for a combo,get BIH, 3 foul etc. all by hiding/not following thru with the pattern. IMO That's how younger players handle patterns today. .
In your first paragraph when you mention all the defensive elements,multipurpose/multi rail shots . IMO all you are saying is it added the element of first looking for the best safety, to think more of playing safe as all these examples are all safety related.
Canwin

 

[sjm]

Let me first clarify that I'm talking about the game at the pro level. Also, I'm not theorizing or speculating here, for I both played and attended tournments in the 1970's and 1980's in which these rules were in effect. I don't need to be told about the way it was. OK, on to my post.

As far as patterns go, you don't even have to try and finish one..you can just hide the Q from the object ball. Do it enough and you can break clusters, set yourself up for a combo,get BIH, 3 foul etc. all by hiding/not following thru with the pattern. IMO That's how younger players handle patterns today. .

Although Buddy Hall was as good a pattern player as anyone that plays the game today, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone contend that the players of yesteryear played the patterns better than those of today. The percentage of racks in which there is a break and run is much higher today than back then. Your suggestion that, at pro level, the game is a war of attrition is not accurate.

Whether a player who hooked himself played into a shot or a safe is irrelevant, for the bottom line is that they retained almost a 50% chance to win the rack. Actually, Lassiter, and other great shotmakers, were every bit as inclined to push out into a very difficult shot (that they knew they'd have a better chance at than their opponents) than push out into a kick or safety. And, I quickly admit, for some, this is what made this verison of the game exciting. If shotmaking is what makes the game exciting for you, it's certainly a reasonable point of view. For me, however, pool is so much more than shotmaking.

In your first paragraph when you mention all the defensive elements,multipurpose/multi rail shots . IMO all you are saying is it added the element of first looking for the best safety, to think more of playing safe as all these examples are all safety related.

Well, once again we disagree. I think a two-way shot is offense oriented, with a defensive element aded on to manage one's risk. For this reason, these shots represent the highest pinnacle to which shot design has ever reached in nine ball. The one pocket players and bank pool players that I've met and/or post here have helped me to truly appreciate the beauty of playing defense and offense simultaneously.

Anyone, I've enjoyed this debate and I've learned from it.

 

[paksat]

I grew up on this type of nine ball and was glad when it disappeared. It was more of a shot maker's game back then, and to some, shooting pool well and shotmaking are one fo the same. For such people, I can understand why they miss it.

However, Texas Express brought many new skills into the game. More defense, more kicking, more jump shots, more two-way and other multi-purpose shots allows Texas Express players to show far more creativity than their counterparts of thirty years ago. Texas express has much greater variety, requires more finesse, more billiard knowledge and better defense than two shot shootout. And, for all those who lament that Texas Express has a luck element, let's not overlook that Texas Express penalizes a player far more than two shot shootout when they make a position play error. Being allowed to push out when you miss shape is, to me, very "lucky" indeed.

A return to two shot shootout would be very disappointing for this fan. May that version of nine ball rest in peace.

Amen brother

 

[JB Cases]

One thing that is missing from this debate on push out is that after the push the incoming player could take the shot and play safe. This was often a strategy as well and possibly the real reason the game needed to be "speeded" up for tournament/television play.

There was a lot of art to the push but the incoming player was faced with three choices.

1. Take the shot to the pocket.
2. Play a safety
3. Give the shot back.

Now, as to shot making, there is now a lot of shotmaking in the game, probably MORE than when two-foul was in existence.

Why?

Because a lot of the time the best shot is to go for the shot rather than to attempt a difficult safety. By now all the top players know the moves just like one pocket so simply putting distance or leaving easy kicks isn't a guarantee that they will get another shot. Plus with the jump cue that cuts down the effectiveness of the safeties and requires players to try to lock down the cueball on safeties.

Thus players faced with the prospect of playing a difficult safety will often go for the shot which results in some spectacular shots.

I like two-foul nine ball, it's what I grew up on. But let's be real, it could be a mind-numbing push/safety battle as well. You push, I play safe, you push again, I play safe again, you push............