Two Shot Push Out - McCready vs St Louis Louie Roberts

[JAM]

One thing that is missing from this debate on push out is that after the push the incoming player could take the shot and play safe. This was often a strategy as well and possibly the real reason the game needed to be "speeded" up for tournament/television play.

There was a lot of art to the push but the incoming player was faced with three choices.

1. Take the shot to the pocket.
2. Play a safety
3. Give the shot back.

Now, as to shot making, there is now a lot of shotmaking in the game, probably MORE than when two-foul was in existence.

Why?

Because a lot of the time the best shot is to go for the shot rather than to attempt a difficult safety. By now all the top players know the moves just like one pocket so simply putting distance or leaving easy kicks isn't a guarantee that they will get another shot. Plus with the jump cue that cuts down the effectiveness of the safeties and requires players to try to lock down the cueball on safeties.

Thus players faced with the prospect of playing a difficult safety will often go for the shot which results in some spectacular shots.

I like two-foul nine ball, it's what I grew up on. But let's be real, it could be a mind-numbing push/safety battle as well. You push, I play safe, you push again, I play safe again, you push............

Good post, John. Your explanation makes it easy for a railbird like me to understand.

BTW, adhering a little to the topic of the thread, I don't think Keith has ever been in an extensive safety battle in his life. He goes for shots that make me literally cringe. :angry:

I have been told that he's a "rhythm shooter," meaning he likes to shoot pool to a beat, I guess, but Keith's beat is just too doggone fast. I had often wish he'd slow down and take time to think about a difficult shot, like Nick Varner does. :wink:

But with Keith, even when encountering the most difficult of shots, it's like "fire in the hole" or "all pockets stand by."

Maybe some players are boring to watch with their safety play in two-shot/push-out, but I will guarantee you there will be no down time when McCready is in the pit. He'll keep you on the edge of your seat.

 

[Black-Balled]

... I don't think Keith has ever been in an extensive safety battle in his life. He goes for shots that make me literally cringe. :angry:

I ... wish he'd slow down and take time to think about a difficult shot, like Nick Varner does. :wink:

But with Keith, even when encountering the most difficult of shots, it's like "fire in the hole" or "all pockets stand by."

Keith is a fighter pilot, Nick is a truck transport driver!

 

[JAM]

Keith is a fighter pilot, Nick is a truck transport driver!

:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:

Oh, man, thanks for the morning chuckle. I needed that! :lol:

 

[JB Cases]

Good post, John. Your explanation makes it easy for a railbird like me to understand.

BTW, adhering a little to the topic of the thread, I don't think Keith has ever been in an extensive safety battle in his life. He goes for shots that make me literally cringe. :angry:

I have been told that he's a "rhythm shooter," meaning he likes to shoot pool to a beat, I guess, but Keith's beat is just too doggone fast. I had often wish he'd slow down and take time to think about a difficult shot, like Nick Varner does. :wink:

But with Keith, even when encountering the most difficult of shots, it's like "fire in the hole" or "all pockets stand by."

Maybe some players are boring to watch with their safety play in two-shot/push-out, but I will guarantee you there will be no down time when McCready is in the pit. He'll keep you on the edge of your seat.

Yes I know I have played Keith and watched him play in person. But for the banger crowd like me that can't take the shot and can't pass it back because we know the other guy is a terrific shot maker the option of playing safe against the push drags the game out.

I was just pointing out that a lot of us have forgotten that safe against the push option. Get two bangers in a set of two-foul and it might take all day.

 

[JAM]

Yes I know I have played Keith and watched him play in person. But for the banger crowd like me that can't take the shot and can't pass it back because we know the other guy is a terrific shot maker the option of playing safe against the push drags the game out.

I was just pointing out that a lot of us have forgotten that safe against the push option. Get two bangers in a set of two-foul and it might take all day.

I don't consider you in the "banger crowd," John. Give yourself a little credit where credit is due. You've got more gamble that many, and you're not afraid to step up to the plate yourself. Remember, this is *me* you're writing to. I've seen you hit balls!

I know that a game with these rules between, say, Nick Varner and Ralf Souquet might be quite, uh, elongated, for lack of a better term. :grin:

 

[HawaiianEye]

Was rereading old posts and figured I'd bring this to the top since a couple of people were wondering what two-shot rollout was.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Thanks keith, you nailed it!!!

Was rereading old posts and figured I'd bring this to the top since a couple of people were wondering what two-shot rollout was.

THANKS KEITH, YOU NAILED IT!!!

Wow, I'd never read this before, I 100% agree with Keith and that's how we ALL gambled when I was growing up. The ROLLOUT game is TEN times better as as far as stategy, shot-making, and "two way shots" than "One Foul".

The game of 9 Ball NEVER had to be changed if the correct rules were in place and the break/rack was addressed correctly.

Ten Ball is just a cheap fix, it's certainly not a better game than 9 Ball. Instead of fixing the rules and addressing the problems they just added another ball???

Am I in the Twilight Zone or what is the deal? :groucho:

 

[jay helfert]

I remember fighting Richie Florence over this rule change for the 1982 Caesars Tahoe event, which was televised on ESPN. I absolutely couldn't believe he would change the rules from "two shot push out, and ALL balls spot" to Texas Express and all balls stay down on a scratch and it's one foul, BIH. He said he was doing it for television. Richie was the promoter and I was the TD, so I had no choice but to go along with it. That tournament really signaled the evolution of Texas Express as the way 9-Ball was played in major tournaments.

No question, there is a helluva lot more skill playing two shot push out! If the powers that be want to make the game (9-Ball or Ten Ball) tougher, that's the way to go, not call shot. The best players WILL win playing this way, that's for sure. You can't luck out and win a match!

 

[Pushout]

Well said, Jay! By someone who obviously has the experience to say it.


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[JAM]

...When they changed the rules to this one-foul/ball-in-hand B.S. and the red circle cueball, my game went down to the 7-ball. It took a lot of your offensive arsenal and threw it in the sh*t can. It's a shame a guy can make easy mistake, kiss off a titty, kiss off another ball, and when you look up, you just got hit with a 4-pack. He gets rewarded for making an easy mistake.

This is what resonates with me about two-shot/push-out rules. :smile:

FWIW, Gene Hooker, et al., did produce the Trump 10-Ball Challenge in Atlantic City, which did utilize the two-shot/push-out rules. The finals came down to Canadian Danny Hewitt and King James Rempe, with Danny coming out on top.

The tournament was plagued with problems, though, due to a major snowstorm in the area the night before, preventing spectators, pool enthusiasts, fans, and even the players from showing up. They closed all roads going in and out of Atlantic City. I think we were the last car on the road that made it in, and we barely made it there. Airports were shut down.

Gene Hooker,et al., delayed the tournament one day. Man, what a bummer it was to be locked in a casino with Keith. Thank goodness, the ATMs put a daily limit on my ATM card of 300 bucks. Whew!

I actually enjoyed seeing pool played with these rules. What a shame this tournament didn't get more publicity. I know Gene Hooker and crew were bummed out because of the snowstorm. They put a lot into this event to make it successful.

It was one of the few times that King James ventured out to compete professionally again. I think he liked these rules too, which is why he showed up.

 

[justadub]

Just wondering, with all the questions about Texas Express, when and why and all, has Randy G ever given his perspective here on AZB? I'm not good with the search fucntion here...

 

[Island Drive]

Just wondering, with all the questions about Texas Express, when and why and all, has Randy G ever given his perspective here on AZB? I'm not good with the search fucntion here...

He made some money, membership numbers were pretty strong for years, and the main Roadie/promoter....John McChesney was doin' good enough, he purchased a custom TX motorhome for the McDermott tour....& he sold some firearms and did calcuttas. A one of a kind great front man Who was a Roadie on tour before before pool, with an iconic Band. Doors?
Randys strength, seemed to lean towards teaching as to Tourning, smart move if ya ask me. They are both dbl tough, but Randy gets to stay home more, or NOT.:grin-square:

 

[Pushout]

Just wondering, with all the questions about Texas Express, when and why and all, has Randy G ever given his perspective here on AZB? I'm not good with the search fucntion here...

Yes, if I remember right, he has. I'm not looking it up, though.

 

[FordSVTCobra]

Push out rules definitely made the game a lot more interesting.

 

[Bigtruck]

Brandon Shuff and I did a 2 foul pushout tournament in Houston a couple years ago. There is a video or 2 from that on my Youtube channel. CJ Wiley was in one of them.

Ray

 

[Rockin' Robin]

Interesting rehash of an often debated subject. Some good info and some bad info but still something worth reading. John M, RandyG, and myself brought organization to the sport and standardized a set of rules that were easy to understand and deeper payouts that afforded the average player a chance to finish in the cash.

Was it a way to make a living? Nope. Was it good for the sport? Absolutely. Was it brought to a halt after 15 years of events because of no support, sponsorship, endless knockers, etc? Yep.

I always have a set of speeches I give to the unassuming, uninformed, and have noclue crowd, but the only thing I have realized is that most have everything bass-ackwards.

In the words of the immortal Minnesota Fats, "I could talk non-stop for 24 hours, and never repeat myself"........but I have learned that it does no good to those that won't or refuse to listen.

 

[woody_968]

Brandon Shuff and I did a 2 foul pushout tournament in Houston a couple years ago. There is a video or 2 from that on my Youtube channel. CJ Wiley was in one of them.

Ray

Thanks Truck!!!! I'm watching one of them now.

What was the overall reaction from the players on the rules for this tournament?

 

[Bigtruck]

Thanks Truck!!!! I'm watching one of them now.

What was the overall reaction from the players on the rules for this tournament?

It was well received. Not one complaint about losing due to luck. A lot of good shot making too.

Ray

 

[CJ Wiley]

they will never win a safety/shot making duel with a champion player.

Brandon Shuff and I did a 2 foul pushout tournament in Houston a couple years ago. There is a video or 2 from that on my Youtube channel. CJ Wiley was in one of them.

Ray

Yes, Ray, I played in that tournament because of the rules. It takes a lot to get me to go to a tournament these days because the "odds on the money" are just not appealing with the lucky rules, short races, etc. When they decide TWO SHOT is the best game I'll come to a LOT more tournaments....it will be fun again.

However, the Two Shot Rules are so much better for the better players. I can understand why they changed them because they didn't want the same players winning every tournament. I hadn't been playing much at all and still got 5 th in this tournament because of the rules.

Even when I got down 3 or 4 games I knew my opponent couldn't win, they will never win a safety/shot making duel with a champion player. The reason I didn't win the tournament is I played a very weak match in the quarterfinal winner's side and just gave the match away, I think I scratched 3 times on the break and missed 2 easy shots and it was still close.....bar table, sometimes you get them, somethings they get you.

 

[pt109]

Interesting rehash of an often debated subject. Some good info and some bad info but still something worth reading. John M, RandyG, and myself brought organization to the sport and standardized a set of rules that were easy to understand and deeper payouts that afforded the average player a chance to finish in the cash.

Was it a way to make a living? Nope. Was it good for the sport? Absolutely. Was it brought to a halt after 15 years of events because of no support, sponsorship, endless knockers, etc? Yep.

I always have a set of speeches I give to the unassuming, uninformed, and have noclue crowd, but the only thing I have realized is that most have everything bass-ackwards.

In the words of the immortal Minnesota Fats, "I could talk non-stop for 24 hours, and never repeat myself"........but I have learned that it does no good to those that won't or refuse to listen.

I played 'roll out' and resisted 'texas express' for a while.....
...and then I realized that the new rules brought a whole new set of skills
to the game.....here is a shot that would never have been seen with 'roll out' rules....
...he would have just rolled out.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...=MPiauAhBRDni1pMFlSrf6A&bvm=bv.47008514,d.dmg