U.S. Open rules discussion

its USA Open not World 9ball championship

So imo its better for the US Open to leave its mark, and thats how it should be :
Rack your own using a triangle rack(a new wooden rack is fine)
1 on the spot
break: whity anywere in the kitchen
winner break.....

but if the player pick up the triangle.......no corections alowed must break as it is
fast and loose thats 9 ball
i still like Earl he is the best:wink:
 
FranCrimi said:
Once you change the traditional way of racking the balls, then the game is no longer the same.

So you may as well:

Rack 10 balls and remove the 10 ball after the break.

or -- Rack all 15 with the 9 in the middle and remove the 10-15 balls after the break.

or -- Just randomly throw the balls out on to the table and eliminate the break completely.
Click to expand...

I like racking 10 balls and removing 1 after the break...I know, I missed the point. :smile:. Johnnyt
 
When I was watching the World Cup, Some of the guys where crushing the balls and three balls just did not pass head string. This happened quit a bit. This just adds another element of luck to the game. I think luck should not be a part of the matches outcome.
 
We will be using the Diamond triangle. It's a good one. Thanks for the input so far, very helpful!
I wish we had a ref for every table. How nice that would be. Unfortunately we don't. Maybe in the future......
 
Question that might prompt an answer: When a player soft breaks, do three or more balls usually either pocket or pass the centerline of the table? (In other words, instead of making the rule "beyond the headstring", make it "beyond the centerline."

If the answer is "Yes, it's easy to soft break and have three balls past the centerline" then it's not a good idea. But if the answer is No, then that might be the solution.

I think the rule has to be objective, like number of balls beyond a certain point. Hard and soft are too subjective, especially in matches in which there's no ref.
 
jay helfert said:
As TD this year it is my goal to make the rules as fair as possible for everyone. It will be a stellar field, full of great players, and for that I'm excited. Since this is a WPA sanctioned event we will follow their rules as closely as possible.

9-Ball, Texas Express, Winner Breaks and Rack Your Own for starters. We will be playing Foul on All Balls, which is the way most major events are played today all over the world. An incidental touch of a shirt sleeve will not constitute a foul unless the ball moves. It's actually much easier to officiate playing all ball fouls than playing cue ball fouls only. If a ball moves you fouled and there is no question about it.

The big question is how to rack the balls, and there is no clear WPA rule to cover that. We will definitely be using the break box and can either rack the one on the spot or the nine on the spot. The problem with racking the one on the spot is the wing ball is wired for one of the corner pockets, thus making a run-out that much easier. With the nine on the spot this is not the case. Most of the top players I've talked to support the idea of racking the nine on the spot. It makes for a better game requiring more skill. That's the way they do it on all Matchroom events and it seems to work pretty well for them.

Barry's goal as the promoter of this event is to make it the best test of pool in the USA, similar to the U.S. Open in golf. I'm still open to suggestions about this and anything else rule related. I seriously doubt we will require three or more balls to be pocketed or sent past the head string. But we will not allow soft breaking. A cut break is okay as long as a firm stroke is used.

Thanks for your input. Barry has a lot of faith in the members of this forum and he asked me to please put this out there for all to see. It also serves to inform the players in advance what rules we will be using.
Click to expand...

How about 9 on the spot and a center line so any titling would be obvious? 1 in front and 2 in the back. I think the soft break should be allowed or something simple like a loss of turn foul if no balls are pocketed or cross the head string.
 
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If you don't want to have a soft break, you MUST have either a ball past certain line requirement, or get radar detectors/iPhones on each table rail.

Leaving it up to a ref is a recipe for disaster. I believe it was 3 or 4 years ago there was a "no soft break" rule in place, that was determined subjectively. Barry in one of his press releases wrote something to the affect of "we all know what a soft break is". Well, Mika soft broke almost every time, and he was not called out for it. This was on the TV tables in the later rounds, where the ref was in use. I thought that was BS. Whats the point of having a rule if you don't have an objective way of qualifying it?

Imagine a cop pulling you over for speeding because your car "looked" like it was going fast.

So, either come up with a repeatable way to measure the break speed, or come up with another measure (balls past certain line, loudness of break contact, etc.), but don't leave it up to a ref to determine if it was legal or not.
 
I personally liked the WCOP rules the best, if the intent is a hard break.

I noticed that as the rounds went on in the WCOP tournament, the illegal breaks occurred less. This was because the players were better in the later rounds. The better players hit the 1 harder and squarer than the weaker players. This shows that the break was more a skill shot, than a luck shot, in getting 3 balls past the headstring. Mika's partner (sorry forgot his name), had the best break of anyone. He hit them so hard and square they flew everywhere, every time. That is a skill, not luck.

So if you want it "skill based", I'd vote for 3 balls past headstring. This would make a hard but inaccurate break illegal.

If you want it "effort based", I'd vote for a minimum mph measured by a radar or an iPhone. This would make a hard but inaccurate break legal.
 
bdorman said:
Question that might prompt an answer: When a player soft breaks, do three or more balls usually either pocket or pass the centerline of the table? (In other words, instead of making the rule "beyond the headstring", make it "beyond the centerline."

If the answer is "Yes, it's easy to soft break and have three balls past the centerline" then it's not a good idea. But if the answer is No, then that might be the solution.

I think the rule has to be objective, like number of balls beyond a certain point. Hard and soft are too subjective, especially in matches in which there's no ref.
Click to expand...

This is a great post. In order to come up with a qualification of what is hard and what is soft, you as the tournament director need to do a series of experiments to say when you break them like X, the result is Y. And when you break them like A, the result is B. And when you break them like M, the result is N. Then you can use that information to come up with your "objective" measure of break speed.
 
dannyb78 said:
When I was watching the World Cup, Some of the guys where crushing the balls and three balls just did not pass head string. This happened quit a bit. This just adds another element of luck to the game. I think luck should not be a part of the matches outcome.
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree. I can't remember what match, but the break was crushed, and four balls collided in the corner and rested there with only one crossing the head string. So illegal break even though ball was pocketed. Luck is already a nine ball factor (see karl's missed 8 in final rack of world cup) but leaving it to where the balls roll after the break is the worst ever.

I wonder if there is a stat, how many illegal break and turning table over during world cup, and did incoming team win the rack. I'm sure it plays a big part in the outcome.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I personally liked the WCOP rules the best, if the intent is a hard break.

I noticed that as the rounds went on in the WCOP tournament, the illegal breaks occurred less. This was because the players were better in the later rounds. The better players hit the 1 harder and squarer than the weaker players. This shows that the break was more a skill shot, than a luck shot, in getting 3 balls past the headstring. Mika's partner (sorry forgot his name), had the best break of anyone. He hit them so hard and square they flew everywhere, every time. That is a skill, not luck.

So if you want it "skill based", I'd vote for 3 balls past headstring. This would make a hard but inaccurate break illegal.

If you want it "effort based", I'd vote for a minimum mph measured by a radar or an iPhone. This would make a hard but inaccurate break legal.
Click to expand...

I liked the WCOP break rule as well. I didn't at first, but as the tournament went on, I felt it brought another level of drama to the game that made it more interesting to watch. Luck or not, it was interesting to see and feel the momentum swing brought on by the illegal break. It made for good TV!
 
FranCrimi said:
Once you change the traditional way of racking the balls, then the game is no longer the same.

So you may as well:

Rack 10 balls and remove the 10 ball after the break.

or -- Rack all 15 with the 9 in the middle and remove the 10-15 balls after the break.

or -- Just randomly throw the balls out on to the table and eliminate the break completely.
Click to expand...

Indeed! Hiya, Fran!
 
jay helfert said:
As TD this year it is my goal to make the rules as fair as possible for everyone. It will be a stellar field, full of great players, and for that I'm excited. Since this is a WPA sanctioned event we will follow their rules as closely as possible.

9-Ball, Texas Express, Winner Breaks and Rack Your Own for starters. We will be playing Foul on All Balls, which is the way most major events are played today all over the world. An incidental touch of a shirt sleeve will not constitute a foul unless the ball moves. It's actually much easier to officiate playing all ball fouls than playing cue ball fouls only. If a ball moves you fouled and there is no question about it.

The big question is how to rack the balls, and there is no clear WPA rule to cover that. We will definitely be using the break box and can either rack the one on the spot or the nine on the spot. The problem with racking the one on the spot is the wing ball is wired for one of the corner pockets, thus making a run-out that much easier. With the nine on the spot this is not the case. Most of the top players I've talked to support the idea of racking the nine on the spot. It makes for a better game requiring more skill. That's the way they do it on all Matchroom events and it seems to work pretty well for them.

Barry's goal as the promoter of this event is to make it the best test of pool in the USA, similar to the U.S. Open in golf. I'm still open to suggestions about this and anything else rule related. I seriously doubt we will require three or more balls to be pocketed or sent past the head string. But we will not allow soft breaking. A cut break is okay as long as a firm stroke is used.

Thanks for your input. Barry has a lot of faith in the members of this forum and he asked me to please put this out there for all to see. It also serves to inform the players in advance what rules we will be using.
Click to expand...

Any thoughts on pattern racking and soft breaks? As in "NO" to either :smile: ? I'm guessing with so many tables in play it would have to be on the honor system though, it's not like you can stick a ref or a radar gun on every table.

Just don't do that silly 3 balls past the line rule.
 
hang-the-9 said:
Any thoughts on pattern racking and soft breaks? As in "NO" to either :smile: ? I'm guessing with so many tables in play it would have to be on the honor system though, it's not like you can stick a ref or a radar gun on every table.

Just don't do that silly 3 balls past the line rule.
Click to expand...

Along my theme of Keep It Simple (three balls either pocketed or beyond the centerline), there's a simple solution to pattern racking:

Breaker racks the balls any way he wants, but before "tightening" the rack his opponent gets to switch the position of any two balls (except the one and nine, of course). After the switch the breaker tightens the rack and lifts the triangle.

This way the breaker gets to make sure the rack is tight and his opponent gets to make sure that it doesn't result in an easy pattern.

Try it. You'll find that you can destroy any pattern but simply switching the position of two balls.

Keep It Simple. Disaster awaits all who rely on technology like iPhones, radar guns, software, etc.
 
Rack the 1 Ball on the spot, this is an American tournament and the American players are used to the 1 Ball being racked on the spot. If you rack the 9 Ball on the spot this is what the Europeans are used to as this is the way they rack them on the Euro Tour. Shane even said on the ABR interview that when they changed the way the balls were racked (meaning to 9-Ball on spot) is when the Americans basically stopped winning in the Mosconi Cup, prior to that when we were winning the balls were racked with the 1 Ball on the spot.

So my vote is for 1 ball on the spot !
 
bdorman said:
Along my theme of Keep It Simple (three balls either pocketed or beyond the centerline), there's a simple solution to pattern racking:

Breaker racks the balls any way he wants, but before "tightening" the rack his opponent gets to switch the position of any two balls (except the one and nine, of course). After the switch the breaker tightens the rack and lifts the triangle.

This way the breaker gets to make sure the rack is tight and his opponent gets to make sure that it doesn't result in an easy pattern.

Try it. You'll find that you can destroy any pattern but simply switching the position of two balls.

Keep It Simple. Disaster awaits all who rely on technology like iPhones, radar guns, software, etc.
Click to expand...

I like this ^^^^^^^
 
jay helfert said:
We will be using the Diamond triangle. It's a good one. Thanks for the input so far, very helpful!
I wish we had a ref for every table. How nice that would be. Unfortunately we don't. Maybe in the future......
Click to expand...

Actually the Diamond triangle wants to always pull the 1 ball away from the rest
in my experience. Even more so when humid. I don't like that triangle.
 
Cracktherack said:
Rack your own? How long will it take the shooter from Maine to figure this out?
Click to expand...

I'm seriously wondering if you just come on here to bash Mike Dechaine every chance you get. Can you please do us all a favor and stop posting if you're not going to contribute anything to discussions? It's extremely annoying to see you all over every thread bashing someone for being smart enough to exploit a flaw in the system to gain an edge. It happens in every game/sport.

OT: Rack the 9 on the spot. Last year it was a little easy to play in it, because of the wing ball being wired. MD beat me 11-2 in the 3rd round with like 8 break and runs. Can't complain, but I will say that the Mosconi Cup this year was much more exciting when it was a tactical battle instead of running out all the time. Test it out for once! We'll never know if we don't try it.
 
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