Unethical or Just Lucky?

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you hit on the difference

I too will tell people what something is worth if they ask or that is what I am there for. That doesn't mean I will pay that for it and if they want to sell it to me I tell them what I will pay. I had a business with $15,000 a month overhead. I could have traded even for two months and been broke.

The cue dealer was to be called to discuss the cue according to the first post. That implies that everything including the value of the cue would be discussed. Having the lady set the price then wasn't ethical. Had she said fifty thousand he would have immediately corrected her idea of the value.

Some years back a friend of a friend had a rifle I wanted. He told me he would take six hundred for it. When I went and looked at it I told him I would give him seven hundred for it plus new price for the cheap case it was in. Seven hundred was fair market value for the rifle in my opinion. This was the first time I had met the seller and I never saw him again since he lives several states away.

Hu

poolpro said:
This is an interesting thread.

As has already been stated. It is a little strange to find that almost EVERYONE on here feels that it is very cut and dried, and that you should always take the high road.

Everyone knows the unwritten code of gambling. Hustling is using your knowledge of the game to take advantage of another. This practice is widely accepted, encouraged, and bragged about among pool players.

I will say that MY personal rationalization for getting the better end of things is the fact that the mark has to take the bait. You cannot get hustled UNLESS you are greedy. The classic hustle is to downplay your ability to win and look like the mark yourself. If the real mark is not interested in some "easy money" he cannot get taken. Kind of instant karma. I used to actively seek out opportunities of this nature. Though, I would much rather have a real honest game for money than "steal" anymore. While I do not seek it out, I am not above giving a loud trash talking C or D player a game and " make it more interesting" too.


I do agree that in this specific situation it is pretty disgusting.

I am ALWAYS looking for a deal. I tend to do very well when buying and selling. I have a $2400 guitar that I bought from a pawnshop for $ 170 with the case to go with it. Was I wrong? I do not feel bad at all. I know they probably paid less than $100 for it. They made their money on me.

I also bought a very nice cue from a pawnshop. It is a one of a kind 4 pointer with ivory joint, butt cap and inlays. It has a predator shaft also. I paid a litlle more for it than what the shaft alone is worth. I tried to buy it for less. They originally wanted $600. Am I unethical?

By the way, I actually recognized the cue as previously being owned by a local player, who I did not know personally, but met one time before. I actually made phone calls to see if this cue was stolen. If it indeed was stolen and missing, I was going to make sure it got back to its original owner. I verified that the cues past owner was actively selling this and many other cues recently. I bought it about 10 seconds later.

Many times people have come to me asking what an item that I am knowledgeable is worth. I will often make them an offer to buy it. Many times I tell them " I will buy it for $x, it is worth more, sombody else may give you more for it, but I am only interested if I can get it for under $x". I do not lie to them. I explain that I am interested in getting as good of a deal as I can. I have told some it is worth twice what I am offering you, but I have cash right now at this price. This is how pawn shops stay in business. They openly let you know that they will NOT pay anywhere close to what an item is worth, BUT they WILL give you cash right this instant for it. They have the same item on the shelf for 3 times what they just offered to buy yours for, but they will not budge on their offer. Is this unethical? Can you be honest about being shady?:grin: I guess that is a matter of opinion.

I ALWAYS let people know I am interested in buying certain items. They know before contacting me, that I am a possible buyer of these items, and I have a better than average knowledge of them. I am not an appraiser, and have never taken a penny to appraise an item. I make offers on items. I am not a recognized expert, my opinion of an items value is NOT going to hold any weight to any real expert.


I have knowingly sold items for less than they are worth because I need the money more than I needed the item.


In the example given, I agree that the dealer was wrong. If he wants to stay in business it is a very bad idea to take advantage of a customer like that. He was called on as an expert. This is a distinction.

However, the woman KNEW he was an expert. Was he charging money to do an appraisal?I f not, than she was asking for a free service from an expert. The moment he made an offer to buy it, he became a potential buyer. She should know that if he just accepts the number she put out there without blinking, she should be careful.



After all of this evidence of people on here being 100% moral and not taking advantage, I would love to see what would happen if I put up a Dennis Searing cue for $500 how many people will say " I have to give you more" I bet it would be sold in less than 10 minutes.
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You still have not answered the question.

ShootingArts said:
Had I simply said I had a lot of black friends you would have continued to attack. The only reason you are acting reasonable now is that your ROE violations are documented and Dave has taken an interest in the thread. I explained things for the people that try to be rational and reasonable. You don't fall in that group.

Hu
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You have given everybody a nice black history lesson and pointed out that I am an "ass" that has bad reading comprehension and a low IQ but you have not answered my question. What does her being black have to do with anything? I don't need to know about how she may have grown up or about how I should have assumed this and that. Was the fact that she was black a determining factor in taking advantage of her? If she was white, educated, and young would your buddy have been more prone to screw her? This was a thread on ethics dealing with a cue and you brought in race for some reason and I am ignorant for asking you to explain yourself? Why didn't you just write that "a person brought in a gun"? Think of it like this, if you wrote that she was an ugly old woman I would have asked about the relevance of her looks. Also, I'm not sure if calling someone a moron is breaking any rules when you wrote what you did.
 
bumpypickle said:
At what dollar amount does the "screwing" end and the "cue dealer" begin? It's all relative as I originally posted. She got what she asked for and he made some $ from it but everyone was happy.
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It's not about the amount of money. It's about the assumed deception on the part of KCD.

You know exactly what this is about.

I will put in other terms for you since someone else put up a $500 Searing as an example.

If someone put up a for sale ad and said Dennis Searing $500 then EVERYONE would assume that person knew what they had and had their own reasons for selling it at far below market value.

However if someone put up a post that said HELP ME identify this cue's value and the first person who responded said, that looks a lot like a no-name import cue WHEN THEY KNEW FULL WELL THAT IT'S A SEARING and asked for a price and then got a price well below market value then they LIED to the person in order to get the cue.

If you LIE or CHEAT or DELIBERATELY MISLEAD in order to gain financially then you are being unethical. That may be "just business", it may be "legal", it may be "the way it's done", but it's still not right. That was the original question that this story asked, unethical or not? The answer is unethical - IF KCD was being asked for his HONEST opinion as to the cue's identity and value and he KNEW exactly what it was but downplayed it to get it cheap.

I am definitely not ruthless enough to ever get really rich I guess.
 
bumpypickle said:
You have given everybody a nice black history lesson and pointed out that I am an "ass" that has bad reading comprehension and a low IQ but you have not answered my question. What does her being black have to do with anything? I don't need to know about how she may have grown up or about how I should have assumed this and that. Was the fact that she was black a determining factor in taking advantage of her? If she was white, educated, and young would your buddy have been more prone to screw her? This was a thread on ethics dealing with a cue and you brought in race for some reason and I am ignorant for asking you to explain yourself? Why didn't you just write that "a person brought in a gun"? Think of it like this, if you wrote that she was an ugly old woman I would have asked about the relevance of her looks. Also, I'm not sure if calling someone a moron is breaking any rules when you wrote what you did.
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He did answer the question - in post number 92. And, it makes sense.

To answer one of your questions above, the fact she was black was not a determining factor in him considering to take advantage of her, it was who she was ALTOGETHER - black, poor, female, uneducated, etc. back in the day - that was almost the influence. The story was an example of someone NOT taking advantage of someone's situation, yet you are focusing on a part of the story that is just a simple fact - she was black.
 
JB Cases said:
I have. And in NONE of those games did I ever feel like I earned the money. In truth every time I saw that person I couldn't look them in the eye.

And I certainly didn't get the high I got when I was gambling and won after a tough battle.

There is no honor in thievery. You can call people who hustle smart gamblers but in fact they aren't gambling. They are making a living through deceit. Just like a car salesman who lies or anyone else who makes money by deceiving the customer.

Granted a lot of that is ONLY POSSIBLE because the customer is also greedy and thinking that they are getting over. But there is a major difference when the transaction is completely one sided where one side is completely reliant on the word of the other one.

Thinking about this whole thing however has left me with one nagging thought and that is that the woman who sold the cue should have thought to ask the KCD for references and followed up on them. In the internet age there is no excuse for selling something without checking it out on the net. Pretty much anything can be assessed as to it's identity and potential value. No matter what the KCD told her she should have held out and gone after other information - better safe than sorry as they say.

This doesn't excuse KCD's behavior and "theft" of the cue though.
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So every stripper in the world is earning a living unethically? they pretend to like everyone who walks in the door day in and day out. i saw a guy blow his whole paycheck in a strip joint because the chick kept leading him on. he didn't even have money for a cab ride home. if he hadn't been in the navy he would have starved for 2 weeks

a friend of mine got tricked with fancy word play when he bought his truck. he paid 40k for a 20k truck. That's not even accounting for the interest

my mechanic tried to tell me i needed a new radiator. i got my hands dirty and checked it myself and found all i had was a loose nut.

these things happen every day and nobody thinks any less of these people that do them. Why is it it's socially acceptable for these people to make their livings the way that they do but if your average joe makes a little cash doing something slightly unethical everyone on here acts like he's the worst person ever born?

nobody's ever going to go out of their way to make sure you have a fair shake at things. that's a personal responsibility
 
cuejoey said:
Get to know an old person say 80 or older you will see they have things in their attics garages ect from the old days that are now worth something as antiques...Many do not keep up with present day pricing...:)
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They don't have to keep up with it. they just have to check before they sell it
 
akaTrigger said:
He did answer the question - in post number 92. And, it makes sense.

To answer one of your questions above, the fact she was black was not a determining factor in him considering to take advantage of her, it was who she was ALTOGETHER - black, poor, female, uneducated, etc. back in the day - that was almost the influence. The story was an example of someone NOT taking advantage of someone's situation, yet you are focusing on a part of the story that is just a simple fact - she was black.
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i think what bumpy pickle is saying is that shooting arts didn't have to bring up her race. he could just as easily said that the woman was old and close to illiterate.

i used to run into this a lot when i was around a lot of southerners (a lot of marines are from the south). instead of saying a big guy walked into the room, it's always mentioned that a big "black" guy walked into the room. if the woman in the story had been white i don't think it would have been mentioned.

i think it's subconscious
 
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poolpro said:
This is an interesting thread.

As has already been stated. It is a little strange to find that almost EVERYONE on here feels that it is very cut and dried, and that you should always take the high road.

In this case you should. Then it's win/win for everybody involved.

Everyone knows the unwritten code of gambling. Hustling is using your knowledge of the game to take advantage of another. This practice is widely accepted, encouraged, and bragged about among pool players.

I will say that MY personal rationalization for getting the better end of things is the fact that the mark has to take the bait. You cannot get hustled UNLESS you are greedy. The classic hustle is to downplay your ability to win and look like the mark yourself. If the real mark is not interested in some "easy money" he cannot get taken. Kind of instant karma. I used to actively seek out opportunities of this nature. Though, I would much rather have a real honest game for money than "steal" anymore. While I do not seek it out, I am not above giving a loud trash talking C or D player a game and " make it more interesting" too. ]]

Right. If the other person is trying to steal from you then that's a different story.


I do agree that in this specific situation it is pretty disgusting.

I am ALWAYS looking for a deal. I tend to do very well when buying and selling. I have a $2400 guitar that I bought from a pawnshop for $ 170 with the case to go with it. Was I wrong? I do not feel bad at all. I know they probably paid less than $100 for it. They made their money on me.

Different story. That's a situation where a business should know what they have and price it accordingly. Furthermore you are the consumer reacting to a pre-defined price. No problem.

I also bought a very nice cue from a pawnshop. It is a one of a kind 4 pointer with ivory joint, butt cap and inlays. It has a predator shaft also. I paid a litlle more for it than what the shaft alone is worth. I tried to buy it for less. They originally wanted $600. Am I unethical?

Once again you are a consumer dealing with a pre-defined price. No shame in driving a hard bargain. If they accept your offer then good.


By the way, I actually recognized the cue as previously being owned by a local player, who I did not know personally, but met one time before. I actually made phone calls to see if this cue was stolen. If it indeed was stolen and missing, I was going to make sure it got back to its original owner. I verified that the cues past owner was actively selling this and many other cues recently. I bought it about 10 seconds later.

That's being ethical and responsible about it as well as practical because if you had purchased stolen property then you could have been made to forfeit it without compensation.

Many times people have come to me asking what an item that I am knowledgeable is worth. I will often make them an offer to buy it. Many times I tell them " I will buy it for $x, it is worth more, sombody else may give you more for it, but I am only interested if I can get it for under $x". I do not lie to them. I explain that I am interested in getting as good of a deal as I can. I have told some it is worth twice what I am offering you, but I have cash right now at this price. This is how pawn shops stay in business. They openly let you know that they will NOT pay anywhere close to what an item is worth, BUT they WILL give you cash right this instant for it. They have the same item on the shelf for 3 times what they just offered to buy yours for, but they will not budge on their offer. Is this unethical? Can you be honest about being shady?:grin: I guess that is a matter of opinion.

That's just normal business. People make lowball offers all the time and people who really need the money or don't care accept them. It just goes to show that "value" is fluid in both directions. Again no shame in driving a hard bargain. Karmically it's probably not to cool to make a habit of profiting from people's desperation but that's what pawnshop's do and it's just a part of life. No breach of ethics there.

I ALWAYS let people know I am interested in buying certain items. They know before contacting me, that I am a possible buyer of these items, and I have a better than average knowledge of them. I am not an appraiser, and have never taken a penny to appraise an item. I make offers on items. I am not a recognized expert, my opinion of an items value is NOT going to hold any weight to any real expert.

Then those people know what they are getting into when they call you.


I have knowingly sold items for less than they are worth because I need the money more than I needed the item.

Haven't we all?


In the example given, I agree that the dealer was wrong. If he wants to stay in business it is a very bad idea to take advantage of a customer like that. He was called on as an expert. This is a distinction.

However, the woman KNEW he was an expert. Was he charging money to do an appraisal?I f not, than she was asking for a free service from an expert. The moment he made an offer to buy it, he became a potential buyer. She should know that if he just accepts the number she put out there without blinking, she should be careful.

True. Because she was naive and stupid doesn't mean it's ok for him to take advantage of that.


After all of this evidence of people on here being 100% moral and not taking advantage, I would love to see what would happen if I put up a Dennis Searing cue for $500 how many people will say " I have to give you more" I bet it would be sold in less than 10 minutes.
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No, it would be gone in less than 60 seconds for $500. But it would be assumed that the person selling it had very good reasons for letting it go at that price if they knew what they were selling. Even if they put it up as unknown cue $500 then NO ONE would be obligated to inform the seller of the identity and value if the cue before purchasing it.

That is the difference between making an offer and soliciting an offer.
 
Seems the overwhelming opinion is that the deal was unethical.
It's amusing watching some of you take shots at each other to defend your opinion.
The smart person knows when to let it go. . . :D
 
poolplayer2093 said:
So every stripper in the world is earning a living unethically? they pretend to like everyone who walks in the door day in and day out. i saw a guy blow his whole paycheck in a strip joint because the chick kept leading him on. he didn't even have money for a cab ride home. if he hadn't been in the navy he would have starved for 2 weeks

The guy is paying an actress to fulfill a fantasy. Different situation - he's a sucker through and through.

a friend of mine got tricked with fancy word play when he bought his truck. he paid 40k for a 20k truck. That's not even accounting for the interest

Your friend is a sucker - the seller is an unethical liar and a thief.

my mechanic tried to tell me i needed a new radiator. i got my hands dirty and checked it myself and found all i had was a loose nut.

You are not a sucker - the mechanic is a unethical thief. An ethical one would have given you five minutes for free - fixed the loose nut and given you his card. You would have given him thousands in future business plus referrals.

these things happen every day and nobody thinks any less of these people that do them. Why is it it's socially acceptable for these people to make their livings the way that they do but if your average joe makes a little cash doing something slightly unethical everyone on here acts like he's the worst person ever born?

Um yes people do think quite a BIT LESS of the people who prey on others. There are all sorts of stereotypes to describe professions that are "known" for cheating consumers. This is not a story of the average "joe" making a little cash. It's a story about a very knowledgeable person taking advantage of a naive and ignorant one. Whether for .10cts or 10,000 the story is the same.

nobody's ever going to go out of their way to make sure you have a fair shake at things. that's a personal responsibility
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That's also not true. People do business all the time in a fair way. In fact MOST people do business with each other in a fair manner. If they didn't then this would be a much much different world. Free market societies are built mainly on trust because there is no true effective way to legislate and enforce "fairness" in all transactions. If everyone were mistrustful and cautious then we would learn to be that from a young age and every transaction would be similar to a hostage exchange in it's complexity.

It is personal responsibility to take care of yourself. But then again when you purchase milk at the store then you trust that everyone from the cow to your lips has made sure that the milk won't kill you. You trust the gas station to sell you gas that won't damage your car and you should be able trust an expert to give you a fair appraisal of the things you own.
 
AtLarge said:
"Hypothetical" scenario.

A widow is disposing of some of her recently-deceased husband's possessions, including an old pool cue. The cue-ignorant widow is advised to contact Knowledgeable Cue Dealer (KCD) to discuss the cue. KCD goes to her house, inspects the cue, and asks her how much she wants for it. She says she doesn't know, it has just been lying around in the attic for most of the past 35 years, .............., how about $250? KCD pays her the money and leaves with the cue.

The next day, KCD calls one of his cue-collecting customers and sells the highly inlaid Balabushka cue for $25,000.

Was KCD unethical, just lucky, or something else?
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This very much a standard practice most specially in book collecting business when widower will just try to unload anything they don't want.
 
JB Cases said:
That's also not true. People do business all the time in a fair way. In fact MOST people do business with each other in a fair manner. If they didn't then this would be a much much different world. Free market societies are built mainly on trust because there is no true effective way to legislate and enforce "fairness" in all transactions. If everyone were mistrustful and cautious then we would learn to be that from a young age and every transaction would be similar to a hostage exchange in it's complexity.

It is personal responsibility to take care of yourself. But then again when you purchase milk at the store then you trust that everyone from the cow to your lips has made sure that the milk won't kill you. You trust the gas station to sell you gas that won't damage your car and you should be able trust an expert to give you a fair appraisal of the things you own.
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all i'm saying is that there're are numerous professions that lie to people and tell what ever lie they have to to get as much money as they can.

every lie from "200k miles is nothing for this engine" to "hay there handsome"-quickly followed by "want a private dance?"

people accept these things as ok but if your average guy tries it it's the worst thing in the world.
 
crosseyedjoe said:
This very much a standard practice most specially in book collecting business when widower will just try to unload anything they don't want.
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another example of a people that do what they can to make money. these people aren't considered despicable.

i think all the people on here that insist that what the cue dealer did was so horrible must have too much money. or maybe they've just forgot what it's like to want for things they probably won't be eve able to afford
 
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Sam is showing the same bias against southerners and the pickle still can't read. Sam is showing quite a bias against many of the businesses I have been in too since I have owned mechanic shops, auto body shops, auto salvages, and a wrecker service as well as a few more auto related businesses. Most people in all of these businesses are ethical and those that are take a very dim view of those that aren't.

One of my friends was a customer of mine from 1970. He traded with me when I had a service station, mechanic shop, and body shop. He is a leading business consultant in the south and very knowledgeable about vehicles since he has a small farm and built, maintained, and raced his own cars for many years. Obviously not someone that I could have cheated for decades and he not be aware of it. He was featured on the entire top half of the front page of the business section of a major newspaper complete with a full color 8x10 picture when they featured an outstanding businessman each week for black business month. I feel real slighted that in all the years that the paper has been doing that they have never once featured one of my white friends that own businesses or myself during black business month. Could it be that race matters?

Hu
 
Hu, you are a pretty level headed guy. Kudos man, I would have gone off on these guys, but you stayed pretty even keeled.

Funny how the guy with no ethics sees racism in your posts.
 
poolplayer2093 said:
i think what bumpy pickle is saying is that shooting arts didn't have to bring up her race. he could just as easily said that the woman was old and close to illiterate.

i used to run into this a lot when i was around a lot of southerners (a lot of marines are from the south). instead of saying a big guy walked into the room, it's always mentioned that a big "black" guy walked into the room. if the woman in the story had been white i don't think it would have been mentioned.

i think it's subconscious
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He didn't have to is pickles opinion. It's part of the story.... and it paints a clearer picture about the story to me.
 
a lot of truth in old sayings . . .

uwate said:
Hu, you are a pretty level headed guy. Kudos man, I would have gone off on these guys, but you stayed pretty even keeled.

Funny how the guy with no ethics sees racism in your posts.
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There is often a lot of truth in old sayings. You ever hear "the first dog that barks is the guilty one"?

HU
 
Is that sorta like "he who smelt it dealt it"?

jk Hu, your a good guy and Bumpy Pickle hasnt been around here long enough to see that you have alot of friends here. Plus, you tell way better pool stories than he does. :)
 
ShootingArts said:
There is often a lot of truth in old sayings. You ever hear "the first dog that barks is the guilty one"?

HU
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i didn't call anyone a racist. i just said what i thought bumpy was trying to say a little more clearly.

the story would have made just as much sense, and might have been more clear, if you had just said "there was an old illiterate woman" instead of "an old black woman", and then left us to assume that because she was old and black that she was illiterate.

as for the comment about southerners and me being bias. i just wrote what i had noticed. being from california it really stuck out to me, when i was stationed with a bunch of guys from the south, that they would include the persons race in a story unless the person was white.
 
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