Unethical or Just Lucky?

[cuejoey]

You guys are jumping to lots of conclusions.

1. Nobody said "KCD" was referred as an appraiser or advisor. He may have gone to her explicitly as a buyer, in which case he's entitled to make the best deal he can.

2. Just because she's a widow doesn't mean she's needy or even bereaved. She may be a rich nag who killed her late husband for the inheritance.

About 90 percent of this sad story is in your heads.

pj
chgo

90% is in their heads because they have what is called a conscience and care about others....

 

[Gerry]

So it looks like if you are old and have some things of value, you legally have to get top dollar for them or someone is a criminal? I don't think the word "appraise" was written anywhere in the original post and as a "dealer", getting the cue as cheaply as posible would be the goal. She was offered $250 and she took $250, end of story. Snore Snore, you know what that is? It's me sleeping really heavy with an extra $24,750 in my pocket. Almost everyone on here seems to be like mother Theresa or something. It's unethical, it's this, it's that, yeah right. We all wish for a situation like this with property, old cars, antiques, whatever, and if you expect me to believe that a bunch of pool players would let a deal like this slip by or that you would save the old lady and search the earth for the guy that's going to give her the most $ for her cue, you're crazy. You guys are the same people that sit on the rail and kill action because it's unethical to let someone play with someone that is better than them. Now if you will excuse me, one of my elderly neighbors just croaked and I think his widow is a heavy drinker. Cha Ching.

I agree with much of this post!......it is funny to be reading about ethics in our forum, that for the most part worships gamblers, hustlers, roadmen that made their living basically with a mask on holding a cue and robbing the bangers.....

 

[JB Cases]

So it looks like if you are old and have some things of value, you legally have to get top dollar for them or someone is a criminal? I don't think the word "appraise" was written anywhere in the original post and as a "dealer", getting the cue as cheaply as posible would be the goal. She was offered $250 and she took $250, end of story. Snore Snore, you know what that is? It's me sleeping really heavy with an extra $24,750 in my pocket. Almost everyone on here seems to be like mother Theresa or something. It's unethical, it's this, it's that, yeah right. We all wish for a situation like this with property, old cars, antiques, whatever, and if you expect me to believe that a bunch of pool players would let a deal like this slip by or that you would save the old lady and search the earth for the guy that's going to give her the most $ for her cue, you're crazy. You guys are the same people that sit on the rail and kill action because it's unethical to let someone play with someone that is better than them. Now if you will excuse me, one of my elderly neighbors just croaked and I think his widow is a heavy drinker. Cha Ching.

You're right the word "appraise" was not in the original post. You're right the woman sold it so **** her. But no, we ALL don't hope for a situation where we can screw someone.

Screwing someone is unethical no matter how you look at it. You can try and justify all you want to and it's still wrong. In some cases it's not legal.

You don't have to get top dollar for your things. But you shouldn't be lied to about the real value when you consult an "expert". It's an abuse of trust. Big deal, boo hoo, everyone should know their crap right? Yes I suppose they should.

I get swindled all the time because I didn't spend enough time to shop around or educate myself on what I am buying. Does that make it right that the sellers do that to me?

Let's reverse the situation and say it's a five year old kid who happens to have a $100 bill in their hands. You offer them a shiny brand new silver dollar for their $100 bill and they take it because they don't know the value of the bill is 100x the value of the coin. Is this right? Or should you take that opportunity to educate the child on the proper value and how to analyze an offer.

But whatever, you made your stance clear and that's cool. If you think it's cool to swindle someone then that's fine, no amount of examples are going to change your mind. I am sure if you and I were in the pool room you'd get one shot to hustle me out of some money and I'd probably fall for it.

 

[JimS]

Do you ever wonder why you have no friends? Do you ever wonder why you always seem left out? Are the holidays a really lonely time for you? Have you ever wondered why people avoid conversation with you? Take a good long look at your posts and try to read them through a normal persons eyes. Not through the eyes of an elitist that thinks they're right about everything. You're so worried about sounding sophisticated on this forum that you can't see when someone is busting your balls. Were you always picked last for kickball?

Your posts have made it clear that you not likely to act ethically and you are now attempting to cloud that fact by making personal attacks. It won't work. You have shown the forum who you are and every attempt at changing the focus makes it even more clear that you are not to be respected as an ethical man.

 

[poolplayer2093]

Your posts have made it clear that you not likely to act ethically and you are now attempting to cloud that fact by making personal attacks. It won't work. You have shown the forum who you are and every attempt at changing the focus makes it even more clear that you are not to be respected as an ethical man.

you never got in to a game where you were just "stealing"?

 

[akaTrigger]

Do you ever wonder why you have no friends? Do you ever wonder why you always seem left out? Are the holidays a really lonely time for you? Have you ever wondered why people avoid conversation with you? Take a good long look at your posts and try to read them through a normal persons eyes. Not through the eyes of an elitist that thinks they're right about everything. You're so worried about sounding sophisticated on this forum that you can't see when someone is busting your balls. Were you always picked last for kickball?

I completely disagree. I am proud to say I am a friend of Hu's!

He is a great guy who I appreciate on the forums. He gives great advice and I value his opinion.

 

[akaTrigger]

You guys are jumping to lots of conclusions.

1. Nobody said "KCD" was referred as an appraiser or adviser. He may have gone to her explicitly as a buyer, in which case he's entitled to make the best deal he can.

2. Just because she's a widow doesn't mean she's needy or even bereaved. She may be a rich nag who killed her late husband for the inheritance.

About 90 percent of this sad story is in your heads.

pj
chgo

TAP TAP TAP!!! LOTs of conclusions in this thread!

 

[JB Cases]

you never got in to a game where you were just "stealing"?

I have. And in NONE of those games did I ever feel like I earned the money. In truth every time I saw that person I couldn't look them in the eye.

And I certainly didn't get the high I got when I was gambling and won after a tough battle.

There is no honor in thievery. You can call people who hustle smart gamblers but in fact they aren't gambling. They are making a living through deceit. Just like a car salesman who lies or anyone else who makes money by deceiving the customer.

Granted a lot of that is ONLY POSSIBLE because the customer is also greedy and thinking that they are getting over. But there is a major difference when the transaction is completely one sided where one side is completely reliant on the word of the other one.

Thinking about this whole thing however has left me with one nagging thought and that is that the woman who sold the cue should have thought to ask the KCD for references and followed up on them. In the internet age there is no excuse for selling something without checking it out on the net. Pretty much anything can be assessed as to it's identity and potential value. No matter what the KCD told her she should have held out and gone after other information - better safe than sorry as they say.

This doesn't excuse KCD's behavior and "theft" of the cue though.

 

[JB Cases]

You guys are jumping to lots of conclusions.

1. Nobody said "KCD" was referred as an appraiser or advisor. He may have gone to her explicitly as a buyer, in which case he's entitled to make the best deal he can.

2. Just because she's a widow doesn't mean she's needy or even bereaved. She may be a rich nag who killed her late husband for the inheritance.

About 90 percent of this sad story is in your heads.

pj
chgo

And nobody said he wasn't. To "discuss the cue" implies that she is looking for some credible information as to it's value.

2. I agree - a lot of people were just speculating as you are doing here.

Most of us just stuck to the fact that a cue was purchased from a person who did not know what they had by a person who did know for a tiny fraction of what it was worth. And most of us agree that IF the KCD was called in to "act" as an appraiser/advisor of sorts then it's unethical for him to lie about or be vague about the potential value of the cue in order to be able to purchase it at a fraction of it's value. Honestly even if the person came in as a buyer there is an element of fairness that should exist between people where they aren't TRYING to steal from each other.

But that IS truly fantasy to expect.

 

[JB Cases]

I agree with much of this post!......it is funny to be reading about ethics in our forum, that for the most part worships gamblers, hustlers, roadmen that made their living basically with a mask on holding a cue and robbing the bangers.....

There is a little bit of a difference here. When the hustler matches up with the sucker then generally the sucker thinks HE is the hustler and is robbing the real hustler.

Still though it's unethical to downplay your skill in order to get a game but there isn't one of us who gambles who hasn't done it from time to time. But even at that both players THINK they have the best of it.

In this case it's tantamount to property theft when the KCD realizes that the woman has no clue what she has. At least that's how I see it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

To "discuss the cue" implies that she is looking for some credible information as to it's value.

If you want it to.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

Thanks

Michael,

What the would be attackers failed to recognize is that I was talking about one small rural community at that time too. What was true there might not have been true in a city. Even many years later when my grandmother and several uncles owned stores in similar small rural communities it was common for many people to only be able to make a mark and it was a source of pride to be able to sign your name. My uncles and Grandmother taught dozens of people how to sign their name and I taught some myself.

I do thank you for coming to my defense, most of my friends grab some popcorn and sit back to enjoy the show! I suspect that bumpy's original attacks were alcohol assisted and now he can't figure out how to retire with grace so he just keeps digging himself deeper.

He is right about one thing, I don't have scores of friends on the internet or in real life. However the quality of my friends does indeed put me in elite company, deserve to be or not. My friends think I deserve to be and my would be enemies don't matter. Few rise to the level of real enemies, they are only short term entertainment and forgotten about. Sam and I were able to easily resolve our differences once we understood each other and there isn't a big enough spot for the bump hang with me. Personal attacks are the last resort of a loser.

Hu

If we're talking about someone who was quote "elderly" 20-25 years ago, and that person is black, we can probably assume that person wasn't given the same rights and opportunities as most of us, early in life.

Hu assuming that most black people weren't literate by the end of the 1900's, is not only sad, but true.

Many of the freed slaves still worked as (practically) indentured servants at that point, and would for years afterward.

Assuming that a 60-70 year old black woman is illiterate, 20 years ago is not an illogical argument. She wouldn't have been given the education as a child.

America, as it is now, is not the country it has always been. Hu was just making reference (imo) to times long past, when people "of color" were still limited in their opportunities.

Blacks in this day are free to pursue whatever they they can achieve, and more power to them. I'm just saying it wasn't always this way in the good old USA.

I think Hu was just making a reference of what that time was like, not saying that's the way it should be now.

JMO,
Michael

 

[ShootingArts]

Thank You Ma'am!

I completely disagree. I am proud to say I am a friend of Hu's!

He is a great guy who I appreciate on the forums. He gives great advice and I value his opinion.

Thanks! Most of my friends just grab the popcorn and sit back to watch the show.

Hu

 

[ShootingArts]

Great Humor!

This is funny on so many levels that I am inclined to fire up my CNC router and cut it into a plaque to hang on the wall! I'd explain but like most jokes the humor is lost if you have to explain it.

Hu

Do you ever wonder why you have no friends? Do you ever wonder why you always seem left out? Are the holidays a really lonely time for you? Have you ever wondered why people avoid conversation with you? Take a good long look at your posts and try to read them through a normal persons eyes. Not through the eyes of an elitist that thinks they're right about everything. You're so worried about sounding sophisticated on this forum that you can't see when someone is busting your balls. Were you always picked last for kickball?

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Do you ever wonder why you have no friends? Do you ever wonder why you always seem left out? Are the holidays a really lonely time for you? Have you ever wondered why people avoid conversation with you? Take a good long look at your posts and try to read them through a normal persons eyes. Not through the eyes of an elitist that thinks they're right about everything. You're so worried about sounding sophisticated on this forum that you can't see when someone is busting your balls. Were you always picked last for kickball?

Ok, since you're still chomping at the bit.....

Let's hear from some of your friends. Anyone reading this want to jump in here and tell me how "ok" a guy bumpy here is?

Who will call him out for their kickball team or will they leave him twisting in the wind?

 

[cuejoey]

Seems to me if she should have done some homework. Besides why would he have had something like that just laying around the attic??

Get to know an old person say 80 or older you will see they have things in their attics garages ect from the old days that are now worth something as antiques...Many do not keep up with present day pricing...

 

[cuejoey]

The short of it is; The cue dealer is a thief, and, in editing this post, I'll add that bumpypickle and poolplayer2093 appear to have no ethics. A couple of other posters also appear to be pretty shady characters as they make mention of "it happens all the time" and this clearly implies that because it happens frequently we should think of it as being morally acceptable.

The thinking behind justifying a way of thinking or acting because it happens frequently is what has caused the lowering of morality in this country over the last 30 or so years. Because of the electronic media and it's ability to inform us of more events in the world, more people have been made aware of more of the larceny and dishonesty in the world and have used this increased awareness to justify their own greed or lust or other self-serving character defect they may have. The thinking often is; "Hey! They did it so I can too!".

What's that old saying... two wrongs don't make a right? Right?

Very well put Jim.........

 

[bumpypickle]

Screwing is all relative.

You're right the word "appraise" was not in the original post. You're right the woman sold it so **** her. But no, we ALL don't hope for a situation where we can screw someone.

Screwing someone is unethical no matter how you look at it. You can try and justify all you want to and it's still wrong. In some cases it's not legal.

You don't have to get top dollar for your things. But you shouldn't be lied to about the real value when you consult an "expert". It's an abuse of trust. Big deal, boo hoo, everyone should know their crap right? Yes I suppose they should.

I get swindled all the time because I didn't spend enough time to shop around or educate myself on what I am buying. Does that make it right that the sellers do that to me?

Let's reverse the situation and say it's a five year old kid who happens to have a $100 bill in their hands. You offer them a shiny brand new silver dollar for their $100 bill and they take it because they don't know the value of the bill is 100x the value of the coin. Is this right? Or should you take that opportunity to educate the child on the proper value and how to analyze an offer.

But whatever, you made your stance clear and that's cool. If you think it's cool to swindle someone then that's fine, no amount of examples are going to change your mind. I am sure if you and I were in the pool room you'd get one shot to hustle me out of some money and I'd probably fall for it.

At what dollar amount does the "screwing" end and the "cue dealer" begin? It's all relative as I originally posted. She got what she asked for and he made some $ from it but everyone was happy.

 

[s0lidz]

If you ask me (and you did), that is the same as walking into a blind person's house and taking all of their money. Unethical.

 

[poolpro]

This is an interesting thread.

As has already been stated. It is a little strange to find that almost EVERYONE on here feels that it is very cut and dried, and that you should always take the high road.

Everyone knows the unwritten code of gambling. Hustling is using your knowledge of the game to take advantage of another. This practice is widely accepted, encouraged, and bragged about among pool players.

I will say that MY personal rationalization for getting the better end of things is the fact that the mark has to take the bait. You cannot get hustled UNLESS you are greedy. The classic hustle is to downplay your ability to win and look like the mark yourself. If the real mark is not interested in some "easy money" he cannot get taken. Kind of instant karma. I used to actively seek out opportunities of this nature. Though, I would much rather have a real honest game for money than "steal" anymore. While I do not seek it out, I am not above giving a loud trash talking C or D player a game and " make it more interesting" too.


I do agree that in this specific situation it is pretty disgusting.

I am ALWAYS looking for a deal. I tend to do very well when buying and selling. I have a $2400 guitar that I bought from a pawnshop for $ 170 with the case to go with it. Was I wrong? I do not feel bad at all. I know they probably paid less than $100 for it. They made their money on me.

I also bought a very nice cue from a pawnshop. It is a one of a kind 4 pointer with ivory joint, butt cap and inlays. It has a predator shaft also. I paid a litlle more for it than what the shaft alone is worth. I tried to buy it for less. They originally wanted $600. Am I unethical?

By the way, I actually recognized the cue as previously being owned by a local player, who I did not know personally, but met one time before. I actually made phone calls to see if this cue was stolen. If it indeed was stolen and missing, I was going to make sure it got back to its original owner. I verified that the cues past owner was actively selling this and many other cues recently. I bought it about 10 seconds later.

Many times people have come to me asking what an item that I am knowledgeable is worth. I will often make them an offer to buy it. Many times I tell them " I will buy it for $x, it is worth more, sombody else may give you more for it, but I am only interested if I can get it for under $x". I do not lie to them. I explain that I am interested in getting as good of a deal as I can. I have told some it is worth twice what I am offering you, but I have cash right now at this price. This is how pawn shops stay in business. They openly let you know that they will NOT pay anywhere close to what an item is worth, BUT they WILL give you cash right this instant for it. They have the same item on the shelf for 3 times what they just offered to buy yours for, but they will not budge on their offer. Is this unethical? Can you be honest about being shady?:grin: I guess that is a matter of opinion.

I ALWAYS let people know I am interested in buying certain items. They know before contacting me, that I am a possible buyer of these items, and I have a better than average knowledge of them. I am not an appraiser, and have never taken a penny to appraise an item. I make offers on items. I am not a recognized expert, my opinion of an items value is NOT going to hold any weight to any real expert.


I have knowingly sold items for less than they are worth because I need the money more than I needed the item.


In the example given, I agree that the dealer was wrong. If he wants to stay in business it is a very bad idea to take advantage of a customer like that. He was called on as an expert. This is a distinction.

However, the woman KNEW he was an expert. Was he charging money to do an appraisal?I f not, than she was asking for a free service from an expert. The moment he made an offer to buy it, he became a potential buyer. She should know that if he just accepts the number she put out there without blinking, she should be careful.



After all of this evidence of people on here being 100% moral and not taking advantage, I would love to see what would happen if I put up a Dennis Searing cue for $500 how many people will say " I have to give you more" I bet it would be sold in less than 10 minutes.