Unethical Win at Swanee 2014

It is about character

Greg handled the situation with grace, he accepted his loss under the established rules without complaining, moaning or calling Chris out.

Chris handled the situation without grace and took a win in a match he lost.

For all the "it is only wrong if you get caught" folks there is no amount of posts and arguments that will ever get them to understand ethics and integrity so why bother.

I'm with Jadin on this one. My personal integrity is more important to me.
 
Just saying I don't agree with the rule........

Neil said:
I am thinking about it, and am amazed at your inability to see the obvious. That is, rules are in place, they are supposed to be followed, yet you feel you are above the rules, the rules hold the game back. The game will advance when YOU get to make up your own rules, and anyone that doesn't abide by THEM is a cheat!

You are right in that pool players need to "step up". They need to start acting like professionals and abide by the rules in place, not make up their own as they go along. And, I totally agree that is is the height of ignorance to think that you are allowed to violate any rule that you don't agree with and make up your own and then expect others to abide by your own set of rules.

Try reading the rules sometime Gene. It states that if you don't mark up your game, it is not a win. What part of that don't you seem to understand? If the two is sitting on the lip of the pocket, and I don't see it, and I then shoot the three and run down to the 9 and then see it. Do I then get to shoot the two before the nine and still get the win? Why not? It was just a little mistake. I realized it later, and still shot all the balls in, so I should get the win, right? It's the same thing, Gene. You just can't see it because you don't want to see it and think that rule doesn't need apply to you.

As to your stop sign scenario, the law clearly states how far back you are allowed to stop. You don't get to arbitrarily make up your own distance. Now, I don't know what the law is for where you were at. But, you don't get to say, hey, I did stop, just ten feet back. When the law states within 8 feet. If so, the next guy can argue 11 feet, and so on.

I really don't understand you guys that think you are free to toss out the rule book, and then in so doing, call others cheats, unethical, and holding pool back for following the rules. It's not a win if you don't mark it. So, you are wanting to count a non-win as a win. You want to call "cheater", then look in a mirror and do so. Then, you will be correct.
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Baseball they have replays now to see things that they might have gotten wrong.

Football has instant replay to make things right.

If the score keeper at a baseball game forgets to mark up the score and the team doesn't notice the mistake until 2 innings later maybe they shouldn't get the run.

In baseball with a tie game. The player hits a home run in the last inning. He still has to touch the bases and touch home to finalize the win or they are still tied.

If you forget to mark up your last game do you still win.

We just assume it's over so it is.

Pool is getting better than it ever was before. Football, baseball. soccer. and many other sports are making things better with new rules.

Some of these sports took a long time to step out of the stone ages. It's easy to just leave things the way they were.

In football until they started to protect the quarterback the defense almost had a license to kill and maim.

The pros with bonus ball have people keeping score. Sometimes a player in the heat of the battle and focus might not mark the score right. The score needs to be right. Not to much and not to little.

Can you imagine how many mistakes there would be with bonus ball if the players tried to mark their own score after each inning.

Kind of foolish to think it could be that way.

I'm just saying we need a little common sense to polish up the rules on these gray areas a little bit.
 
It doesn't matter what the rules state there will always be the self righteous
people who claim to know better and think they are all important.

A sad state for mankind.
 
joelpope said:
Greg handled the situation with grace, he accepted his loss under the established rules without complaining, moaning or calling Chris out.

Chris handled the situation without grace and took a win in a match he lost.

For all the "it is only wrong if you get caught" folks there is no amount of posts and arguments that will ever get them to understand ethics and integrity so why bother.

I'm with Jadin on this one. My personal integrity is more important to me.
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It's sort of funny how this exact debate could be had in the world of golf, but in that world, everybody would come down on the other side.

If someone failed to mark THEIR score properly not only would they not complain about it. They would NOT even consider asking to have their score sheet adjusted. They would most likely be disqualified from the tournament and the only thing they would say about it would be - "It was my fault".

That's integrity.

What you're talking about is something else.
 
It's important to note here that I am not calling into question Greg's actions - he very well may have owned up to his mistake and understood it was his fault. Just because he was the bigger man here doesn't mean he needed to be.

Those of you claiming that "it's in the rules" look at things in black and white. You are ending the discussion before it even begins. Think outside the "technical" and what's written; think about integrity and respect. If you have a hard time thinking in those terms, think to yourself, "what would my mother say about this?" And apparently Chris' mother felt that it was necessary to let him know that Greg had another game.

We may not have evidence at the moment, but it was witnessed by hundreds, and confirmed by a 3rd party, Pool-Trax. I truly believe Greg manned up and took the loss without a fight, but he shouldn't have had to make that decision. It's one thing to forget to mark a game; it's quite another to know that your opponent forgot, even after the match, and not given him the rightful win.
 
Neil said:
So, if the match is being filmed, and one guy accidentally touches a ball in all ball fouls format, but the ref and the opponent don't see it, and the shooter doesn't even realize that he did it, but someone in the audience does see it, is it that then the ref should go back several games and replay that game as it was with the opponent now getting ball in hand?

The scenario you posted with Dennis and Mika is not the same thing. You stated that the ref stated that he forgot to mark his LAST game, not a game several games ago. And, I feel the ref was remiss in what he did. His job is call fouls, he is not allowed to warn a player that he is about to commit a rules violation. While it seems nice that the ref did what he did, it was the wrong thing to do going by the actual rules he was supposed to be enforcing. That is no different than the ref warning you that you are about to shoot the wrong ball. Very unprofessional of him to do so.
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The call in the finals was done by the tournament director and not the ref so it's his call to direct the tournament as he sees fit.
 
I'll tell you this much. I'm as honest as you or anyone else
You group everyone who disagrees with you as if they don't have morals . I am a dad who has raised 2 great kids with the same woman. Now that's something to keep score by. Joel... You got balls grouping people who disagree with your point of view and no amount of post will take back the ignorance of that post
 
joelpope said:
Greg handled the situation with grace, he accepted his loss under the established rules without complaining, moaning or calling Chris out.

Chris handled the situation without grace and took a win in a match he lost.

For all the "it is only wrong if you get caught" folks there is no amount of posts and arguments that will ever get them to understand ethics and integrity so why bother.

I'm with Jadin on this one. My personal integrity is more important to me.
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If this quote from another thread is an example of your personal intergrity, I am glad I am lacking.

"the young kid decided to be a #$#% & take the win... at least he declared his status early in life so people know what he is all about

must have really made his mother proud... if I was her I would have left him there and gone home
 
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SkyscraperChris said:
It's important to note here that I am not calling into question Greg's actions - he very well may have owned up to his mistake and understood it was his fault. Just because he was the bigger man here doesn't mean he needed to be.

Those of you claiming that "it's in the rules" look at things in black and white. You are ending the discussion before it even begins. Think outside the "technical" and what's written; think about integrity and respect. If you have a hard time thinking in those terms, think to yourself, "what would my mother say about this?" And apparently Chris' mother felt that it was necessary to let him know that Greg had another game.

We may not have evidence at the moment, but it was witnessed by hundreds, and confirmed by a 3rd party, Pool-Trax. I truly believe Greg manned up and took the loss without a fight, but he shouldn't have had to make that decision. It's one thing to forget to mark a game; it's quite another to know that your opponent forgot, even after the match, and not given him the rightful win.
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Sure, let's...

Let's talk about going onto an Internet forum to judge and condemn a 16 year old kid who followed the rules.

:thumbup: for integrity and respect!
 
SkyscraperChris said:
Think outside the "technical" and what's written; think about integrity and respect. If you have a hard time thinking in those terms, think to yourself, "what would my mother say about this?" And apparently Chris' mother felt that it was necessary to let him know that Greg had another game.
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From what I understand, Chris' mother didn't know Greg had won the game. In her text to Chris she asked, "Did you lose the match?", meaning she wasn't sure. Chris wasnt either.
 
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Am I the only one that finds the humor in the fact that a player's mom was involved in a dispute at a pool tournament? And pool can't shake the stigma of outlaw degeneracy that surrounds it? :rolleyes:

Anyone that knows me from the debates on pattern racking racking etc. knows where I stand on the importance of integrity and honor in the game. IF Chris had noticed the error at the time and chose to keep mum about it to in effect get a game on the wire, shame on him.

Assuming that when the issue came to light it was news to both players, the situation is a little murkier. Suppose someone had come up at hill-hill and informed the players that the foul that occurred 5 games ago that gave one player BIH on a 9 hanging in the corner really wasn't a foul because a ball did in fact catch a rail after contact? There is the possibility that Chris, thinking that the score was correct, played a shot or two differently than he would have had he known his opponent was on the hill. There is also the problem that the error was not brought to light by any official scoring source. So the supposed "correct" score might also not be correct. Sure, even Chris' mom was one who felt Greg didn't mark his game but hell, when I was 15 my mom was wrong about everything. :grin-square: Ultimately it seems neither player argued the facts and the TD was presented with the situation and made a ruling, which both players accepted it. There is some importance to the TD being able to take a stand and have it be the final resolution, or else open up a can of worms in other situations where something like this comes up. At what point can you go back and change things? Say the error came up 10 minutes later after either Chris or Greg had started their next matches? When is life created - at birth or conception?

Another thing that is interesting was how a similar situation was handled when it came up in the final, where it was discovered after the fact that Dennis had not marked a game. Dennis was awarded the game retroactively. Neither Dennis nor Mika argued the ruling. Now the question that was never brought up in the stream commentating or the chat was why, if the TD did not grant Greg his game earlier, he did grant Dennis his unmarked game in essentially the same situation? While this wasn't discussed, I know Dave Hemmah to be an honorable guy and I can only assume that the reason he granted Dennis his unmarked game was because since it was the final he was present and overseeing the match directly, not the same situation that occurred earlier. But how come we're not wondering if Mika knew all along and was just hoping to use Dennis' oversight to his advantage? Because without knowing otherwise we of course give him the benefit of the doubt, that's why.

Again, giving Chris the benefit of the doubt, this was just a lose-lose situation for both players the way it played out. Had the TD ruled in Greg's favor or Chris forfeited, we would be having the corollary debate about Greg's ethics for accepting the win when he knew in his heart he had been asleep at the switch and F'd up. So I have to feel bad for both players assuming Chris' heart about this is pure.

Speaking of integrity and honor, I know I can't be the only one that figures if the ruling had gone in Greg's favor that some player somewhere at some point in time will instigate this same situation to intentionally shark their opponent at hill-hill.
 
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'I'm just saying we need a little common sense to polish up the rules on these gray areas a little bit.

What grey area? If you sleep on it and the next game is finished then you remember
you don't get the game, period. No grey area.

In golf if you don't sign your score card, guess what YOU LOSE, to bad.
As it's the players responsibility, you don't hear people saying the guy who won is
unethical or unsportsmanlike.

People on here need to grow up you don't get to be irresponsible not follow the rules
whatever rule it might be (like it or not) and then try to lay it off on your opponent.

Golfers probably the most ethical sport there is, would laugh the arguments on here
right off the forum. He forgot to mark his score he pays for it. NO GREY AREA

Want to elevate this sport follow the rules, don't be lax or lazy and expect someone else to look out for you. Act Professional you'll be looked at as a Professional.
 
genomachino said:
Baseball they have replays now to see things that they might have gotten wrong.

Football has instant replay to make things right.

If the score keeper at a baseball game forgets to mark up the score and the team doesn't notice the mistake until 2 innings later maybe they shouldn't get the run.

In baseball with a tie game. The player hits a home run in the last inning. He still has to touch the bases and touch home to finalize the win or they are still tied.

If you forget to mark up your last game do you still win.

We just assume it's over so it is.

Pool is getting better than it ever was before. Football, baseball. soccer. and many other sports are making things better with new rules.

Some of these sports took a long time to step out of the stone ages. It's easy to just leave things the way they were.

In football until they started to protect the quarterback the defense almost had a license to kill and maim.

The pros with bonus ball have people keeping score. Sometimes a player in the heat of the battle and focus might not mark the score right. The score needs to be right. Not to much and not to little.

Can you imagine how many mistakes there would be with bonus ball if the players tried to mark their own score after each inning.

Kind of foolish to think it could be that way.

I'm just saying we need a little common sense to polish up the rules on these gray areas a little bit.
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Maybe you should re-read your two posts- they contradict each other quite a bit. As someone else stated, in golf, which many of you hold in the highest regard as far as rules, if you make a mistake on your score, you are disqualified, period. Guess they are all just a buch of cheaters too.....
 
mcsock said:
If this quote from another thread is an example of your personal intergrity, I am glad I am lacking.

"the young kid decided to be a piece of shit & take the win... at least he declared his status early in life so people know what he is all about

must have really made his mother proud... if I was her I would have left him there and gone home
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to come on here and call a kid a piece of shit is wrong
 
I think this has been blown out of proportion.

I will explain my side to clear things up.

I arrived to the "TV" table first. since there needs to be more lighting for the cameras the score beads are not above the lights they are above the table where the players sit.

I sit at one side of the table and Chris arrives shortly after and takes the other seat. above each players seat are the score beads, Chris wins the first game and marks his game over my seat. I thought it was odd but one set of beads is white and the other are orange maybe he wanted white.

at 2-2- I win the game and Chris marks my game for me while i was racking.

score is now 3-2. I win a game and break and run the next. and I only marked 1 game.

score says 4-2 (5-2 is the actual score)

it goes 6-5 (7-5) and the commentators are informed that the score is wrong. I can hear them saying something that like" Gregs unaware of that" i figured it had to do with the pool game itself.

at 6-6 (7-6) my opponent takes a break I go to get a water and am informed about my score being wrong. a couple people had been trying to get my attention in the stands by waving their arms earlier but I was focused on my match and did not notice.

after knowing this I go to the back of the room to speak to the tournament director. i explain what happened and that it has been confirmed by pool-trax and everyone watching online and in the stands knew. and there was video proof. I was told that because it was so many games ago that it would not count.

Obviously this news sucked for me and there is no rule about your game not counting if you dont mark it, i see it all the time at tournaments, someone forgets to mark a game and a game or two passes and the player is informed by someone in the stands and they correct it.

I saw no point in making a big deal of it in front of everyone. I would only be upset and most likely still be forced to shoot a hill hill game. When i return to the table I hear people from the stands telling Chris to not let them count my game as a win. I sat down and waited for him to break, I lose the game

after Chris's parents come and say they felt bad and that I won the match. and tell me everyone in the stands knew the score.

Chris's mother gave him the choice to give me the match or take the win himself, he was having trouble deciding and I could tell he wanted to take the win so i told him if he didnt want to give me the match we could play 1 more hill hill game as it was now 7-7. he eventually said no he would take the win. I go to the back to collect my winnings and 5 minutres later someone from Chris's side gets me and says they are looking for me to play one last game apparently Chris changed his mind. When i return to the front his mom is there and Chris is outside. I wait around and someone comes back and tells me he changed his mind again and was going to take the win.

Chris had told everyone he was unaware of the score being wrong until it was 6-6 (7-6)

After I leave the tournament I found out that Chris's mom had texted him during our match telling him what happened. I remember this because during our match I was shooting at the table and heard it go off. and even thought why didnt he silence his phone like me? later I saw him checking his phone but maybe he wasnt reading the message he couldve been silencing his phone or something i dont know.

I applaud Chris's mother for trying to inform him the score was wrong and I believe she was the reason he had changed his mind and agreed to shooting out a 7-7 game. before changing his mind again.

What I dont get is why I was not informed by POV Pool once it came to their attention and had been confirmed. I was informed because they are just filming and commentating the match they are bias and have no say so. I have heard plenty of times on streams the commentators will inform the players if they forget to mark a game.

I think the decent thing to do was when they found out was to inform me after all they are the reason the score beads are not int he right spot and i have to play on this super tight 3 7/8" pocket table while constantly hearing what they are saying while shooting.

I remember when i was up 6-5 I was on the 4 ball and It was a long shot down the rail a 90% shot i make it.The other balls (5679) are all in front of the holes and before I pull the trigger i hear the commentator say "Well if Greg makes this the match is over" I dog the ball. Im not saying I missed it because of them but seriously I dont want to hear that half a second before i shoot the shot, i already know if i make it i win.

POV please invest in a Plexi glass sound barrier. all commentators use them when commentating so close to the match as it deflects the sound waves from going out towards the players. I know you guys have received plenty of complaints from players hearing you guys commentate. It cost $40 to make one from home depot. I will even buy it if need be.


All in all I lost because i forgot to mark a game which is completely my own fault.
this situation is already in the past and I am not going to think about it anymore.

nothing should be blamed on Chris

Just wanted to set the record straight of what happened.

FLAME ON AZ
 
BasementDweller said:
It's sort of funny how this exact debate could be had in the world of golf, but in that world, everybody would come down on the other side.

If someone failed to mark THEIR score properly not only would they not complain about it. They would NOT even consider asking to have their score sheet adjusted. They would most likely be disqualified from the tournament and the only thing they would say about it would be - "It was my fault".

That's integrity.

What you're talking about is something else.
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No, it is exactly the golf mentality I am speaking of

In golf you are expected to call a foul on yourself or mark penalty strokes on your scorecard. Ironically, in golf Greg would be disqualified for submitting a 7-6 loss because he had knowledge that it was the wrong score.

I also believe a player can be disqualified for witnessing an infraction and not reporting it but I'm not 100% on that rule.

I watched the whole match and following drama live yesterday and specifically remember hearing the co-commentator who is the owner of Chris' home room saying that he knew Chris well and that if Greg had failed to mark a win then Chris would step up and "do the right thing" because he was a quality young man... Oops
 
If Greg knew about his plight at hill-hill, he should have addressed it then. Once the last rack was broken, he can't wait to see if he wins or not then go to the tourney director.
 
I mentioned this yesterday on the chat while the whole fiasco was going on.

For those of you saying Chris should have "done the right thing" and given Greg the match after learning Greg had won 7 games before he did....

if I had been the tournament director and Chris had tried to do that - NEITHER would be moving on to the next round. Greg lost because he forgot to mark a game, and his opponent got to 7 in the match. Chris has every right to feel bad about the outcome after the match is over, and TRY to say Greg should move on, but at that point it is no longer his call - AT ALL!!!!!

The rules should be followed. All those saying Chris' character is now in question....fine, you can decide not to abide by whatever rules you want, but I sure as hell would call you on the ones you decide are beneath you and you disregard. If you want to pack up and go home in Chris' situation, go ahead, but it would be a sweet BYE for the next round for someone, not a match against Greg, at least if I had a say.....
 
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