Unethical Win at Swanee 2014
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Thats the point I was trying to make, I pulled that quote out of another thread about this issue. Calling any 16year old kid anything off color on a public forum is wrong. I know Chris, I play with him 2-3 times a week. I might call tease him while playing but he is a stand up kid.
Read post #96. Greg went to the TD at 6-6(7-6) prior to the lasr break and the TD said it was too late for score adjustments.
Chris' score was right.
Greg's score was wrong.
You watched the match and I didn't but I think you have to strip all of the emotion out of it and just figure out what's the best way to handle these situations. If I was the tournament director it would be very simple. I would encourage fair play and I would expect each player to pay attention to the score. But if a rack is missed and you are several racks past it and you are nearing the finish line - there would be NO going back and correcting the score. It could and would completely change the dynamic of the entire match.
Now we find out that Greg discovered what was going on at 6-6. So, he was hoping that his opponent would give him this lost rack. I think that's the wrong direction to go.
The simplest rule for these scenarios is "You snooze you lose." You should have one rack to correct the score. That's it.
It's that simple really. All the other talk about integrity, ethics, and morals (by everyone involved) is misguided. It is sounding much more like self-righteousness.
I think the game it was noticed on makes all the difference. If score was only 5-5 then I would have no problem letting them get their rightfully won game and make it 6-5 them. I think they have to win their hill game KNOWING its their hill game otherwise it totally changes the match. The first and last game are the toughest to win, or so I've heard not got to the hill so...
Classy post, I was at H.T. and till match was over and didnt not know about the issue. You handled it well there also, a lot would have had a melt down.
Class act:grin:
Greg Harada's side of the story.
Thanks for posting. You learned a lesson. Like a preshot routine, there should be a after the win....move the bead before breaking routine. I am glad that some of the sweaters tried to tell you but you didn't hear them.
Thanks for posting. You learned a lesson. Like a preshot routine, there should be a after the win....move the bead before breaking routine. I am glad that some of the sweaters tried to tell you but you didn't hear them.
I don't see what the problem is from either side. Its your job to put your score up if you forget trying to put it up 5 games later is always going to be a dicey situation. Being me if I had noticed someone did not put a game up i would have reminded him.
While the kids mother was trying to help by sending a text she should have stayed out of it. The fact that she stuck her nose in made it harder for the kid.
I think 2 seasoned Pros would have either A said snooze you lose, or B allowed for the guy to take the game and the win
While the kids mother was trying to help by sending a text she should have stayed out of it. The fact that she stuck her nose in made it harder for the kid.
I think 2 seasoned Pros would have either A said snooze you lose, or B allowed for the guy to take the game and the win
Funny how no one can argue with this!
The BIG ASSUMPTION is that the games would have played out the same way if the score was marked properly.
I was thinking the same thing!:thumbup:
The marked score can have an effect on both players. Perhaps Greg would have felt some nerves had he thought he was on the hill.
I have had my opponent remind me twice and then wish me luck when I got on the hill. Hmmmm maybe he thought it would put pressure on me.
As to behaving ethically with regard to slept games. I was playing in the finals of a tournament that paid $700 for first and a race to 7. When I thought the score was 5-5 it showed 5-4 my favor. I was not sure as I was feeling lots of pressure at that point. After breaking which by the rules made it the score, my opponent came to me and said, "I thought I should have 5." I said, "that is what I thought so mark it." Had they waited a game or two, I might have just shrugged.
In this case no one behaved unethically and to try and go back and rewrite history would be wrong.
This is a tough one all around. It was a combination of factors that led to this uncomfortable outcome. All of them have been discussed here already. The kid was put on the spot when he realized what had happened and he so wanted the win that he may well have lost sight of the bigger picture here.
I've seen in a major tennis match when there is a bad call the opponent concede the next point. That shows class to me. For me the jury is still out on the behavior of a 16 year boy. I think it is up to us as adults (particularly those who are close to him) to guide him in ethical behavior. I suspect he is a good kid, very new to the tournament scene and to put pressure on him in a situation like this is a little unfair. What kid wouldn't want a win?
I also feel that TD Dave Hemmah did the best he could with a bad situation. Sometimes there are gray areas where a TD must act in the best interest of the game and I believe Dave did here. Greg is by far the more experienced of the two players and for that I put the most responsibility for this mistake squarely on his shoulders. If I "snooze" a foul by my opponent in a One Pocket match and forget to spot a ball, I damn sure can't bring it up after he has eight balls. Greg snoozed a game and protesting after the match is a case of "too little, too late" imo.
I give the kid a pass on this one and would probably do the same for an adult. The time to make a correction on the match score was much earlier in the match, not at 6-6. If the scoring error had happened a game or two before, then everything is entirely different. This type of mistake has happened before in tournaments that I've worked, and if it is caught quickly we correct it. But if the match ends or is hill-hill that is too late.
Either way, tough call and no "winner" here whatever the result. As for me I'm glad to see young kids getting into pool tourneys and I was happy to see several of them at the Swanee. I will do my best to support and encourage them in our sport, without putting any undue pressure on them. One of his mentors in Ventura is Jerry Matchin, a friend of mine for decades. He told me that this young man is a good kid and that's good enough for me.
I've seen in a major tennis match when there is a bad call the opponent concede the next point. That shows class to me. For me the jury is still out on the behavior of a 16 year boy. I think it is up to us as adults (particularly those who are close to him) to guide him in ethical behavior. I suspect he is a good kid, very new to the tournament scene and to put pressure on him in a situation like this is a little unfair. What kid wouldn't want a win?
I also feel that TD Dave Hemmah did the best he could with a bad situation. Sometimes there are gray areas where a TD must act in the best interest of the game and I believe Dave did here. Greg is by far the more experienced of the two players and for that I put the most responsibility for this mistake squarely on his shoulders. If I "snooze" a foul by my opponent in a One Pocket match and forget to spot a ball, I damn sure can't bring it up after he has eight balls. Greg snoozed a game and protesting after the match is a case of "too little, too late" imo.
I give the kid a pass on this one and would probably do the same for an adult. The time to make a correction on the match score was much earlier in the match, not at 6-6. If the scoring error had happened a game or two before, then everything is entirely different. This type of mistake has happened before in tournaments that I've worked, and if it is caught quickly we correct it. But if the match ends or is hill-hill that is too late.
Either way, tough call and no "winner" here whatever the result. As for me I'm glad to see young kids getting into pool tourneys and I was happy to see several of them at the Swanee. I will do my best to support and encourage them in our sport, without putting any undue pressure on them. One of his mentors in Ventura is Jerry Matchin, a friend of mine for decades. He told me that this young man is a good kid and that's good enough for me.
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"after knowing this I go to the back of the room to speak to the tournament director. i explain what happened and that it has been confirmed by pool-trax and everyone watching online and in the stands knew. and there was video proof. I was told that because it was so many games ago that it would not count."
The decision was made by the people in charge and that should be the end of it. If anyone thinks it was a bad call then address the decision makers some more but for anyone to make a claim that it is the opponents responsibility to correct what they feel is an error in the tournament directors decision is grasping at straws imo.
Does a fighter ask his opponent to "do the right thing" and give him the victory when the judges clearly award the wrong guy the victory? In the NBA, sometimes there are games that end on a game deciding bad call by the referee, is there an outcry for winning team to decline the win based on "doing the right thing"?
The decision was made by the tournament director and after that there should have been no pressure put on Chris to correct what some feel was a wrong decision or there should be no chastising Chris for not "doing the right thing".
The decision was made by the people in charge and that should be the end of it. If anyone thinks it was a bad call then address the decision makers some more but for anyone to make a claim that it is the opponents responsibility to correct what they feel is an error in the tournament directors decision is grasping at straws imo.
Does a fighter ask his opponent to "do the right thing" and give him the victory when the judges clearly award the wrong guy the victory? In the NBA, sometimes there are games that end on a game deciding bad call by the referee, is there an outcry for winning team to decline the win based on "doing the right thing"?
The decision was made by the tournament director and after that there should have been no pressure put on Chris to correct what some feel was a wrong decision or there should be no chastising Chris for not "doing the right thing".
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Unethical Win
It has been said many times that the two toughest games to win are the first game and the last game. Not knowing you are on 6 (thinking you are on 5) will make the game a little easier to win.
The fair thing to do is play the game over when the player knows he is on the hill (at 6 - 5 for example). However if I would of been the opponent and found out he actually had 7 wins (not knowing before hand) I would allowed him the win.
If I knew he forgot to mark up a game I would of told him immediately. Hard to believe that both players didn't realize this. I'm always looking at the score after each game.
It has been said many times that the two toughest games to win are the first game and the last game. Not knowing you are on 6 (thinking you are on 5) will make the game a little easier to win.
The fair thing to do is play the game over when the player knows he is on the hill (at 6 - 5 for example). However if I would of been the opponent and found out he actually had 7 wins (not knowing before hand) I would allowed him the win.
If I knew he forgot to mark up a game I would of told him immediately. Hard to believe that both players didn't realize this. I'm always looking at the score after each game.
Jay,
I brought this up earlier, but could you give me your opinion on the spectators and commentators alerting the players during the match? Personally I believe the match is between two players and nobody except a recognized official has any business contributing to the outcome of the match.
takeitdown
Banned
After reading Greg's post I gotta go with this response. People on the rail; moms, spectators, streamers and railbirds are not involved and did right to bite their tounges. At 6-6 its way too late to mark what was his 3rd or 4th game. To put it on the kid to make it right is just plain wrong.
LOL... yes, 16yr olds are just fake people... not real.
:grin-square:
IMO. You are responsible for your score, tourney or action. You didnt move it, that's on you. Dont wait until 2 games later when it's over to say you won.
Whether your opponent has been keeping track or the audience or whoever shouldnt matter. That match is between you and your opponent. I would hope that most spectators wouldnt get involved.
Whether your opponent has been keeping track or the audience or whoever shouldnt matter. That match is between you and your opponent. I would hope that most spectators wouldnt get involved.
This! Im sure this isnt either players first rodeo either. The one that didnt move the bead should know better then argue it at the end.
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Thanks for this good question. As a TD I will avail myself of every tool at my disposal to make the correct call. I can't tell you how many times we have relied on a "streamer" to replay a shot to watch a hit again. Same for the match game score. If an error was brought to my attention by a spectator or commentator, and the "streamer" had verified proof of that I would definitely use that information in making my decision.
That said I do not put the responsibility for an error during the course of the match being brought to my attention by anyone other than the players. If a streamer or commentator decides to tell me then I will intervene. That is entirely their decision whether they do or don't tell me. Some will and some won't, just like spectators. Often times, a spectator will be the one to inform a player of something wrong that happened during the course of a match. If it is then brought to my attention by the player I will make a ruling based on what I can determine took place.
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So your saying in the wild wild west in a game of cards if a guy calls his cards wrong and a guy takes the pot he will get shot ,,,, I hardly think so
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