Using draw causes more misses?
- Thread starter scottjen26
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I really hope that was a typo, although O and C aren't exactly beside each other. I'm done. Trying to have a civil conversation around here is impossible.
It was a typo.
Cyndi says she gets draw on the ball about 40% of the time, but its her leave that ends up getting her #$*^d.
A rail shot shot on angle, throws just like any other shot on angle.
you could use draw alone on the shot, but you've still got to compensate for throw... and that is going to mess with your head if you're a new shooter.
A rail shot shot on angle, throws just like any other shot on angle.
you could use draw alone on the shot, but you've still got to compensate for throw... and that is going to mess with your head if you're a new shooter.
Not to disagree Scott but, I believe that acceleration is the rate of change in velocity per unit of time and that velocity is the speed of an object in a given direction.
Agreed on all points except: I seem to recall it being studied and concluded that time of contact doesn't change based on speed.
Haha I like this guy. A little in the dark...but very funny.
Agreed. Loading up the power on a draw shot is actually going to hinder your progress. I learned that many many moons ago watching Buddy Hall's instructional video. He was basically shooting a ball near the corner pocket from about the 2nd point up at the other end of the table. He was straight in and needed to come back to where he was for the 9. The only way to get there was to draw. He's almost a full table length away from the ball and it seemed like he just tickled it. His stroke was so smooth and controlled and had very little "power". That cueball whipped back up that table like it was programmed to do that. I practiced my draw shot over and over after that. Buddy is a God.
MULLY
I believe that Buddy has the smoothest stroke of anyone I've ever seen. The movement and power he can get out of the ball is just sick. Us mere mortals can only hope to get half of what he can out of our stroke.
It is much more important to be sure that you hit the correct spot on the cue ball than to apply power. What most people can't tell is where exactly the tip touches the CB on the hit. You guys have probably heard this a lot "I hit it so hard but it just wont' come back!!"
Anyways, I'm interested in knowing the amount of squirt when using follow and draw. Would hitting the top of the cue ball cause more squirt than hitting low? No shot is perfectly on the vertical axis so there will be SOME sort of squirt, but usually unnoticeable when shot well.
I believe that striking slightly below center provides the best accuracy and it has something to do with the low amount of squirt even when you hit it slightly badly.
Anyways, I'm interested in knowing the amount of squirt when using follow and draw. Would hitting the top of the cue ball cause more squirt than hitting low? No shot is perfectly on the vertical axis so there will be SOME sort of squirt, but usually unnoticeable when shot well.
I believe that striking slightly below center provides the best accuracy and it has something to do with the low amount of squirt even when you hit it slightly badly.
I don't know
This discussion, and most other technical spheroid physics discussions, just affirms that I don't know what it is that I don't know.
How did you hit that? I don't know.
How did that happen? I don't know.
Is it your shot? I don't know.
Others will tell you what you don't know, because either they know, or because they know that you don't know-anyway.
Knowing is fine. Not knowing is fine. It's thinking you know that gets you in trouble.
People here know stuff. Just not me. Fortunately-they share.
I do know it's time for another beer.
This discussion, and most other technical spheroid physics discussions, just affirms that I don't know what it is that I don't know.
How did you hit that? I don't know.
How did that happen? I don't know.
Is it your shot? I don't know.
Others will tell you what you don't know, because either they know, or because they know that you don't know-anyway.
Knowing is fine. Not knowing is fine. It's thinking you know that gets you in trouble.
People here know stuff. Just not me. Fortunately-they share.
I do know it's time for another beer.
For all practical purposes, I agree. Technically speaking, that would depend on the precision of your measurement device.
Friction will play a much bigger role on the table, no question about that. That is why Semih Sayginer rubs his balls with silicon spray before doing his tricks. Can't believe I said that lol :embarrassed2:
I see a couple of factors there.
Speed: Follow shots are often played a lot softer than draw shots. If the cue ball hits an object ball near the cushion with less speed, even if it touches a rail on the way to the pocket, the amount of english it takes on will be less. On a right cushion the ball will pick up left english, which will make it rattle in the pocket instead of sending it in.
Throw: The more top or bottom spin the cue ball has at impact, the less throw you will get (and the less you will send the cue ball into the cushion accidentally). At stun shot speed, throw is at a maximum. So any unintended throw or english effects will show at a maximum at stun shot speed. Now stun shot speed can also happen if you *think* you execute a draw shot, but since you also add a little bit of english, you're hitting higher and the reverse spin in effect is lost until the cue ball reaches the object ball, without you really noticing it.
On the other hand, if you play follow, there's not too much you can do wrong, because the cue ball picks up natural follow on its path sooner or later anyway.
Therefore it is usually easier to pot an object ball close to the rail with natural roll, because you execute a controlled, soft shot with little side effects like throw or swerve.
If your draw shot is decent enough to be as soft as is sufficient to deliver the proper amount of reverse spin to the cue ball (upon impact with the object ball near the rail), you're better off. But it's still more difficult to control running english to avoid the side cushion with a draw shot than with rolling a follow shot.
These effects may even differ between two different shafts, as the cue ball squirt which is produced by the shaft can "mask" the effects of spin induced throw, as at the same time the contact point between cue ball and object ball will shift to the opposite direction of the spin.
So on long stun shots with "running english" you may find it more difficult to fine tune the resulting direction of the object ball, since the counteracting effects of cue ball squirt are minimized. Even more, your cue ball will swerve on those shots. Swerve "overacts", from an object ball's point of view, in the same direction as spin induced throw. If you're applying right english, you will most likely hit the objectball ball further right than you intended, sending it even more left as your spin induced throw does anyway. This effect can be dramatically seen on long shots with stun speed from low squirt ("low deflection") shafts.
If you don't want to care about all of this, play a soft follow shot and you should be all set. I think that's what people mean, if they say "You just can't draw them on this table ..."
Regards
Gwenn
Speed: Follow shots are often played a lot softer than draw shots. If the cue ball hits an object ball near the cushion with less speed, even if it touches a rail on the way to the pocket, the amount of english it takes on will be less. On a right cushion the ball will pick up left english, which will make it rattle in the pocket instead of sending it in.
Throw: The more top or bottom spin the cue ball has at impact, the less throw you will get (and the less you will send the cue ball into the cushion accidentally). At stun shot speed, throw is at a maximum. So any unintended throw or english effects will show at a maximum at stun shot speed. Now stun shot speed can also happen if you *think* you execute a draw shot, but since you also add a little bit of english, you're hitting higher and the reverse spin in effect is lost until the cue ball reaches the object ball, without you really noticing it.
On the other hand, if you play follow, there's not too much you can do wrong, because the cue ball picks up natural follow on its path sooner or later anyway.
Therefore it is usually easier to pot an object ball close to the rail with natural roll, because you execute a controlled, soft shot with little side effects like throw or swerve.
If your draw shot is decent enough to be as soft as is sufficient to deliver the proper amount of reverse spin to the cue ball (upon impact with the object ball near the rail), you're better off. But it's still more difficult to control running english to avoid the side cushion with a draw shot than with rolling a follow shot.
These effects may even differ between two different shafts, as the cue ball squirt which is produced by the shaft can "mask" the effects of spin induced throw, as at the same time the contact point between cue ball and object ball will shift to the opposite direction of the spin.
So on long stun shots with "running english" you may find it more difficult to fine tune the resulting direction of the object ball, since the counteracting effects of cue ball squirt are minimized. Even more, your cue ball will swerve on those shots. Swerve "overacts", from an object ball's point of view, in the same direction as spin induced throw. If you're applying right english, you will most likely hit the objectball ball further right than you intended, sending it even more left as your spin induced throw does anyway. This effect can be dramatically seen on long shots with stun speed from low squirt ("low deflection") shafts.
If you don't want to care about all of this, play a soft follow shot and you should be all set. I think that's what people mean, if they say "You just can't draw them on this table ..."
Regards
Gwenn
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A few points....
If you are going to move the cue ball a few diamonds with draw or follow, you usually have to hit the cue ball a lot harder for the draw shot. That's because it will lose draw on the way to the object ball but it doesn't lose follow. Harder usually means with less accuracy.
A small amount of draw will be transferred to the object ball. That's usually negligible. An object ball with full rolling follow will usually go into the pocket easier than a sliding object ball, but draw is a bad way to get object ball follow for this purpose -- it's better to hit the ball softly.
Draw can multiply the effective side spin on the cue ball and if the spin is unintended it might be more of a problem than with a follow shot that is hit slightly off center.
Old cloth is hard to draw on and the pockets are usually less forgiving.
Old cue balls are easier to draw as they are worn down and smaller than the object balls.
If you are going to move the cue ball a few diamonds with draw or follow, you usually have to hit the cue ball a lot harder for the draw shot. That's because it will lose draw on the way to the object ball but it doesn't lose follow. Harder usually means with less accuracy.
A small amount of draw will be transferred to the object ball. That's usually negligible. An object ball with full rolling follow will usually go into the pocket easier than a sliding object ball, but draw is a bad way to get object ball follow for this purpose -- it's better to hit the ball softly.
Draw can multiply the effective side spin on the cue ball and if the spin is unintended it might be more of a problem than with a follow shot that is hit slightly off center.
Old cloth is hard to draw on and the pockets are usually less forgiving.
Old cue balls are easier to draw as they are worn down and smaller than the object balls.
Though you do need the power on occasion, especially on old sticky cloth, this is a good point.
In theory, when hitting off to the side of the vertical center-axis of the cueball, you get the same amount of sideways squirt whether hitting above, below, or right on the horizontal center-axis. In other words, follow or draw doesn't reduce or amplify it. In addition, with follow or draw, you get a vertical component of squirt, either downward or upward, respectively.
Draw and follow have a significant effect on swerve, however. With draw, the curve the cueball traverses is more gradual and open than with follow, (i.e., it may appear to not "take hold" as fast). These differences in swerve can make it appear that squirt is affected, though, in principle, it isn't.
Jim
Well I agree with you.
I don't know specifically about what speed the OP is speaking, but firm draw will over spin the OB and if not hit cleanly will tend to make it want to run up the backside of the pocket. Sometimes if the OB hits the inside of the pocket, the combination of over spin and forward momentum will keep the OB high in the pocket and spit it out.A firm follow stroke, on the other hand, will impart some backspin on the OB and it will want to dive into the pocket off the backside of the pocket. Not unlike shooting a foul shot in basketball with some backspin off your finger tips, the basketball dives down after contact with the backboard.
All these actions are admittedly subtle, but non the less real.
Good summary Jim.
If people want demonstrations, illustrations, and further explanations of these effects, here are some good resources:
“Squirt – Part VIII: squerve effects” (Billiards Digest, March, 2008)
NV B.70 - Squirt, swerve, and throw, from VEPS II
NV B.70 - Squirt, swerve, and throw, from VEPS II
Regards,
Dave
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