What are the "different strokes that you need to develop," per Billy Incardona?

Flex

Flex

Banger
Silver Member
What are the "different strokes that you need to develop," per Billy Incardona?

In another thread, Billy Incardona says there are "different strokes that you need to develop". Although Mr. Incardona didn't answer my questions about his very interesting statement in that other thread, for whatever reason, his post intrigued me quite a bit.

Could someone fill me in on what he's referring to, as Randy and Scott Lee and others seem to suggest there's really only one stroke that is necessary, a pendulum stroke with minimal or no elbow movement.

I've seen some doozies on the pool table, the cue ball doing the jitter bug and so on, and hope to gain some further understanding about which other strokes "need to be developed."

Perhaps Billy will see this thread and post here, and I hope he does. I also hope others will jump in...

Flex


wincardona said:
I would agree with Jay that the two most difficult games to play are rotation,and one pocket.Reyes is unbeatable at both games,but is vulnerable in all other games. Rotation is the most demanding game ,constantly challenging you to free up clusters,and at the same time playing position on the next ball with the correct angle for the next shot. Plus you have to be an excellent shot maker ,not to mention all the differen't strokes that you need to develope. Straight pool is not nearly as complex mainly because of all the options that are readily available. One pocket is another difficult game to play world class,because it requires skills in every facet of pool, shot making,position play,kicking,ball running,managing,creativity,and you must have defensive skills. I remember Reyes spotting Hopkins the 15 ball playing rotation, and Reyes won. I also remember in Portland Maine when Reyes,Wiley,and Strickland entered a straight pool tounament with a quality field and finished 1st.2nd.and 3rd.
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Flex said:
In another thread, Billy Incardona says there are "different strokes that you need to develop". Although Mr. Incardona didn't answer my questions about his very interesting statement in that other thread, for whatever reason, his post intrigued me quite a bit.

Could someone fill me in on what he's referring to, as Randy and Scott Lee and others seem to suggest there's really only one stroke that is necessary, a pendulum stroke with minimal or no elbow movement.

I've seen some doozies on the pool table, the cue ball doing the jitter bug and so on, and hope to gain some further understanding about which other strokes "need to be developed."

Perhaps Billy will see this thread and post here, and I hope he does. I also hope others will jump in...

Flex
Click to expand...


Theres a great thread about this but Ive seem to lost it... Freddy "the Beard" made some great post along with some others.. but I can not find it..
 
I agree with Billy. I have heard that "grips" and "feels" are important, too.

I was told that to advance one's game, they should practice by setting up one shot and then select a designated pocket. Pick where you are going to leave whitey after you pocket the ball. If you can position whitey at various positions on the table, then you have achieved the necessary grips, feels, and englishes. The player who has more shots in his/her arsenal, the better the player will be.

I can shoot low english and draw very well, but that's about it! :o

JAM
 
I'm not a professional teacher, and I don't really know what is taught by the BCA teachers. I don't know if they say there is really only one stroke or not, but IMO there sure are a lot of different strokes in advanced play.

I think advanced players think of them differently, call them by different names and apply them at times without even being aware they are doing it.

There are the punch strokes, the whip strokes, the smoothy strokes, the pinch strokes, the all out power strokes ... and on and on.

I believe that as one progresses in the game, the realization that the cue ball (I hate calling that thing whitey) is able to get to places on the table and do things while in route to those places that you never conceived of before.

What's important IMO and what I try to tell anyone who has asked me for help is that no matter where you are in your skill level, and no matter what stroke you are attempting to try, be very aware to make your practice strokes emulate exactly your actual stroke.

I know I've said this before in posts, but I do it because I've told folks this before when I had my poolroom and I was teaching them, and they just didn't realize how important it was.

For example, if you really need to force follow the cue ball hard after pocketing a ball, I recommend making your practice strokes more powerful. Stopping your stroke a few times at the cue ball and re-evaluate your aim and feel for the shot, then when you shoot, emulate that powerful practice stroke.

Do this rather than take short exacting strokes and a slow aim at the cue ball and then on the last actual stroke wail away at the ball. This entirely different shooting stroke totally renders your practice aiming useless.

On the other hand if your cue ball is a half inch from the OB and you need to use a little "nip" stroke, don't make your practice strokes long sweeping practice strokes. Instead make them the same as what you are about to execute.
 
Maybe he is referring to different speeds and tip positions, in which case I don't see why a pendulum stroke couldn't achieve all of them.
 
My practice strokes are simply for me to line up the shot and to make sure the cue is sliding through my fingers freely.

As for strokes, there are a few different ones I've come across.

Drawing and following when elevated
Regular follow through draw
Non follow through Draw- closer to a Punch draw
Jump
Backhand english is something new for me, but I tried it out the other day, and it's interesting.
 
The Monk teaches four different strokes, and claims to have had 50,000 satisfied students. (He advocates a different stroke for draw than for anything else, and admits that his "punch stroke" - the equivalent of boxing's jab - will cover close to 80% of all pool shots. Personally, I always liked Robert Byrne's analysis - "The ball does not know what you have done to it - and believe that one good sound stroke-production routine is really all you need. GF
 
George Fels said:
I always liked Robert Byrne's analysis - "The ball does not know what you have done to it - and believe that one good sound stroke-production routine is really all you need. GF
Click to expand...

George I agree with that statement entirely. Just as I agree that the apple on the tree doesn't know how it got picked. That doesn't mean you don't have to squat down lower and jump up higher for it than the apple that has fallen to the ground right next to you. :)
 
wow

Flex,
The instructors that you mentioned teach you to use the same
stroke for 90% of your shots, s.o.p. shots.
Standard Operating Procedure shots.
In the other 10% some things change, none of those things
being the way you move the stick toward the cb.
It's always a pendulum and it's almost always a full swing
to the finish position.
This is the easiest way to ensure that you're making
the contact that you want and that you'll get the expected
results.
-cOOp
 
coopdeville said:
Flex,
The instructors that you mentioned teach you to use the same
stroke for 90% of your shots, s.o.p. shots.
Standard Operating Procedure shots.
In the other 10% some things change, none of those things
being the way you move the stick toward the cb.
It's always a pendulum and it's almost always a full swing
to the finish position.
This is the easiest way to ensure that you're making
the contact that you want and that you'll get the expected
results.
-cOOp
Click to expand...

90% is just fine. It's those pesky 5% shots that I think Billy is probably referring to. Perhaps he's talking about is a tweaked pendulum stroke, maybe not. Perhaps it's a tiny jab; perhaps it's a throw the stick at the ball stroke. Perhaps it's one of those swoop strokes.

Or maybe it's some kind of stubby masse jump shot.

Or a jump draw shot.

Sheesh....

Billy, please weigh in!

Thanks,

Flex
 
Flex said:
In another thread, Billy Incardona says there are "different strokes that you need to develop". Although Mr. Incardona didn't answer my questions about his very interesting statement in that other thread, for whatever reason, his post intrigued me quite a bit.

Could someone fill me in on what he's referring to, as Randy and Scott Lee and others seem to suggest there's really only one stroke that is necessary, a pendulum stroke with minimal or no elbow movement.

I've seen some doozies on the pool table, the cue ball doing the jitter bug and so on, and hope to gain some further understanding about which other strokes "need to be developed."

Perhaps Billy will see this thread and post here, and I hope he does. I also hope others will jump in...

Flex
Click to expand...

Some of the different strokes I use in one-pocket a drag shot, a drag shot with english, a masse shot, a wrist turn shot, a jump shot, a jacked up shot to jump over object ball with draw or follow, a punch shot, a roll shot, a power shot, extreme english shots, and probably a dozen more.
 
there's a few hundred thousand ~ shots

wayne said:
Some of the different strokes I use in one-pocket a drag shot, a drag shot with english, a masse shot, a wrist turn shot, a jump shot, a jacked up shot to jump over object ball with draw or follow, a punch shot, a roll shot, a power shot, extreme english shots, and probably a dozen more.
Click to expand...

All these different 'shots', same stroke.
Please elaborate on the 'wrist turn shot'.
Wait, nevermind, don't.
:D
-cOOp
 
coopdeville said:
All these different 'shots', same stroke.
Please elaborate on the 'wrist turn shot'.
Wait, nevermind, don't.
:D
-cOOp
Click to expand...

Your stroke may always be the same but mine isn't and I stroke each of these shots differently, most shots are shot with the same type of stroke except when something special is required.

(If you reply again please try not to be a jerk.)
 
There are at the very least different stroke movements required when you have to do funky stuff with your bridge. If the balls are almost in contact, you're stroking differently and can't follow through in the usual way. If you have to masse or jumps, those are different strokes. If you have to bridge over another ball or use the crutch, those are different.

As for strokes from more standard positions, I think those should all be pretty much the same. You shouldn't have a different stroke for extreme sidespin vs. draw vs. topspin. But I'd be willing to buy a rational argument if an expert and/or instructor disagrees. Maybe there's some subtle mechanical thing (like pendulum vs piston) that forces one to stroke differently for draw or whatever.

I do definitely know that swerving the stick sideways for better sidespin is a fish move :)
 
CreeDo said:
There are at the very least different stroke movements required when you have to do funky stuff with your bridge. If the balls are almost in contact, you're stroking differently and can't follow through in the usual way. If you have to masse or jumps, those are different strokes. If you have to bridge over another ball or use the crutch, those are different.

As for strokes from more standard positions, I think those should all be pretty much the same. You shouldn't have a different stroke for extreme sidespin vs. draw vs. topspin. But I'd be williybe there's some subtle mechanical thing (like pendulum vs piston) that forcesng to buy a rational argument if an expert and/or instructor disagrees. Ma one to stroke differently for draw or whatever.

I do definitely know that swerving the stick sideways for better sidespin is a fish move :)
Click to expand...

Ah, but it's a favored move of some hustlers I know... very convincing when they throw their whole body into it, especially when the object ball bobbles a bit in the jaws before dropping.
 
oops

I can't think of a reason not to stroke straight through the cb.
Using the mechanical bridge is obviously different.
I use the same stroke to jump as I do for everything else.

SPF works great for everything.
I'm going to have to say it's more like 98%.

Wayne,
Sorry I came off that way.
I'm always learning and improving
but the wrist twist?
come on.

-cOOp
 
I've basically given up any hope of reading Mr. Incardona's comments here; he obviously has some other more important threads that are very alive. :) Not a problem.

I didn't actually expect him to divulge any secrets here, since he is in action all the time.

Truly, he's somewhat similar to another pro who teaches and who told me he has wondered how wise it is for him to show certain kinds of things to his students who might just come back and use them on him. Hmmm.... actually that's not very surprising, when one thinks about it. Reminds me of comments I read somewhere that nobody in the past would show anybody anything if they didn't pay for it.

Nevertheless, there is a wealth of good info on here from so many great players, for which I am most grateful.

Flex
 
To me, in the context of what Billy is saying, his meaning is that he thinks pocketing the balls in rotation is more difficult not only because of more difficult shots (read longer shots), but because of the combination of having to make the difficult long shots while using every imaginable combination of spin to get shape. Often, it is the unnatural position needed which makes the shot difficult.

He called it "strokes", others refer to them as "hits", and some even called them "englishes", but they are all referring to the different ways a cueball can be manipulated to achieve position. He is merely saying that these spins, which are needed to get shape, make the difficult shots even more difficult -and I don't think too many players would disagree with that statement. What is "developed" is not so much a special stroke, but the knowledge of how to hit the ball to achieve a particular effect.


Chris
 
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George, are you the book writer, mastering pool? If so I read your book aloder version in the early 90's and my thought processes improved alot along with my shot selection i was knew at pool at the time, I lost the book and one day will get another one, anyway really enjoyed your book, if this is the same person if not the book is worth taking a look at if you are one to learn from books.
 
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