What do you think could make a TAR-type venture work? Is it impossible?

[hang-the-9]

One thing when people discuss TAR I wish they would keep in mind is that for the last five or so years everything you see comes from one person. Every graphic, every video file, any technical creation of any sort comes from one guy. That guy had to figure out to do all of that stuff on his own. He didn't already know how to do it.

It always kind of surprises me when people act like TAR is some operation with a lot of time, skill and resources that just doesnt get shit done because it's too dumb or lazy to think of it.

The devil is always in the details. I did DVD's for years. It didnt make any money after taking into account the time to make them, ship them, deal with returns/lost shipments/people who don't know their own address.

After years I finally found a VOD solution that makes financial sense. One provider I looked at thought it would be an awesome idea for me to pay them hundreds of dollars a month and split the revenue of any sales 60/40 with them. They get the 60. I'm not going to make a deal just to do something.

I am good at making shit happen. I suck at selling it. Mark is the same way. There are a lot things that could have been done better on my end. But at the end of the day when you have limited resources and are selling a product most people are not interested in it makes for a tough road.

All I needed to make TAR a success is 1000 people on earth to pay to watch the best players on earth. On two or three occasions out of thirty nine we got to half that number. AZ Forums has 47,000 registered members. If you can not get 2 percent of people who know enough about pool to sign up to AZ to buy something then that tells me people just are not interested in what you are selling.

The streamers that are out there now giving things away or trying to do cheap PPV's for mediocre matches are living off of other events they don't have to finance. They just show up and stream and if they can make a few hundred to get them to the next place they are happy. Thats fine if thats what they want to do. I was trying to do something different.

We were talking about this during this weekend, about how little audience there seems to be for pro pool. Across the world, especially in Asia, there should be tens of thousands interested in this stuff. The other issue is the "sharing" of the stream. You get one purchase and 6 guys come over the house to watch it. Nothing can be done about that really since the core pool community is pretty little, I'm sure there are several groups of friends that get together for things like a TAR event.

 

[Ken_4fun]

Everyone is thinking from the wrong end.

Businesses are based on filling a need. Very few and I mean very few are made from creating a need.

TAR was trying to create a need. This is Apple's approach, and it worked for them with their I phones. TAR isn’t an I phone.

I hate to admit it, but without mainstream TV and its non-pool business advertisers it is destined to fail.

I have shot Sporting Clays for years. It is a lot of fun, and everyone I have ever taken has really enjoyed it. It tried to be on TV for a short time and was a dismal failure as well. Some things are just not that interesting to watch on TV, sorry but that’s the fact Jack.

So while Justin will lament the small number of folks watching the streams, it will ALWAYS be limited in the number of folks that would EVER tune in for the streams.

So IMO, as long as you approach it from the wrong end, I don’t see it being successful.

Everyone jumped on Bonus Ball and wanted to see their financial plan. I find it is the same as TAR, without TV and those non-pool advertising dollars it will struggle.

To make a TAR-type venture work, it will take more than a couple guys and some cameras. It will take a business structure that works with TV that is filling a need instead of someone trying to create it.

I know JAM always has the players at heart and we need folks like her, but thinking that pool players are going to be paid and treated like golf, baseball, and football players is a pipe dream. One thing for sure, it will never happen unless the PLAYERS can make themselves a marketable commodity. And I won’t try to beat this horse again, our last big outing in front of the public was the Mosconi Cup, and we all know how we looked there. IMO, it takes a NON POOL PLAYER professional that is a business person with the same skills as I noted before, that understands and operates in business structure that partners with TV.

I don’t see Justin as a failure, the cards and the deck was against him. He recognized that he wasn’t the guy that needed to take it to the next level. He said, "I am good at making shit happen. I suck at selling it. Mark is the same way. There are a lot things that could have been done better on my end. But at the end of the day when you have limited resources and are selling a product most people are not interested in it makes for a tough road." What he failed to do was to get the guy that could sell it.

I love all the guys like BigTruck, Pat Fleming, and all the rest. But as far as being successful, I don’t see it.

I wish them all the best of rolls,

Ken

 

[mosconiac]

IIRC, TAR had a program for 2 pro's to show up & get guaranteed money. I don't know that very many took them up on the free money offer...something like $2k loser, $4k winner. That wasn't enough to necessitate a waiting list to get your match on TAR?!?!?

 

[overlord]

The big problem with pool in general is it has to compete with the rest of the content out there. Back in the day pool had real stars that were household names. Like Willie Masconi who received appearance fees to show up at tournaments and held exhibitions and Minnesota Fats. As you know stars sell content. Pool is not covered on the sport pages of local newpapers and very little on TV. In the early and mid twentieth century it was. Pool used to be on ABC wide world of sports in the 60's.

If you create stars you get eyeballs and then the corporate money will follow. In recent memory the biggest star in pool was the Black Widow, not cause she was the best player but she worked on branding herself with the public. Great Players do not have the time to market themselves. Top Players need sports agents and publicists. They will not get these things unless some entity takes control of pool with a lot of seed money and changes things. This entity would have to have an international focus and have a comprehensive marketing and business plan. Everybody knows who the top golfers are even if they do not play golf. The top pool players might as well as be steath fighers cause they are not even on people's radar screen.

The content world is so crowded already that games without stars might as well get in line and take a ticket. To change things in pool you need big money, staying power and vision. It could be done, Barry Hearn did it for English Snooker. I think TAR did a good job with the resources they had. The general popularity of pool has been going down since the 1920's in the US. The only thing that will change this is massive capital investment and risk by some entity that has the abiltiy to take control of the whole mess and sell lots of beer with it.

It is ironic to me that most room owners could care less about pool and are really just interested in selling beer but pool can't even get a major brewer to sponsor it's pro events. To have stars you need to have real prize money. Money and stardom attract coroporate money. You also need some entity in control of the whole enchillada that has credibility. The future of pool is in Asia and that is one giant marketplace.The industry needs a super sales guy like Barry Hearn and a corporate partner like AB InBev. How about I just won a World Championship and won a Million Dollars and now it's time for a Stella Artois. To a multinational company a million dollars is chump change. Thant is the G5 washing budget.

 

[Ken_4fun]

In recent memory the biggest star in pool was the Black Widow, not cause she was the best player but she worked on branding herself with the public. Great Players do not have the time to market themselves. Top Players need sports agents and publicists.

Right and Wrong.

Jeanette does have an agent. She is no dummy. She does what she does well and she has hired someone to do the things she does not do well or cant do at all.

IF you would look at my post above, that is exactly what I was taking about.

Ken

 

[Koop]

I think TAR did it as right as humanly possible.
Pool just doesn't sell and it's a shame but true. I admit to being part of the problem in that I didn't buy every stream available. Family and available time usually don't permit.

Justin, best of luck in whatever you do. Truly. Doing it as long as you did in this environment speaks volumes.

Koop

 

[westcoast]

One thing that I think could have helped, but probably still not enough- would be to have TAR matches during the week. I know from my own experience that people have a lot going on over weekends. I found it difficult to fit the matches into my schedule.

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

One thing when people discuss TAR I wish they would keep in mind is that for the last five or so years everything you see comes from one person. Every graphic, every video file, any technical creation of any sort comes from one guy. That guy had to figure out to do all of that stuff on his own. He didn't already know how to do it.

It always kind of surprises me when people act like TAR is some operation with a lot of time, skill and resources that just doesnt get shit done because it's too dumb or lazy to think of it.

The devil is always in the details. I did DVD's for years. It didnt make any money after taking into account the time to make them, ship them, deal with returns/lost shipments/people who don't know their own address.

After years I finally found a VOD solution that makes financial sense. One provider I looked at thought it would be an awesome idea for me to pay them hundreds of dollars a month and split the revenue of any sales 60/40 with them. They get the 60. I'm not going to make a deal just to do something.

I am good at making shit happen. I suck at selling it. Mark is the same way. There are a lot things that could have been done better on my end. But at the end of the day when you have limited resources and are selling a product most people are not interested in it makes for a tough road.

All I needed to make TAR a success is 1000 people on earth to pay to watch the best players on earth. On two or three occasions out of thirty nine we got to half that number. AZ Forums has 47,000 registered members. If you can not get 2 percent of people who know enough about pool to sign up to AZ to buy something then that tells me people just are not interested in what you are selling.

The streamers that are out there now giving things away or trying to do cheap PPV's for mediocre matches are living off of other events they don't have to finance. They just show up and stream and if they can make a few hundred to get them to the next place they are happy. Thats fine if thats what they want to do. I was trying to do something different.

I think a lot of us don't want to commit to an entire weekend watching pool. One Saturday night (4 - 6 hours) for around 25.00 with two big name players will get you a much bigger audience IMO. It becomes an event like MMA fighting. Friends come over to watch and have a party (not many people want 3 days of partying). Announce the players up front and get 500 people to commit before you make the match. I really believe you could get 2,500 people. You could do this with one AZB thread. Just one idea of many to come I'm sure.

 

[takeitdown]

Pool today

Pro and advanced amatuer pool is a fringe sport.

Traveling back from DCC by Greyhound I had my cue case with me. Everyone was asking, whats that? Pool cues. I met a young man in Buffalo who said he shoots APA. For fun I asked him he recognized any of the big names at DCC...Archer, Strickland, Reyes, Bustamonte...nothing.

Even among guys home that play 10-20 hours a week..most still have no idea who the big names, tournaments or movers are in pool. I can show off a 3000 dollar cue and it gets the same reaction that a 300 cue would. Sadly guys the interest just isnt there.

If you asked people at the door of SBE next month to name 3 American pros it would be about 1/3 or less that could. Just the way it is.

 

[JCIN]

Everyone is thinking from the wrong end.

Businesses are based on filling a need. Very few and I mean very few are made from creating a need.

TAR was trying to create a need. This is Apple's approach, and it worked for them with their I phones. TAR isn’t an I phone.

I hate to admit it, but without mainstream TV and its non-pool business advertisers it is destined to fail.

I have shot Sporting Clays for years. It is a lot of fun, and everyone I have ever taken has really enjoyed it. It tried to be on TV for a short time and was a dismal failure as well. Some things are just not that interesting to watch on TV, sorry but that’s the fact Jack.

So while Justin will lament the small number of folks watching the streams, it will ALWAYS be limited in the number of folks that would EVER tune in for the streams.

So IMO, as long as you approach it from the wrong end, I don’t see it being successful.

Everyone jumped on Bonus Ball and wanted to see their financial plan. I find it is the same as TAR, without TV and those non-pool advertising dollars it will struggle.

To make a TAR-type venture work, it will take more than a couple guys and some cameras. It will take a business structure that works with TV that is filling a need instead of someone trying to create it.

I know JAM always has the players at heart and we need folks like her, but thinking that pool players are going to be paid and treated like golf, baseball, and football players is a pipe dream. One thing for sure, it will never happen unless the PLAYERS can make themselves a marketable commodity. And I won’t try to beat this horse again, our last big outing in front of the public was the Mosconi Cup, and we all know how we looked there. IMO, it takes a NON POOL PLAYER professional that is a business person with the same skills as I noted before, that understands and operates in business structure that partners with TV.

I don’t see Justin as a failure, the cards and the deck was against him. He recognized that he wasn’t the guy that needed to take it to the next level. He said, "I am good at making shit happen. I suck at selling it. Mark is the same way. There are a lot things that could have been done better on my end. But at the end of the day when you have limited resources and are selling a product most people are not interested in it makes for a tough road." What he failed to do was to get the guy that could sell it.

I love all the guys like BigTruck, Pat Fleming, and all the rest. But as far as being successful, I don’t see it.

I wish them all the best of rolls,

Ken

So are you saying that getting 1000 people on the planet to pay $12-$15 a day to watch the best in the world play is the same thing as trying to get shotgun shooting to be successful on TV?

I have never had any illusions about mainstream success. I have said it over and over. Pool has never and will never be a mainstream spectator sport. For a whole bunch of reasons.

With the right combination of factors a TAR like setup could survive on a small niche market. As it sits now that combination is not there. The fact is that outside of a very small die hard group of people no one wants to pay to watch other people play pool. Not enough people want to watch people play for free to interest any serious sponsor.

Its the same with all kinds of activities/games/sports. Add in the low bar to entry, no industry leadership to speak of and the demographic of the pool world it doesnt take long to figure out that it is brutal market. Its no ones fault its just how things are.

I believe that with the money BB and the IPT shot up in the air they could of built a structure that made sense. Both chose to go a different route and thats their right. It takes money, brains, skill and luck. Its rare to get two in the same place and I have yet to ever see all four in pool.

 

[Birriards]

Oh awesome, another how do we fix pro pool, pool on tv, pool on steam thread.

Here's an idea... Throw shoulder pads and a helmet on them, give them a 100 yard field and ball and call it football. I bet that would work.

Ken4fun nailed it... There are lots of activities in this world that people think are fun to do but not watch. Where are all of the threads wondering why Ping Pong doesn't have a national TV deal? What about threads on why the shuffleboard streamers are failing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JCIN]

I think a lot of us don't want to commit to an entire weekend watching pool. One Saturday night (4 - 6 hours) for around 25.00 with two big name players will get you a much bigger audience IMO. It becomes an event like MMA fighting. Friends come over to watch and have a party (not many people want 3 days of partying). Announce the players up front and get 500 people to commit before you make the match. I really believe you could get 2,500 people. You could do this with one AZB thread. Just one idea of many to come I'm sure.

No PPV stream has ever gotten 1000 viewers in any format. Ever. It is very rare to get a free audience of 2500. Happens a few times a year maybe.

If it was possible to get 500 people to commit up front to a match (its not) how many times a year do you think you could do that?

 

[kvinbrwr]

All I needed to make TAR a success is 1000 people on earth to pay to watch the best players on earth. On two or three occasions out of thirty nine we got to half that number. AZ Forums has 47,000 registered members. If you can not get 2 percent of people who know enough about pool to sign up to AZ to buy something then that tells me people just are not interested in what you are selling.

Yup, sad but true. Even the people that are interested in pool are, as a general rule, not that interested in watching it.

One of the early TAR matches( SVB and maybe Corey) I went running to my local poolroom with my laptop and WIFI and prepared to wow everyone. I was the only person interested in watching it. Players, or bangers doesn't matter, pool players don't want to watch pool.

I was just watching a trick shot UTube video Florian made in some pool room. He was shooting these shots and the guys on the tables along side him would rather play than watch. If the gal Florian had sprawled across the table in a mini would have done it without the shots, they would have maybe stopped their banging to take a look. Put in in the equation and even those that play have no interest.

Kevin

 

[PhilosopherKing]

Live, third-party cue raffles:

- Event/match is announced
- Sellers submit cues and asking prices
- Producers choose cues
- Sellers ship cues to producers
- Producers act as escrow service
- Viewers purchase stream
- Producers provide list of cues/prices-per-spot
- Viewers purchase spots
- Cues are raffled live on stream

 

[gxman]

How does matchroom.com do it? Do they just get a ton of advertising money? Their events are no entry fee and fairly hefty paydays too. Maybe their pool events doesnt make money but it can be absorbed by all thier other sporting events.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

No PPV stream has ever gotten 1000 viewers in any format. Ever. It is very rare to get a free audience of 2500. Happens a few times a year maybe.

If it was possible to get 500 people to commit up front to a match (its not) how many times a year do you think you could do that?

I would spend money on a monthly subscription model like HBO! 500 here sign up I hope? 30 x 500 = 15000 minus expenses

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

[kvinbrwr]

I would spend money on a monthly subscription model like HBO! 500 here sign up I hope? 30 x 500 = 15000 minus expenses

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

So out of a 15K a month gross you pay expenses and what is left? You get done leasing the space, paying for bandwidth and equipment and players and what is left to call a profit (if you COULD get 500 people to subscribe and commit and pay which I doubt).

 

[Cory in DC]

I would spend money on a monthly subscription model like HBO! 500 here sign up I hope? 30 x 500 = 15000 minus expenses

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

This was my thought as well. The problem for me is that there are lots of times I'd like to watch a little pool, but I can't block out 3-4 hours for a match that's played at a specific time. A subscription seems like a great way to monetize the library. You could even tier the fees, so $10 gets you everything more than 1 year old, $20 has a 3 month or 3 week window, and $30 includes all matches.

The other issue with why pool is boring to watch is that you're just watching one match at a time, and that results in a lot of down time. Golf would be super boring to watch if you literally followed one pair of players from start to finish. That's not how they do it, though--they focus on a few players and flash over for updates with everyone else.

This isn't specific to TAR, though. All pool ever broadcast has been done in the same, single match, way. Apply some editing and pack coverage of three matches into 2 hours and you'd have some pretty interesting content.

In any case, I'm sorry to see TAR go and I wish JCIN the best.

Cory

 

[kvinbrwr]

I loved the idea of TAR. I dig gorilla ventures, go to gorilla theater etc here in LA. People doing something out of love has always appealed to me. And, lets face it, any pool broadcast at all is going to be gorilla in some form or another.

But doing something for love seldom pays, and I would think that dealing with pool people, players and fans alike would help the love for the venture wane pretty darn quick and you end up looking at what you are actually making and ask yourself, "is it worth it?" and I think we have that answer here.

 

[naji]

One thing when people discuss TAR I wish they would keep in mind is that for the last five or so years everything you see comes from one person. Every graphic, every video file, any technical creation of any sort comes from one guy. That guy had to figure out to do all of that stuff on his own. He didn't already know how to do it.

It always kind of surprises me when people act like TAR is some operation with a lot of time, skill and resources that just doesnt get shit done because it's too dumb or lazy to think of it.

The devil is always in the details. I did DVD's for years. It didnt make any money after taking into account the time to make them, ship them, deal with returns/lost shipments/people who don't know their own address.

After years I finally found a VOD solution that makes financial sense. One provider I looked at thought it would be an awesome idea for me to pay them hundreds of dollars a month and split the revenue of any sales 60/40 with them. They get the 60. I'm not going to make a deal just to do something.

I am good at making shit happen. I suck at selling it. Mark is the same way. There are a lot things that could have been done better on my end. But at the end of the day when you have limited resources and are selling a product most people are not interested in it makes for a tough road.

All I needed to make TAR a success is 1000 people on earth to pay to watch the best players on earth. On two or three occasions out of thirty nine we got to half that number. AZ Forums has 47,000 registered members. If you can not get 2 percent of people who know enough about pool to sign up to AZ to buy something then that tells me people just are not interested in what you are selling.

The streamers that are out there now giving things away or trying to do cheap PPV's for mediocre matches are living off of other events they don't have to finance. They just show up and stream and if they can make a few hundred to get them to the next place they are happy. Thats fine if thats what they want to do. I was trying to do something different.

Still pretty bummed that TAR is dead.
What do you guys think? Is there some way to do PPV pool streams between
2 champions, and quit your day job?

Hope this doesn't come off the wrong way like I'm second-guessing anyone at TAR.
I always thought TAR was an example of what it looks like when everything is done right.
I guess I just assumed they were profitable even though there were occasional
grim comments about barely breaking even on some matches.

So maybe even if you do everything right, you still go broke.
Does something fundamental in pool have to change to make it viable?

Legalizing online gambling is the only way for pool to make money, for players as well as promoters and some viewers might get lucky.