What do you think could make a TAR-type venture work? Is it impossible?

[JoeyA]

Microcosm: A little world.

I talked with a young man today about pool. He is my physical therapist and he was very interested in hearing all about pool and I gave him my best. I've been seeing a physical therapist for a rotator cuff tear for a few weeks now and we (I) talk about pool and all that is going on in the pool world and today, this very intelligent guy says, "It's hard for me to believe that all of this information is hidden from me." This young guy is in his middle to late 20's and is a physical fitness rehab guy but seems to be pretty keen.

I'm looking back at him thinking to myself, so that's what the problem is. Now this young guy seemed pretty interested in what's going on in the pool world but didn't have a clue. Now I'm thinking again, "Why the hell doesn't he know ANYTHING about pool?" I didn't say anything to him like that but maybe on Wednesday I will ask him why he doesn't know anything about what's going on in the pool world. I did remark to him that most likely it was because pool wasn't on the telly in America all that much. I think I'll ask him if he knows who the Black Widow is. :wink:

JoeyA

 

[jeffj2h]

I'm looking back at him thinking to myself, so that's what the problem is. Now this young guy seemed pretty interested in what's going on in the pool world but didn't have a clue. Now I'm thinking again, "Why the hell doesn't he know ANYTHING about pool?"
JoeyA

Last week in APA Masters, I played a guy about my age, mid 40's. He played great. If he had an open table he probably ran it out. Afterwards we spoke for a while. He was well dressed and seemed like a professional (not of pool) of some sort. Said he had a Diamond bar-box in his house.

I asked if he had seen the Earl vs Efren match and he seemed confused.

I said "Have you heard of Earl Strickland?"

He said "I think I might have." Great player… has a Diamond... doesn't know who Earl is. I imagine there are a lot of guys like him out there.

 

[00john]

just when i think pools situation couldnt be more bleak...they didnt say but wait! wait till the new awesome thing we are replacing it with, Its gonna be great. I think pool programming needs to be modernized to widen its audience. Daniel Busch of POV Pool is in the game. Im wishing him success.

 

[Hidy Ho]

No PPV stream has ever gotten 1000 viewers in any format. Ever. It is very rare to get a free audience of 2500. Happens a few times a year maybe.

If it was possible to get 500 people to commit up front to a match (its not) how many times a year do you think you could do that?

I don't know how you deal with all the geniuses out there (some were even an auditor!!) who knows your business and industry (apparently WAY more than you or Mark Griffin) telling you what you shoulda coulda woulda ...

 

[TATE]

One thing when people discuss TAR I wish they would keep in mind is that for the last five or so years everything you see comes from one person. Every graphic, every video file, any technical creation of any sort comes from one guy. That guy had to figure out to do all of that stuff on his own. He didn't already know how to do it.

It always kind of surprises me when people act like TAR is some operation with a lot of time, skill and resources that just doesnt get shit done because it's too dumb or lazy to think of it.

The devil is always in the details. I did DVD's for years. It didnt make any money after taking into account the time to make them, ship them, deal with returns/lost shipments/people who don't know their own address.

After years I finally found a VOD solution that makes financial sense. One provider I looked at thought it would be an awesome idea for me to pay them hundreds of dollars a month and split the revenue of any sales 60/40 with them. They get the 60. I'm not going to make a deal just to do something.

I am good at making shit happen. I suck at selling it. Mark is the same way. There are a lot things that could have been done better on my end. But at the end of the day when you have limited resources and are selling a product most people are not interested in it makes for a tough road.

All I needed to make TAR a success is 1000 people on earth to pay to watch the best players on earth. On two or three occasions out of thirty nine we got to half that number. AZ Forums has 47,000 registered members. If you can not get 2 percent of people who know enough about pool to sign up to AZ to buy something then that tells me people just are not interested in what you are selling.

The streamers that are out there now giving things away or trying to do cheap PPV's for mediocre matches are living off of other events they don't have to finance. They just show up and stream and if they can make a few hundred to get them to the next place they are happy. Thats fine if thats what they want to do. I was trying to do something different.

I think you did as well as you possibly could with the resources you had. You did a great job on the production side. It's just not an easy business model when the target audience is so small.

Could have been a bad move to get the studio without a steady income stream to cover the overhead. It's possible that a shared expense deal worked out with a pool room would have been mutually beneficial. You give them advertising and a percentage of the gate, they give you a tournament area.

 

[prewarhero]

Last week in APA Masters, I played a guy about my age, mid 40's. He played great. If he had an open table he probably ran it out. Afterwards we spoke for a while. He was well dressed and seemed like a professional (not of pool) of some sort. Said he had a Diamond bar-box in his house.

I asked if he had seen the Earl vs Efren match and he seemed confused.

I said "Have you heard of Earl Strickland?"

He said "I think I might have." Great player… has a Diamond... doesn't know who Earl is. I imagine there are a lot of guys like him out there.

This is very true. I know a few like that in league.

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

If it was possible to get 500 people to commit up front to a match (its not) how many times a year do you think you could do that?

I would do it 5 or 6 times a year a least. I would also put up a 200.00 deposit if necessary. Annual membership with guarantee of 6 matches a year?

 

[JoeyA]

Last week in APA Masters, I played a guy about my age, mid 40's. He played great. If he had an open table he probably ran it out. Afterwards we spoke for a while. He was well dressed and seemed like a professional (not of pool) of some sort. Said he had a Diamond bar-box in his house.

I asked if he had seen the Earl vs Efren match and he seemed confused.

I said "Have you heard of Earl Strickland?"

He said "I think I might have." Great player… has a Diamond... doesn't know who Earl is. I imagine there are a lot of guys like him out there.

Arrrrgh......

Pool is just not a mainstream sport. Television still rules!

JoeyA

 

[RobertR]

Any incarnation of PPV pool is sadly doomed. Imagine someone as smart and articulate as Justin trying to sell this on Shark Tank. He'd hold his own, but eventually the numbers would just run him over. What's your audience ? Really? (/having said that, Mark Cuban might be the guy). :thumbup:

Reminds me of a funny conversation I had with a very smart friend of mine. He had come up with a great idea for a phone app. After he disclosed it was about pool, I hated to do it but I said "So, you only want to make $10,000 tops eh ?".

 

[Put_upor_shutup]

U don't figure out how to do it..U wait for Tar to get a spark again in the future and come back..ha ha
One thing I noticed though is that with boxing and mms fights hbo and companies charge per tv or per person compacity to sell the pay per view to bars. They in turn charge each head the comes in..I have seen several pool halls that have got the pay per vies Tar feeds and had 10-20 ppl that come just to watch..I think if they wanna continue to see these things they should have each person pay like 5 a head that are interested in watching and send the money in..I'm just saying if u have like 30 pool halls across the u.s. that have an average of 15 ppl watching each event at 5 a piece that's another 2-3k per event..and I honestly think there is more than that..I think if pool halls were contacted this could be done..Maybe not cause ppl are cheap but that's 5 a head to watch a 30$ package..seems fair to me..

 

[dr9ball]

Still pretty bummed that TAR is dead.
What do you guys think? Is there some way to do PPV pool streams between
2 champions, and quit your day job?

Hope this doesn't come off the wrong way like I'm second-guessing anyone at TAR.
I always thought TAR was an example of what it looks like when everything is done right.
I guess I just assumed they were profitable even though there were occasional
grim comments about barely breaking even on some matches.

So maybe even if you do everything right, you still go broke.
Does something fundamental in pool have to change to make it viable?

You need 1 million die hard pro pool fans who will pay to watch players they have an emotional connection with battle it out with another player they have an emotional connection with. So yes, something fundamental must change. the general public has to desire to see these matches.

 

[JoeyA]

You need 1 million die hard pro pool fans who will pay to watch players they have an emotional connection with battle it out with another player they have an emotional connection with. So yes, something fundamental must change. the general public has to desire to see these matches.

You're right, no doubt about the fact that something fundamental must change for the public to embrace pool in general.

I started reflecting about my own life and most of you already know my passion for pool and the time that I have spent playing and discussing pool.

For me, I seldom ever talk seriously about pool to anyone else except those of like mind and spirit. That has me wondering if I am ashamed of pool and the image that it has with the public. If that is true, then this is a serious issue. If I do not have a serious impetus to share my love of pool with friends, family and strangers, then what about the rest of the pool people out there who aren't quite as outgoing as I am apt to be.

Sure, I talk to my physical therapist about pool because it is a relative item to both of us, since that is why I am getting treatment for rotator cuff tear. Sure, I talk about pool on Facebook. If I get 20 nods of approval on a pool topic, from my many thousands of FBFs, that is plenty.

For that reason I have two identities on FB, one primarily for friends and family and one for pool. It is a little bit of a pain to keep up with both of them but it is what it is.

I'm not sure if we all had a change of heart and told all of our friends, families and acquaintances about how much we love pool and shared our enthusiasm with them, if it would make a difference or not.

Perhaps it might be easier for use to share our love for pool if we didn't already know that most of the world views pool as a bunch of no-good (fill in the blanks).

Maybe the people who are on the side of getting rid of the gambling, the drugging, the dumping, the stealing, the smack-talking and the childish badgering that is sometimes done in person and on social media are right.
While I love gambling on myself, I would keep that part of pool even more compartmentalized if I knew it would help pool. Hell, I might even give it up entirely. It's not like I make money gambling at pool.

JoeyA

 

[Island Drive]

I'd first ask Justin....what did work or what was good, then ask the opposite question and go from there.

 

[cleary]

U don't figure out how to do it..U wait for Tar to get a spark again in the future and come back..ha ha
One thing I noticed though is that with boxing and mms fights hbo and companies charge per tv or per person compacity to sell the pay per view to bars. They in turn charge each head the comes in..I have seen several pool halls that have got the pay per vies Tar feeds and had 10-20 ppl that come just to watch..I think if they wanna continue to see these things they should have each person pay like 5 a head that are interested in watching and send the money in..I'm just saying if u have like 30 pool halls across the u.s. that have an average of 15 ppl watching each event at 5 a piece that's another 2-3k per event..and I honestly think there is more than that..I think if pool halls were contacted this could be done..Maybe not cause ppl are cheap but that's 5 a head to watch a 30$ package..seems fair to me..

TAR tried to push this around the time they got the studio. They even gave a free PPV to pool rooms around the country one time in hopes that the next one, they would buy it. But the next time, all the pool rooms just asked for another free ride and didn't buy. Sad.

 

[CreeDo]

JCIN, thanks for jumping in... hope whatever you do next works out better.

I know the casino fell through, what about a pool hall?
Seems like the casino's attitude is "we make millions, what's in it for us if we give you this space
for a few weekends a year?"
The pool hall's attitude is more like "we are lucky to stay afloat and you would be a huge
draw to our humble little venue."

If you could make the cost of the room zero, would that reduce the nut enough to matter?

 

[cleary]

How does matchroom.com do it? Do they just get a ton of advertising money? Their events are no entry fee and fairly hefty paydays too. Maybe their pool events doesnt make money but it can be absorbed by all thier other sporting events.

Matchroom works with a major world wide network that brings in millions and millions and millions in advertising dollars. Matchroom has a budget to create a show because of those major advertisers. Pool is a very small part of what they do and we should feel grateful that they continue to do pool events.

 

[Island Drive]

Have you ever dealt with casinos?

It really is not as simple as you make it sound. It would be sweet if it was.

Casino mindsets are as shallow as a $100 William. It's all tongue and cheek and what's in it for me....''sound familiar''.

They tho are waaaaaay better at gambling than any pool player. It's all smoke and mirrors and a mind Ejack business model. They care Only about the dollar, to find another NOT this way....well good luck, and Luck is not what casinos bank on , it$ Number$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Jack Johnston may of been one of the few to pull it off, or Camel with the cigarette backing.

 

[The Saw]

TAR tried to push this around the time they got the studio. They even gave a free PPV to pool rooms around the country one time in hopes that the next one, they would buy it. But the next time, all the pool rooms just asked for another free ride and didn't buy. Sad.

Poolrooms dog it on this all the time.... We used to have a 100" big screen at the poolroom that was dedicated to playing pool content- we had a huge catalog of Accu-Stats and had a several hours of action matches that we recorded live, in house. It's not about bringing customers in, it's about getting the ones that are there more interested in pool... They see Efren, Earl, SVB, etc... and it makes them "real-eyes" where their game is at and where it could go. I did that over 15 years ago... Now, with streaming matches and the plethora of content on the interwebs there is no reason that every poolroom isn't doing it.....

Yes, even in 1997, The Saw was the teacher.

 

[prewarhero]

You're right, no doubt about the fact that something fundamental must change for the public to embrace pool in general.


JoeyA

I agree with that, but I don't think that would make such a difference in the world of PPV pool. Look, I boast one of the largest collections of videos/dvds of pool matches, well over 1100. I watch them religiously. But to be frank. It is kinda boring. Rarely can I finish an entire match in one sitting. It usually takes me 2 nights to watch one race to 11.

While I want Shane and Dennis to duke it out to a race to 100 and watch it over a 3 week period I don't want to watch it 3 nights in row on a stream. A 2 hour exciting event would have more appeal to me.


That guy in a pool room that doesn't know who Earl is will most likely find it booring too.

 

[markgw]

I think I would have sponsorship in place before even attempting to launch it. I would put together a promotional video demonstrating the format. I would have a strict dress code at every event. I would try to make the production look as classy as possible with an audience. I would pitch it to secondary television markets. I think a dress code would not only increase the value of the production but if any potential sponsors ever tuned in, they would see something that had potential value as apposed to seeing people playing pool in shorts and t-shirts. I would want the video part of the production to be top notch like Justin and TAR.

The commentating would have to be professional and they would be told to describe what's happening at the table for the viewers, much like Jeremy Jones does. This will make the viewing much more exciting and educational for the viewers. I would speak to people in the television industry for advise and suggestions. I would get celebrities involved as potential undercard matches which in turn could help hooking more sponsership. I would have a marketing team cold calling potential sponsors daily and sending them the promo video package....