What is up with the BCA's & Desrimination?

[klockdoc]

I had to wait as two women's open teams played a match against each other. The race in this format is also shorter than the men's. By wait, I mean--wait and wait and wait and wait. 4 hours for the match. Why they put these two teams in the main pit was/is beyond me? Yep, the women in the open sure can play.

I remember that team. LOL They were a Trophy team and they were so drunk, neither team could make a ball. It did take quite a while.

I would also point out that when it gets down to the finals of the Scotch Doubles, (now this is Vegas in May), there is a lot of overlap between ladies still in the Women's Open and the Scotch Doubles. 2006 we had to wait for Caroline Pao to finish the Open before playing the finals in the Scotch. She played almost 5 matches.

Sometimes the ladies take slightly longer, even though they are better players because they are more cautious . But, I too think the race is too short.

Also, if they lowered the entry fee, they would have to lower the winnings

Try playing the Scotch doubles! The loser side is race to three Rolls definitely play a factor in this short race.

 

[cuechick]

I remember that team. LOL They were a Trophy team and they were so drunk, neither team could make a ball. It did take quite a while.



Also, if they lowered the entry fee, they would have to lower the winnings

I do not think they should lower the entry fee, I think they should either raise the race or raise then entry of the mens. I would prefer they just raise the race.

As far as the waiting on the women for SD, isn't that same case if a male player was still in both tournaments?

 

[Williebetmore]

and to base this assumption solely on sex is pure and simple discrimination..

CC,
I hope you mean "gender" and not "sex"....that would be sick.

Signed,
The Grammar Police

P.S. - I feel your pain. Our VNEA singles event at the state tournament was RACE TO 2 on the losers side; with a 4 hour wait between matches. If I'm paying and playing in a tournament, I WANT TO PLAY AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

 

[watchez]

I remember that team. LOL They were a Trophy team and they were so drunk, neither team could make a ball. It did take quite a while.

I would also point out that when it gets down to the finals of the Scotch Doubles, (now this is Vegas in May), there is a lot of overlap between ladies still in the Women's Open and the Scotch Doubles. 2006 we had to wait for Caroline Pao to finish the Open before playing the finals in the Scotch. She played almost 5 matches.

Sometimes the ladies take slightly longer, even though they are better players because they are more cautious . But, I too think the race is too short.

Also, if they lowered the entry fee, they would have to lower the winnings

Try playing the Scotch doubles! The loser side is race to three Rolls definitely play a factor in this short race.

Klockdoc--that would be all well in good if all the open women played as well as your daughter. The better women like her would surely benefit from a longer race. Unfortunately, they don't. And I still think that the drunk women holding up things up were open teams but I was trying my best to ignore the situation.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Women's races

Hi, we are aware of this thread.

Please keep in mind - the first thing we did when we took over the league in June 2004, was to extend the women's team races to 10 (they were 8 the previous years).

That worked out OK. We can look at the other issues that might come into play to determine if longer races are possible.

We also changed the payout structures: we started adding money to ALL the events (Open, men & women seniors etc). But the payouts between men and women CANNOT be the same.

We took the total added money for the event - and put a base added amount to the women and the men - and prorated about 60% of the added money by the size of the field. It seems only fair to support the players that support us. That way the events are a little more self-supporting.

Feel free to contact me at 702-719-7665.

Mark Griffin

PS Don't forget, we are also doding the Qlympics event in Louisville Nov1-18.

 

[dardusm]

Hello cuechick,

I agree that the shorter races aren't fair and hopefully down the road changes can be made to correct the situation. In my area, there is a case of reverse discrimination where a couple of places that run tournaments every few months require male players to give a handicap to female players! The problem is that some of the female players play better than some of the male players and they have to spot them. In one instance, a person possessing transgender qualities played and received the handicap (that was very interesting). My contention is that if your going to handicap the tournament then do it by skill level and not gender.

Darryl

 

[cuechick]

Hi, we are aware of this thread.

Please keep in mind - the first thing we did when we took over the league in June 2004, was to extend the women's team races to 10 (they were 8 the previous years).

That worked out OK. We can look at the other issues that might come into play to determine if longer races are possible.

We also changed the payout structures: we started adding money to ALL the events (Open, men & women seniors etc). But the payouts between men and women CANNOT be the same.

We took the total added money for the event - and put a base added amount to the women and the men - and prorated about 60% of the added money by the size of the field. It seems only fair to support the players that support us. That way the events are a little more self-supporting.

Feel free to contact me at 702-719-7665.

Mark Griffin

PS Don't forget, we are also doding the Qlympics event in Louisville Nov1-18.

Thanks Mark for responding, I really hope they will consider this change. I think the Qlympics might be a good place to try this out. Seeing the short race on the entry form was exactly the thing that inspired me to start this thread. It is also the reason I will probably not play. It is just too far to go and to expensive to stay for what could end up being 8 games of pool.

I am also confused as to why there are two 8 Ball events and no 9 Ball?

I do not want to get off topic....but I wondered if the was a mistake?

I agree that the payouts can not be the same (and I never suggested that they should be), there are 3 times the entrys in the Men's event so of course there will be more money. I appreciate the change in the team event and urge you to make the change in the singles.

Thanks!

 

[cuechick]

and I am sure that the shorter races have nothing to do with discrimination and everything to do with running a smooth and timely tournament......Marc

If that is the case Marc, shouldn't it be the men playing shorter races, since there are 3 times as many men playing, taking up a lot more tables than the women?

 

[cuechick]

Hello cuechick,

I agree that the shorter races aren't fair and hopefully down the road changes can be made to correct the situation.

Darryl

Yes, let's hope so!

 

[watchez]

I am starting to think that cuechick might have been on one of the two teams that took 4 hours to play their match in the main pit.

In pro golf, women play from a closer tee so their rounds don't take 6 hours. The greens are also softer and the rough not cut so high, to speed up play & enhance the quality of play.

In pro tennis, women play best of out 3, while the men play best out of 5.

In pro pool, women play on tables with 5 inch pockets.

In the BCA tournament in May, women play races to 10 in the team event. Thank you to Mark Griffin for this.

Since each year, people seem to have a jaded view of what happens in the women's events at the BCA==next year I will take notes. If the women teams aren't bickering among themselves, they bicker with people watching or with the BCA because the races are too short. In the match that took 4 hours, and had the pain to watch the last hour, this one woman complained that I was standing behind her team & she had to walk an extra 3 feet around me when she came back to the table. She stopped the whole match and got the head ref to complain about this extra 3 feet of movement she had to make in her life. Here is a quote of what the ref said to me "I know this is ridiculious, please just stand here & act like I am talking to you about it for 30 seconds and then I will walk away".

 

[Koopa]

Why are we still separating women and men in pool? Last I checked this wasn't a full contact sport.

Hell in high school hockey we had teams with girls on them and we didn't hit them any softer than we hit each other.

 

[watchez]

Why are we still separating women and men in pool? Last I checked this wasn't a full contact sport.

Hell in high school hockey we had teams with girls on them and we didn't hit them any softer than we hit each other.

Actually Koopa, they are only sorta separated. Just like with your hockey--the women can play with the men. Just not visa versa.

And this is the answer to cuechick's 'problem'. If she wants to play a race to 13, if she wants to play on more tables, if she wants to play for more money then all she has to do is enter the Open events the BCA has each year.

 

[Koopa]

Actually Koopa, they are only sorta separated. Just like with your hockey--the women can play with the men. Just not visa versa.

And this is the answer to cuechick's 'problem'. If she wants to play a race to 13, if she wants to play on more tables, if she wants to play for more money then all she has to do is enter the Open events the BCA has each year.

Good point, I had forgotten about that.

 

[cuechick]

Actually Koopa, they are only sorta separated. Just like with your hockey--the women can play with the men. Just not visa versa.

And this is the answer to cuechick's 'problem'. If she wants to play a race to 13, if she wants to play on more tables, if she wants to play for more money then all she has to do is enter the Open events the BCA has each year.

Check again, there is not open's event in the singles only in the teams. There is a Men's Open event and there is Women's Open. And even if the M.O. did allow women, playing in it still would not resolve the inequality of the races vs. entry fee in the Women's Open. I did not just start this thread for myself but for the many women I have talked too who have felt a little cheated.

Personally, I enjoy playing men, and played in several Open mini's, finishing 2nd and 3rd in two of them. But, I am also not stupid, I certainly have a better chance in the Women's event where the field is much smaller. I also know overall the men's field is stronger...that is just fact. I have never said the women were better or even overall as strong, but the levels within the Women's Open has risen significantly and there is no longer a need for a shorter race. If you read my original post, I think I make that point pretty clear.

You know, it is easy to be cynical and condescending when it is not an issue that effects you.

 

[Cuebacca]

Unfortunately, I think ultimately the problem is that, if you extend the women's race to 5, then the men will complain that they should get a race to 6. LOL. Everyone wants to play as long a race as possible. The argument would be that the women's format allows more time at the table than the men's format. I don't claim to know that it would be true, but I think it would be a common belief at the least.

Perhaps the only way for the BCA to win (reduce complaints) is if they start taking data on how long the matches truly take. Then the average could be calculated for each division, and the race length could be adjusted for the following year if it is found that match time length is too slow or unexpectedly fast in one division or another.

I don't know if this is feasible, but perhaps it wouldn't be too hard once the spreadsheet is set up for it, since they already have people entering stuff into computers when matches complete.

 

[cuechick]

Unfortunately, I think ultimately the problem is that, if you extend the women's race to 5, then the men will complain that they should get a race to 6. LOL. Everyone wants to play as long a race as possible. The argument would be that the women's format allows more time at the table than the men's format. I don't claim to know that it would be true, but I think it would be a common belief at the least.

Perhaps the only way for the BCA to win (reduce complaints) is if they start taking data on how long the matches truly take. Then the average could be calculated for each division, and the race length could be adjusted for the following year if it is found that match time length is too slow or unexpectedly fast in one division or another.

I don't know if this is feasible, but perhaps it wouldn't be too hard once the spreadsheet is set up for it, since they already have people entering stuff into computers when matches complete.

Why not do a 5/4 (race to 5 on the winners-4 on the losers) format for the women to at least try it out? They already do a mixed race in the Scotch so it would not be that new of a concept. They can then test it out and see if this impeads the tournament.

I also think they should up the men's entry to 150.00. Not only would it make life a little more fair for all but up the payouts for the men. Since they typically get 1000 entrants or more, that is at least an addition 25,000! I think that is an easy and fair solution.

 

[Cuebacca]

Why not do a 5/4 (race to 5 on the winners-4 on the losers) format for the women to at least try it out? They already do a mixed race in the Scotch so it would not be that new of a concept. They can then test it out and see if this impeads the tournament.

I also think they should up the men's entry to 150.00. Not only would it make life a little more fair for all but up the payouts for the men. Since they typically get 1000 entrants or more, that is at least an addition 25,000! I think that is an easy and fair solution.

I don't see the harm in either of those suggestions. Although I still think the men will want a 6/5 race.

This year was my first year going, and I will likely have to skip next year, so I'm not the best person to speak on behalf of anyone. However, I hope to return in 2009, so I look forward to that, and would love to see a game added to everyone's race (except for the Player Members ).

 

[cuechick]

I would love to get some impute from many of the women on this board who I know play in this event!!

 

[watchez]

Please list all the women events that you play in that have the same race as the men. Anytime there is a women event coinciding with a men's, the race is always shorter.

 

[pdcue]

It has bothered me for a long time that in the BCA Open Women's event, they play a race to 4. Even though we pay the same entry fee as the Men's Open and they get to race to 5. There may have been a day when because of time constraints this may have been necessary but I think that is hardly the case anymore. The level of women's play has risen and I would say most participants would be APA 5s or better, mostly better. Personally, I did not play a women that could not run a table...and it it irks me that this assumtion is being made and accepted.

I really do not think one game makes that much difference in time, but it can make a big difference in the outcome. I did not see any Women's matches that ran long. Including my own hill hill match, that still finished in less than an hour. While I did see many Men's Senior matches run long and even had to be reasigned to another table because they were a match and a half behind! Why aren't they being made to play shorter races?

I do not think it would bother me quite so much if we did not pay the same entry fee. How is that fair?

I think it is time that the BCA wake up and stop treating women players differently!!

Women basketball - a smaller ball
women golf - tees closer to green
women tennis - shorter matches<2 of 3 vs 3 of 5>

are you seeing a trend here?
do you think there is a reason why?

Dale<nonnisdriminator>