What makes the Filipinos SO STRONG!

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Ok,

I understand that they match up a lot for relatively small money and play hard for it to establish the pecking order.

BUT

We have jam up run out players who can and do string racks and can play just about perfect for hours on end.

So my question is this:

Why can our players (US Players) NOT beat the Filipinos when they match up?

Why wouldn't there be a line of US Players at DCC chomping at the bit to get matched up with the Filipino players?

I know it's tough action but surely they can play $500 sets or something? Why wouldn't they be welcoming the opportunity to spar with the Filipinos in the same way that the Filipinos spar with each other?

Why are US Players scared to match up with Filipinos? (and yes I know that any of them will match up when they are backed).

Are there any American players who will play EVEN against any of the Filipinos (besides Shane)?

I would hate to see the DCC come and go with most of the Filipino contingent OUT of action because everyone is afraid to play.
 
I'm guessing (not sure) that its not the stakes that they play for but the fact that the Filipinos are always playing against strong competition. In the US the great players are spread out all over. I think i saw a post from John Schmidt that if all the Americans got together in one place for a month and gambled (small stakes) they'd be just as strong as the Filipinos (or somehting along those lines).

Without being backed, I'm sure a lot of American players can find softer action without playing a Filipino player.

In answer to the question what makes the Filipinos SO STRONG? It's because they are always playing top caliber players, where as American players have to travel long distances to play that quality of player and not for $100, they are usually playing for a couple dimes when they meet up, if it happens.
 
In what game are you talking about? If it's a rotation game, then it's because top Filipino players played 15 ball rotation most of the time. This is specially true when they were growing up and just starting to play. 15 ball rotation is a tough game compared to 10 ball or 9 ball. We do have a different rules. Ball in hand in the kitchen when foul etc..

Filipinos play with all their heart. Life is tough here. They need to win a lot of tournaments not to stay hungry. Their body goes to survival mode I guess.

The table condition in here is not at top quality too. Most of them started playing in slow cloth and dead rails.

In today's reality, Top pros are lucky. What makes them top quality players are because of their managers. Managers here give them basic necessities, even salaries. This makes them more focus on their game and not to be pressured too much.

:smile:
 
One word.

JB Cases said:
Ok,

I understand that they match up a lot for relatively small money and play hard for it to establish the pecking order.

BUT

We have jam up run out players who can and do string racks and can play just about perfect for hours on end.

So my question is this:

Why can our players (US Players) NOT beat the Filipinos when they match up?

Why wouldn't there be a line of US Players at DCC chomping at the bit to get matched up with the Filipino players?

I know it's tough action but surely they can play $500 sets or something? Why wouldn't they be welcoming the opportunity to spar with the Filipinos in the same way that the Filipinos spar with each other?

Why are US Players scared to match up with Filipinos? (and yes I know that any of them will match up when they are backed).

Are there any American players who will play EVEN against any of the Filipinos (besides Shane)?

I would hate to see the DCC come and go with most of the Filipino contingent OUT of action because everyone is afraid to play.


Hunger. WE just ain't hungry enough. Our bellies are too full. Full of pride, full or diet coke, full of meat. "

Ya can't drag a cow down to the water if he don't wanna drink!"
 
I think they are like any other 3rd world country. They need to win to eat. They train for their sports harder because they are hungrier. Americans during and after the depresion were like that. That lasted a long time. For two generations after the late 1920's American players ruled, until everyone thought they were unbeatable. Then in the 1980's or so players from other counties started coming over here. All but the very top American players found out that their game wasn't as good as they thought it was. For years most never took their game to another level from the depresion days. They didn't need to. They thought they were the best and became fat cats.

The same thing has happened in almost every sport that the US use to rule in. Boxing and baseball to name just a few. Bottom line...most players from other counties want it more than US players now. =more heart. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
I think they are like any other 3rd world country. They need to win to eat. They train for their sports harder because they are hungrier. Americans during and after the depresion were like that. That lasted a long time. For two generations after the late 1920's American players ruled, until everyone thought they were unbeatable. Then in the 1980's or so players from other counties started coming over here. All but the very top American players found out that their game wasn't as good as they thought it was. For years most never took their game to another level from the depresion days. They didn't need to. They thought they were the best and became fat cats.

The same thing has happened in almost every sport that the US use to rule in. Boxing and baseball to name just a few. Bottom line...most players from other counties want it more than US players now. =more heart. Johnnyt


I got another word for you. Survival. Sometimes, we are more concerned with success when it's the fundamentals of basic survival skills that are often overlooked. I see it in our kids everyday. Our children are getting weaker and weaker everyday because discipline and respect are practically non-existent in the home. They may be getting smarter and smarter, in this age of information, but man . . . I don't know if it's me, but I am seeing more and more male teenagers out there who want to resemble that feminine look!

Unless you've been out of the country, I don't know if you'd understand my statement. We live in a first class country with first class treatment. Despite all the shortcomings of this world, we have it the best. We are spoiled to the bone. That's why you may hear a foreigner reference to us as being 'Arrogant American Assholes'. America has dominated as a world power for quite a long time, and because we have it all, we are more worried about who's got the nicest and most expensive cue stick (or, the lowest deflecting shaft - my favorite!) as opposed to what really matters which is mastering one's self.

Take a look at Mexico for instance. They come up here, work hard, mowing lawns, washing dishes, and even put some people out of work cause they work twice as hard for half the price. After a while though, Mexican immigrants become accustomed to the 'soft' and comfortable living conditions we are provided with and they become relaxed and lazy. Most any of the other countries especially third world countries have harsh living conditions that force them to survive naturally. When I was at the Olympic Training Center, I hung out and trained with various foreigners and they were just plain tough. I'm talking about most of the South American countries. I fought Venezuela, Mexico, Korea, China, and in general, most of them undergo harsh training conditions and that's all they know. There's a also a deep sense of pride for representing your country. We as Americans have pride for our country too, but it was more motivated by individual success.

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying and translate this into a post dedicated to bashing Americans. I know how some people here can get their panties in a wad in a hurry.

When I watched Team Philippines vs. Team America a long time ago when Sigel, Varner, Rempe, and others were playing vs. Efren, Luat, Andam, Busti, there was a type of synergy felt by the Filipinos that wasn't evident by the Americans. It was like a smooth relay race where the baton was passed with poise and confidence knowing that they were one as a team. When any of the Filipino players stepped up, it was as if you were watching 'Team Philippines' playing. When an American stepped up, it wasn't 'Team America' I was watching. It was Mike Sigel as an individual trying to take on Team Philippines. It is simple. You cannot hide who you are when you're in the spotlight. If you are truly for your country, it will show. If you are truly doing it for yourself, it will show as well.

Take a look at any of the team sports. You will find that many of the team sports have a foreign country that ranks top in the world. We are more interested in ourselves. When we look at all of our celebrity sports heroes, we are talking about individual success, not necessarily American players. Look at Tiger. Michael Jordan (you don't say American Basketball was great, it was Michael Jordan who was great) When you think Team America, what do you think? Dream Team? Michael Phelps and his team members? I honestly can't tell you myself.

I can tell you that Efren is probably the one who has single-handedly inspired a handful of players, which has then has transcended down the pecking order, creating a chain reaction of inspiration that each and every one of those players want to emulate. The Filipinos are also known for a form of stick fighting known as Kali. They are extremely proud of their heritage and they have simple, yet effective means of survival. I believe this is a way of life that any Filipino can relate to.

We have so many money motivated ideas that are constantly throwing us off. We need to re-establish our roots and remember what once made us great as a nation.
 
This is just my opinion on what I've read because I've never been to the Philippines, but it probably has to do with the extreme popularity of the sport there. Can you imagine going to pool halls there where I am sure you could find a vast wealth of information in any of them to improve your game. Even if they weren't willing to show you anything you could still watch and learn.

They're hungrier, have support and have a wealth of resources available to them to get better at pool faster than Americans do. We may have the money, but money won't get you nearly as far as being exposed to the players that the Philippines have playing there unless you wanna travel or live there.
 
I agree with deadgearplyr. I've forgotten what it's like to be poor. I forgot what it's like to not eat that day and I've most definitely forgot what it's like to work.....I mean really work. I remember waking up at 430am, laying block or if someone called sick being a brick laborer, getting home between 7-11pm and going to sleep and this was 7 days a week. I work 12 hour days now and it's nothing compared to the hell I went through then.

I remember laboring all day one day. A dumbass I hired didn't have boots so instead of buying some he was wearing boots 2 sizes too small for him and could barely walk after about two hours. I told him to move block so he wouldn't walk far and now I took his load. Instead of carrying two five gallon buckets of mortar at 75lbs a piece I carried two in each hand which is about 300lbs and carried it for about 200 feet at a trip all day. After about 6 hours I started seeing spots and it started getting dark. I dunked my head in a barrel of water for what seemed like forever. Apparently I kept working, but I don't remember. In fact I don't remember working, driving home or sitting on my bed. A few hours later I woke up on the bed and found out I had a heat stroke.
 
They take TOUGH action.
Here, even the pros, just want the nuts.
I thought King Kong had the nuts on Alcano with him getting 5-6-7.
And one thing they have there is great support from backers and bettors.
 
I think the answer probably has more to do with statistics.

Although there are more Americans playing by virtue of a larger population, there are probably more Phillipinos taking the game up in serious manner with the intent of becoming a professional. This would have a lot to do with exposure to the game at the top level.

Furthermore, as someone stated I think, playing pool can provide a decent income (by their standards) which makes it a viable vocation.

These factors lead to more competition, and while everyone is trying to out do one another the standard slowly rises.

By contrast of the 60 million people who played pool last year in the US, of that number probably 50 million of those people think their buddy who can run three balls a few times a night is a great player.

The situation in the Phillipines is very similar to Snooker in the UK. I think top Snooker players are probably playing their game to a higher level than pool players are playing theirs, simply due to the amount of competition. That said if pool started getting million dollar purses, pool players would be on par with a few years.
 
Any Filipino who reads this thread will probably feel a pinch in their pride. As a Filipino typing this e-mail across the oceans, I will have to agree that poverty is one of the factors to strive for a better life and take the game as a road for survival. As far as motivation, we probably have the answer.

But there are many more factors, among which is the type of game (rotation) that is popular here. In this game, anyone can play against anyone. I've seen Efren play with a spot of 110 points against 10 points of a novice in rotation with considerable Philippine money at stake. It won't happen in any other game where they are expected to run out a rack.

Another factor is the Manager-Player relationship. When a kid can string up five to 6 balls, he's likely to find himself a financier or a manager in the pool joint. With this mercenary training, the kid becomes tough under pressure. Although this relationship has been abused in set-ups with potential managers, reputation keeps them in the trade.

One last factor that I think contributes is that young players do not see success as impossible due to the number of Filipino Pros who are now home and vehicle owners. It is not an impossible dream, so the young ones will to put aside every other ambition in their menu.

But there is another question. Despite the purgatory of the state of Philippine billiards is at now, why is the game successful in this tiny country? Perhaps we can expand the example to Taiwan. It is because we are clannish, so we are easy to unite and to be led by "Managers". Hence, it is easy for the players to be "packaged" for investors and sponsors to support.

Sorry for the long post but this is related:

A misconception that one can earn big money as an organizer in the game has dragged down the momentum of billiards the world over. It is my belief that the only way an organizer can make considerable money in the game is when he has a constant access to a team of pool players capable of pulling in a program that can attract bread and butter sponsors, both domestic and international. Otherwise, exploitation of players will be the vehicle for greed in profit on a per event basis. We have seen that much too often.

Pool can really be lucrative to professional players, but the players need to unite for the organizers to have a program to work with. In the end, the set-up will make everybody happy - player, organizer, sponsor, TV producer and fan.

This is actually the time to bring the players together and come up with a package where sponsors can see the game as an economical and efficient alternative to advertising. You read TV shows being scrapped. TV time is less a seller's market now. It is the right time for pool to penetrate television. I believe that what Dragon is doing now in putting players together is a sound business direction. Likewise with the BMPAP group.

More power to pool!!!
 
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All good answers here, from people who KNOW! I think it is a combination of factors that all come into play.

1. They grow up on Rotation, a much more difficult game than 9-Ball. They develop skills that make 9-Ball seem a relatively easy game.

2. Often they come from impoverished backgrounds, with little chance for success in life, other than being a pool player or a fighter. Without a college education in the Philippines, you are relegated to a very low paying job. And only a select few have the means to get a college education.

3. Individual incomes are very low over there. An average job may pay $45-60 a week, and that's for a 60 hour work week! To have an opportunity to come over here (or anywhere in Asia) and earn many thousands of dollars is a blessing to them. $10,000 US is a small fortune in the Philippines.

4. They hone their skills in an environment where money games are the norm. The filipino players are constantly in action, battling each other for supremacy. Even the top players continually match up against each other. They don't sit around chatting all day in the poolroom, or partaking other hobbies (other than some poker by the more successful players).

5. And yet when they travel abroad, they all stick together and support each other. They know that the success of one is the success of all. If money is won by one player, it will be put in action as soon as they return home to the PI.

6. Efren, Parica and Bustamante have set good examples for them to emulate. The filipino players know that they have an opportunity to be "someone" if they can become a great player. Best example is Alcano, now a "star" in the Philippines. Efren is a national celebrity, known by nearly every filipino worldwide. In the Philippines, top players are famous. Pool is given major media coverage over there.

When I think of #7 I'll post it, but that's enough for now.
 
All good replies. However I still think that America has players who don't lack for knowledge of how to play. The Filipinos grew on rotation ok and as such they become great kickers and bankers - but our players grew up on nine ball which also requires kicking and banking skills. Does anyone believe that Johnny Archer ever looks at a rack of nine ball and doesn't know the right way to play it?

I understand the geograpghy issues, I understand the economic issues and the rest that makes the Filipino player want to win.

But I have to believe that when Gave Owen, Johhny, Rodney, Shane, and the rest of our top players get in the box for any amount then they want to win to, don't they?

So if they really WANT to win then it begs the question of CAN they win?

Shane played Lee Van Corteza in the Phillipines and Lee Van didn't outplay Shane, Shane made more mistakes and gave it away. Lee Van played great pool but if Shane would have not made so many mistakes then the score would have looked otherwise.

I just don't want to believe that our best players are that much weaker than the Filipinos. But when our players duck them or make a lot of mistakes when they do play then I have to wonder.

I am the last person on this board to wrap myself in the flag. This is really more about personal pride than anything. I obviously can't know how a top American player really feels inside on this issue but I feel as though IF I were a top American player then I would be HUNTING down anyone and everyone who wanted to play regardless of their nationality.
 
I mean I am probably just being a sucker with this statement but if I had the dough then I'd take over the DCC action room and install a top American player on each table and invite the players from the rest of the world to step up. $1000 a set for as much as they can win. I'd be willing to bet that the final score of America vs. the World would be closer than many think it might.

Then again I have been known to dive into the world of fantasy pool once in while.
 
It is simple:

The eat, sleep, and drink pool 24 hours a day. You can't compete against that.
 
Most pool halls have two or three top players. They will not play each other or play road players. Maybe the Fillipinos have larger huevos. How many times has the top players in the U. S. matched up and played for the cash?
 
hi

johnny archer and earl strickland,varner sigel etc.
archer alone has won more tourneys than the whole pinoy crew combined.

i dont know where its written in stone that he would lose to them.

for the record we play different games one hole ,14.1 in usa.

if any of the pinoys would like to play onehole,14.1 and 10ball im sure we could have our top 20 play there top 20 and all around.

thats if i can get our top 20 to quit playing golf, poker ,side jobs ,lessons ,dirt biking etc.,

just to be more clear iull play any asian 14.1 i might not win but it will be a tough game, for them and me .

also if the top say 30 pinoys want to play 14.1,10ball,and one hole which are all poolgames then ill play each one of them for a decent amount.

that way we can find out whos the better poolplayer since those are all poolgames.
 
I think the biggest factor is the attitude. In the US, the pro's mentality is Me vs. Them. Filipino pros tend to have the Us vs. Them mindset instead, so they don't mind playing against each other to improve their game. We have too many good players that simply won't play unless there's a lot of cash involved, unlike in the Philippines where really good players will hit balls with each other for beer money.
 
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