What would you have done?

[Mr Slate]

Ok so last night I was playing my APA match and beat my opponent 3-1 in a race to 3. As I'm putting my cue in my case my team captain is talking to the other team captain and looking at me. I walk over to ask what's up and they tell me that since the other team put up their 7 early, they don't have a low enough SL to put up in the final match to comply with the 23 rule. Then they tell me the guy I just beat was actually a SL 2 even though he said he was a 4 (he was a new player but had played before) and asked if I would agree to play one more game against him as a 2, and me a 4 which would mean a hill/hill game. They said that would make it possible for them to play him twice and comply with the rule.
I told my captain that I would have to be an idiot to do so since I already won (playing him as a 4 like he claimed) and I would just be opening myself up to a loss. I told them it wasn't my fault that their team didn't plan correctly and I'm not the one to bail them out.
To make an already long story short...they called the LO and he allowed them to break the 23 rule by playing him again as a 4 in the final match. He beat another 4 on my team for the final match.
My question is what would you have done? Should I have played him in the hill/hill, or was I right to say no?

 

[dabarbr]

This is the dabarbt, the dabarbr's wife, and I am the Captain of the 8 Ball team in Calif. I think you did the right thing by saying NO, and your Captain should have also said no. You may exceed the 23 rule if both teams agree, but this needs to be done prior to start of any matches. Also, in my league there is no draw back, a player can only play once. As to your opponent stating he was a 4 and then a 2, he should not be able to play at all.

The thing to have done was to ask the LO as to what his skill level was and I feel sure if it were me, I would know what my players skill levels are. It appears that the Captain knew all along what he was doing and was trying to pull a slick one.

I have had this happen to me and I have always stood my ground and I will not exceed the 23 rule, not for any team as it is not good practice, as they may think you would always do this for them. It is their loss and my gain if they do not have the correct numbers when they play.

P.S. I just pulled my General Rule book from the APA, and on page 30, #20 it states, You may play only once in a team match. That should have answered the question for both of the team Captains, no matter what the skill level was.

 

[mullyman]

What a steaming crock of sh1t this is. You won the match fair and square. If they want their guy to have a bigger handicap then they should do it from the beginning. After he loses a match is just poor form. I'm on your side with this one.
MULLY

 

[TCIndepMo]

Sounds like you were right in refusing to play again, the other team was wrong (best case - an honest mistake; worst case - flat out cheating)in not declaring their player's correct SL in the first place, and the LO might have been wrong in allowing a double play...

UNLESS

... he has it built into his area local bylaws that double plays are legal. The national rule book does prohibit it but many APA areas can allow the double play as long as it is explained in the local bylaws. APA gives LOs some latitude on things like this as long as it is in the bylaws distributed to all captains.

My area has allowed the double play under certain circumstances for several years. And it's in my bylaws - therefore, it's legal in Kansas City APA.

Another example - National rule book also says 18 is minimum age but many area liquor laws still require 21 as minimum. Covered in my bylaws.

Read the national manual but also be up to date on your area bylaws from the LO.

In your case, who is this other LO? Hard to verify based on only one side of the story.

 

[poolplayer2093]

Ok so last night I was playing my APA match and beat my opponent 3-1 in a race to 3. As I'm putting my cue in my case my team captain is talking to the other team captain and looking at me. I walk over to ask what's up and they tell me that since the other team put up their 7 early, they don't have a low enough SL to put up in the final match to comply with the 23 rule. Then they tell me the guy I just beat was actually a SL 2 even though he said he was a 4 (he was a new player but had played before) and asked if I would agree to play one more game against him as a 2, and me a 4 which would mean a hill/hill game. They said that would make it possible for them to play him twice and comply with the rule.
I told my captain that I would have to be an idiot to do so since I already won (playing him as a 4 like he claimed) and I would just be opening myself up to a loss. I told them it wasn't my fault that their team didn't plan correctly and I'm not the one to bail them out.
To make an already long story short...they called the LO and he allowed them to break the 23 rule by playing him again as a 4 in the final match. He beat another 4 on my team for the final match.
My question is what would you have done? Should I have played him in the hill/hill, or was I right to say no?

you did the right thing. why try it when all you could do was lose

 

[mm4pool]

you did right in refusing to reopen your match, no good could come from it. the local by laws here do allow for a player to play twice during the first four weeks of session. i am not sure how once a player is declared as a 4 they can come back and claim him as a 2?

Mike

 

[Thunderball]

Not a chance in hell I'd get back into a match I had already won.

 

[Roadking]

Cheating

Something similar happened in my apa league. Both teams agreed to break the 23 rule but the L.O. didnt know about it. Well weeks later other teams complained & both teams lost all points for that nite,knocking the one team out of first place. I find it hard to believe your L.O. would allow any team to break the 23 rule.

 

[justadub]

That's really goofy. Your LO is one of the people who give APA a bad name, by screwing around like this, allowing him not only to play twice (OK, if the bylaws allow it, thats cool, though I don't know why you would have such a rule...) but TO CHANGE HIS HANDICAP? Over the phone? Mid-Match?

sheesh...

You did the right thing by not re-opening your match. You played it to completion, by the parameters that were set before your match started. Everything else about that is, well, goofy...

 

[Scott Lee]

I admit that I haven't looked at an APA scoresheet in a long time. That said, as a former APA LO, the scoresheets CLEARLY indicated what the s/l of each player on each team was, for the week's play in question. Is it no longer like that? I don't understand how this could happen if the skill levels are already printed on the scoresheets.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[TX Poolnut]

You did the right thing. Your Team Captain shouldn't have even asked you to submit to their request.

 

[dr9ball]

I admit that I haven't looked at an APA scoresheet in a long time. That said, as a former APA LO, the scoresheets CLEARLY indicated what the s/l of each player on each team was, for the week's play in question. Is it no longer like that? I don't understand how this could happen if the skill levels are already printed on the scoresheets.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott, the OP stated that the player was a "New" player. I can see this situation unfolding as he's new to that area and so no one knows his skill level and he starts as a 4 as a "new" player, then later he "remembers" he used to be a SL 2 and now wants to play one more game in the match.

New players you add to a team won't have a SL on the sheet especially if you add them that night. They should have found out his old SL before the match started and listed him as a former player with SL 2 handicap in my opinion.

Once the match is played the match is played. I think the OP was correct in refusing to play one more game which effectively changed the handicap mid match. The player was listed as a 4 and lost as a 4.

 

[justadub]

Scott, the OP stated that the player was a "New" player. I can see this situation unfolding as he's new to that area and so no one knows his skill level and he starts as a 4 as a "new" player, then later he "remembers" he used to be a SL 2 and now wants to play one more game in the match.

New players you add to a team won't have a SL on the sheet especially if you add them that night. They should have found out his old SL before the match started and listed him as a former player with SL 2 handicap in my opinion.

Once the match is played the match is played. I think the OP was correct in refusing to play one more game which effectively changed the handicap mid match. The player was listed as a 4 and lost as a 4.

I agree.

Although I still don't remember seeing how a male can be an SL2 in the first place. Perhaps another local bylaw?

 

[Mr Slate]

I admit that I haven't looked at an APA scoresheet in a long time. That said, as a former APA LO, the scoresheets CLEARLY indicated what the s/l of each player on each team was, for the week's play in question. Is it no longer like that? I don't understand how this could happen if the skill levels are already printed on the scoresheets.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

We are still in the first 4 weeks of the summer session. This allows a team to add players if they need to. He was a new player (to this team) and was not yet printed on the score sheet.Thus there was no printed skill level for him. I guess he wanted to be a SL 4 before he started and changed his mind during our match.

That's really goofy. Your LO is one of the people who give APA a bad name, by screwing around like this, allowing him not only to play twice (OK, if the bylaws allow it, thats cool, though I don't know why you would have such a rule...) but TO CHANGE HIS HANDICAP? Over the phone? Mid-Match?

sheesh...

You did the right thing by not re-opening your match. You played it to completion, by the parameters that were set before your match started. Everything else about that is, well, goofy...

In the LO's defense, he didn't allow the team to change the players SL. The player was kept as a SL 4 in the final set. He did however allow him to play twice in the match. I will check the bylaws to see what their policy is regarding that.


I'd like to thank all of you that posted such a quick response to my question. It's nice to know I have a place to ask these kind of things and actually get an educated answer.

 

[Maniac]

I admit that I haven't looked at an APA scoresheet in a long time. That said, as a former APA LO, the scoresheets CLEARLY indicated what the s/l of each player on each team was, for the week's play in question. Is it no longer like that? I don't understand how this could happen if the skill levels are already printed on the scoresheets.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

As a Captain of an APA 9-ball team, I can tell you that I get scoresheets in my packet that have pre-printed players names (NOT the write-in kind) with a ZERO where their skill level goes. It makes me scratch my head. They either already have a skill level from a previous APA session somewhere in their past, or are completely new to the APA (in which case a male should start out as a SL4). But a ZERO???? What the heck am I supposed to do with that? Next time I get one of those, I'm calling the Division Representative and get a skill level number. Geeesh!!!

Maniac

 

[Maniac]

I guess he wanted to be a SL 4 before he started and changed his mind during our match.

He can't "want" to be anything. He is either new to the APA (starts out his FIRST match as a SL4) or he should already have a SL rating. Even if he has only played ONE match he SHOULD have a rating printed on the scoresheet next to his name. If he did not, then someone (more than likely the LO) has fallen down on the job. Weird things do seem to happen in the APA though (see my previous post). An exception to this situation (new player) is that I have seen players who knew they were good, or their Captains knew they were good, come in at a higher skill level than a SL4. This is fairly rare in my area though.

And....I gotta agree with another poster. A male SL2???? This guy pretty much should not have had enough basic skills to even have won the one game. If he went down from a SL4 to a SL2 in short time, he should not be a very good player, an 8-inning (or more) per game type of player.

Maniac

 

[Mr Slate]

He can't "want" to be anything. He is either new to the APA (starts out his FIRST match as a SL4) or he should already have a SL rating. Even if he has only played ONE match he SHOULD have a rating printed on the scoresheet next to his name. If he did not, then someone (more than likely the LO) has fallen down on the job. Weird things do seem to happen in the APA though (see my previous post). An exception to this situation (new player) is that I have seen players who knew they were good, or their Captains knew they were good, come in at a higher skill level than a SL4. This is fairly rare in my area though.

And....I gotta agree with another poster. A male SL2???? This guy pretty much should not have had enough basic skills to even have won the one game. If he went down from a SL4 to a SL2 in short time, he should not be a very good player, an 8-inning (or more) per game type of player.

Maniac

Agreed........I said "wan't" meaning he probably knew his SL and just didn't say anything. This all could have been avoided if they had their act together IMO.
As far as a man being a SL 2, I've never seen it before but I do know that this guy was not a 2. He got down to the eight ball as fast as I did. I can see him getting lucky once in a while but not on almost every game and he never should have beat our SL 4 in the last set.

 

[TCIndepMo]

If a player has NEVER played APA before he/she will print on the scoresheet as a SL zero for thar first night. Not because his SL is literally a zero, but because on the first night males count as SL 4 and females start as SL 3 and the system can not tell the difference until the application is processed after turn in. This is how the software is set up for first night play. And remember - APA is NOT saying the new guy really is a SL 4 on night one - but that he counts as a SL 4 for purposes of the 23 RULE. You have no APA handicap until after LO has processed your first score sheet and the mathematics generated by that first piece of paper have put the new player into one of the SL categories. Everyone is subject to change after every time they play - but you knew that.

As for the existence of male SL 2 - some APA areas allow it, some don't. APA leaves this up to the LO. If no male 2's allowed, it should be reflected in local bylaws. These guys really do exist - they are rare, but they're out there.

In Vegas minimum male SL is always 3, even if back home you were a 2.

The local bylaws are very valuable to each area, IMO. They allow LOs to set there own local requirements for make ups, bad weather cancels, double plays, play off formats, allow wildcards or not, amount of weekly fees, sportsmanship penalties, protest procedure, order of play, stuff like that. We must be consistent in enforcement and submit the bylaws each year to APA for approval. Players in my area pay $6 a night, while a thousand miles away players might pay $5 or $8, or whatever. This is why teams that make it to Vegas do not all receive the exact same travel money from their LO - different number of teams in each area have been paying in different dollar amount for past year, etc.

If you're in your APA local tournament - good luck. My finals are later today.

 

[CMD]

I did not read any other response so forgive me if this has been answered.

The rule is to go by the paperwork. It does not matter what either captain says. If a male player is new he starts as a 4. If he has an established (meaning more than 10 matches) he plays at whatever that shill level is. Whether it is 7 or 3. What was the handicap on the paperwork?

I was a double jeopardy captain for almost 10 years. I have had this fight at least 10 - 15 times.



Chris

 

[Mr Slate]

I did not read any other response so forgive me if this has been answered.

The rule is to go by the paperwork. It does not matter what either captain says. If a male player is new he starts as a 4. If he has an established (meaning more than 10 matches) he plays at whatever that shill level is. Whether it is 7 or 3. What was the handicap on the paperwork?

I was a double jeopardy captain for almost 10 years. I have had this fight at least 10 - 15 times.



Chris

None...He was a write in. They allow that in the first 4 weeks of play.