Whats the difference....?

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Between an amature and a pro in pool????


Jason K-Wood jumps up and plays John Schmit heads up for $20,000 in the middle and is in the game most of the time, I have seen him play better than he did the other night. JS has played better too, I congraduate him on winning. It was a great match they played, no body was stealing. True the "Pro" did win but i'm a amature and I cant get to 20 playing JS or K-Wood in a race to 100.

At the end K-Wood joked and jokeingly said "I'll play any amature" or something close to that.

I have spoke to both of them since the match and congratulated them. There was no loser in that match it could have went the other way if they raced to 120 who knows???

But it got me thinking how is it that 2 closely matched players have different ranking status, JS won the US Open, is that why he is a pro? In golf there are specific guidlines that define the ranking of pros and the rest of the players, at least I think there is. With computers a system could be set up and managed easily in a data base format that could make it easy to determine who is a pro by what they have achieved in specific events, not action that dosent count. Or something similar. I know the pool tours in the south are having problems with amature events or the same guy(Larry) wining most of the events, they neet to have a 2 level format it seems open and not open. I'm not knocking Larry, I really like him and am damn proud of him for doing what he is doing and has accomplished, but it does make it harder to fill a tournment when you know who is gonna win it, its a handful to figure this all out, Larry is a Pro-I think. See this is the problem who is and who isnt and WHY??? Archer and Earl speak for themselfs...

I know for a fact there are Pro's that cant beat K-Wood and there are a couple amatures that might have the best of it playing JS. So its possible for someone if they wanted to stay amature would have to avoid playing some events-is this why there is no system set up? so guys can fly under the radar? to me thats a weak excuse now with the internet, K-Wood outed himself the other night, he was already known. so he is a bad example.

Back to the originoal question why is JHS a pro and K-wood isnt? or other players for that matter.

And again my congrats to John S. and K-Wood, these 2 great players are my friends and there was no loser in their match. The both have a Private house at "Casa de Fatboy" anytime they are in Vegas.
 
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The difference between an amatuer & a pro, as it stands today, is one convinces him/herself that he/she can make a living playing pool and the other knows better. :cool:
 
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CrownCityCorey said:
The difference between an amatuer & a pro, as it stands today, is one convinces him/herself that he/she can make a living pool and the other knows better. :cool:

So who's smarter? :)
 
Fatboy said:
Jason K-Wood jumps up and plays John Schmit heads up for $20,000 in the middle and is in the game most of the time,

I have spoke to both of them since the match and congratulated them. There was no loser in that match it could have went the other way if they raced to 120 who knows???


Sorry if this is off topic but ........Huh?????

What???....Did he give the money back or something...

Seems to me that there was not just a loser but a BIG loser...20K isnt just pocket change to quite a large number of people...

that is some serious GREEN
 
Pool is the pro's job and workin 40-60 per week in some hellhole is the amatuer....
It's the best i could think of...
 
A pro is on a pro tour,if an amateur start playing on the pro tours then he can be considered a pro even if he might not be there yet.I think UJ Pucket was an amateur that could have played with any pro,some of these guys back in the day wouldnt go pro,they would stay amateur and perhaps win there state championship. :cool:
 
I think the different between amateur and professional is obvious but Pro and "semi-pro" or "open" is not. The way I see it is consistent performance. An open play CAN beat a professional any day of the week, and vice-versa. But the professional is just a more consistent player. In pool, the line is very blurry for me to judge speeds. As a C player, I can easily see the difference between me and a D player and a B player, but the difference between an A player and a professional seems harder to gauge and usually boils down to how badly they beat me and how much of a spot they offer.
 
BRKNRUN said:
Sorry if this is off topic but ........Huh?????

What???....Did he give the money back or something...

Seems to me that there was not just a loser but a BIG loser...20K isnt just pocket change to quite a large number of people...

that is some serious GREEN

alot of the BIG GREEN was mine, my point is they were closely matched and anyone could have won, so it appeared. $20,000 isnt that much anyways, if you live in LA, NYC, and dont eat Ramin noodles and own a car if you do that $20K sadly aint gonna go to far. Thats not the point or discussion here anyways. were not discussing what $20,000 means to one person or another person, we can make a thread about that if you like.:smile:


So would have Jason been a Pro because he beat a pro for enough $$$ to live on for some specific period of time?? What if they were playing for $5/game and Jason won $100 20 games ahead-really beating JS bad and then taking his $100 over and beating Efren 10 games of 1P for $100 heads up. Now our Boy Jason Kirkwood just beat 2 Pros bad 30 game winner and has $1000 to show for it minus $125 for beer ;). is he now a pro?


Suppose I play Harry Platis for $100,000/game 9 ball banks and win $500,000 then fire it at Archie race to 15 9B and Archie blows 2 sets off to me, I just made $1,500,000.

So I'm feeling good about my self and call JS tell him to get his ass of the golf course and come play me some 14.1 to 150 for $50,000 a game, I have 30 barrels and it takes him 15 days to bust me, I never win a game. Now I'm busted, JS has $1,520,000, and Jason has a good buzz going because Bartrum beat Deshane and has been buying the beer.


So I won and lost $1,500,000 am I a pro? or if I kept the $1,500,000 and lived comfortably playing in $100 regonal tournments the rest of my life never cashing once but am still playing and living off my score FROM pool I'm a pro???

no!

This is the problem, tieing $$$ to ones ability to play is a poor way of defining a pro in this day and time.
 
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From what I read on AZB, there are no professionals in the U.S.A.

No added money. Only money circulated amongst the players.

Entry fees from the many to provide modest prize money to the few.:D :D :D
 
Fatboy said:
This is the problem, tieing $$$ to ones ability to play is a poor way of defining a pro in this day and time.

Tying one's poolplaying ability to being a pro is the primary mistake I see.

Many of us know players that never play in pro tournaments; however their game/ability are there at that top level. Are they pro's? No.

Still, in the US, without a defined pro tour to set standards, we are all amateurs.
 
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Scaramouche said:
From what I read on AZB, there are no professionals in the U.S.A.

No added money. Only money circulated amongst the players.


Entry fees from the many to provide modest prize money to the few.:D :D :D

No added money? False. Most tours have money added, whether it's the tour operator or the room owner. They add money because it's business (in addition to the fact that they like the players because they bring in business). As for money circulated amongst the players... have you ever heard of a backer? ... sometimes they remove the risk from the player and provide cash inflow. Also, bangers in pro-am events also provide the cash necessary for 'professional' income.


Also, I'll quote "professional" for everyone who'd like to know what this word really means.

pro?fes?sion?al Audio Help /prəˈfɛʃənl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”
7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.
8. of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.
9. done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.
–noun 10. a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions.
11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.
12. an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.
13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.
 
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CrownCityCorey said:
Still in the US, without a defined pro tour to set standards, we are all amateurs.


thats what I thought, I had a 2 1/2 hour conversation with a Pro about this last night-not Johnny, thats not all we talked about of course but we did discuss the lack of orginazition here in America to really define a pro, So because he didnt really have a definitive answere I started this thread hoping that there would be some light shed on my question. Seems everyone had a different answer-thats what I feared.

I'm too busy with my own problems to come up with a solution, and for those who do have the time who's gonna pay them to figure it out and organize it??? Thats the age old problem with pool not enough $$$-for the players, organizers, room owners, manufactors etc. Too many "Something for nothing" mentality people, but who can blame them alot of times they are what make up pool, it sure as hell aint a rich guys world/sport or marketable on TV etc. Which is a damn shame. There is no one to blame its just a fact and aall we can do is our best with what we have. And make the best of it, with out trying to chop the next up thats in the same business, if tour guys got along better that would help, the cue makers did it in the earily 90's as I remember with the Cue Makers Assicotion, the girls have a solid thing going, cooperation not confrontation will help pool alot, its all we have to work with so chopping up the other guy hurts us all in the end.


but back to the Pro thing somerthing does need to be done, like Base Ball they have A -AAA then minor league etc, I dont know much about it but point is they have a system period!!!
 
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CrownCityCorey said:
Tying one's poolplaying ability to being a pro is the primary mistake I see.

Many of us know players that never play in pro tournaments; however their game/ability are there at that top level. Are they pro's. No.

Still in the US, without a defined pro tour to set standards, we are all amateurs.

Right. Vern Elliot was recently inducted into the One Pocket Hall of Fame and never played in a "pro tournament" in his life as far as I know.

Most repuatble amateur event promoters will exclude top speed roadies even if they don't play in "pro" events.

They probably don't exclude enough such players but many of the obvious ones are often excluded by name.

Regards,
Jim
 
CrownCityCorey said:
The difference between an amatuer & a pro, as it stands today, is one convinces him/herself that he/she can make a living playing pool and the other knows better. :cool:

That's a great line!

Chris
 
tigerseye...That's a poor example. George Breedlove works 40-60 hrs. a week at his furniture business, but is still a PRO player. It has to do with the skill level. Jason Kirkwood is a pro player, the same as John Schmidt is a pro player.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

tigerseye said:
Pool is the pro's job and workin 40-60 per week in some hellhole is the amatuer....
It's the best i could think of...
 
the difference

The difference between pro and amateur is only in your own perception and other people's perception although I suppose when you are banned from amateur play that makes you a pro by definition.

I have taken down a few pro's because I never considered there to be anything special about them. Some other people that play as well or better than I did roll over and die playing a pro because they define themselves as amateurs and put the pro's on a pedestal.

I have to agree that without a way for the top fifty or one hundred players minimum to make a living competing pool is only an amateur game or sport in the US.

Hu
 
CrownCityCorey said:
The difference between an amatuer & a pro, as it stands today, is one convinces him/herself that he/she can make a living playing pool and the other knows better. :cool:
Like they say on the family feud game show "good answer, good answer"
 
Fatboy said:
Between an amature and a pro in pool????


Jason K-Wood jumps up and plays John Schmit heads up for $20,000 in the middle and is in the game most of the time, I have seen him play better than he did the other night. JS has played better too, I congraduate him on winning. It was a great match they played, no body was stealing. True the "Pro" did win but i'm a amature and I cant get to 20 playing JS or K-Wood in a race to 100.

At the end K-Wood joked and jokeingly said "I'll play any amature" or something close to that.

I have spoke to both of them since the match and congratulated them. There was no loser in that match it could have went the other way if they raced to 120 who knows???

But it got me thinking how is it that 2 closely matched players have different ranking status, JS won the US Open, is that why he is a pro? In golf there are specific guidlines that define the ranking of pros and the rest of the players, at least I think there is. With computers a system could be set up and managed easily in a data base format that could make it easy to determine who is a pro by what they have achieved in specific events, not action that dosent count. Or something similar. I know the pool tours in the south are having problems with amature events or the same guy(Larry) wining most of the events, they neet to have a 2 level format it seems open and not open. I'm not knocking Larry, I really like him and am damn proud of him for doing what he is doing and has accomplished, but it does make it harder to fill a tournment when you know who is gonna win it, its a handful to figure this all out, Larry is a Pro-I think. See this is the problem who is and who isnt and WHY??? Archer and Earl speak for themselfs...

I know for a fact there are Pro's that cant beat K-Wood and there are a couple amatures that might have the best of it playing JS. So its possible for someone if they wanted to stay amature would have to avoid playing some events-is this why there is no system set up? so guys can fly under the radar? to me thats a weak excuse now with the internet, K-Wood outed himself the other night, he was already known. so he is a bad example.

Back to the originoal question why is JHS a pro and K-wood isnt? or other players for that matter.

And again my congrats to John S. and K-Wood, these 2 great players are my friends and there was no loser in their match. The both have a Private house at "Casa de Fatboy" anytime they are in Vegas.

Fatboy, lets start with Kirkwood. Right now I'm just winging it so please bare with me.

Kirkwood Stats according to AZ:

2008 Tournament Results:
Payout Place Event
$785 10th place Derby City Classic Banks Division
$960 2nd place Joss NE 9-Ball Tour Stop
$1,400 1st place Joss NE 9-Ball Tour Stop
$1,300 1st place Predator Tour Stop
$1,300 1st place Colorado 9-Ball Championship
$550 9th place Seminole Florida Pro Tour Stop
$2,200 1st place Midwest 9-Ball Tour Stop


The stats above already disqualify him as an Amateur based on the Viking Tour guidelines. Does that mean he is a Pro ? Lets dig a litter deeper.

2006 Winnings: 46,532
2006 Tournament Results:
Payout Place Event
$4,000 2nd place Derby City Bank Division
$400 13th place US Bar Table Championships 9-Ball Division
$750 9th place US Bar Table Championships 8-Ball Division
$17,000 19th place IPT North American Open Championship
$24,382 29th place IPT World Open 8-Ball Championship

2005 Tournament Results:
Payout Place Event
$1,675 1st place Windy City Open 9 Ball Open
$1,150 3rd place Windy City Open 8 Ball Open

2004 Tournament Results:
Payout Place Event
$750 13th place Glass City Open

2003 Tournament Results:
Payout Place Event
$2,225 1st place Fast Eddie's 9-Ball Tour Stop 5

2002 Tournament Results:
Payout Place Event
$950 3rd place Music City Classic 9-Ball



Do the above stats classify him as a PRO. Under some guidelines YES, Under others NO. Would I consider Kirkwood a Pro ? NO, even though his 19th and 29th place finishes in the IPT events along with his wins and High finishes in predominately Pro Caliber events do signify he is a PRO. However he still lacks 1 key element. That would be winning an all PRO event or a CHAMPIONSHIP such as the US Open or a WPA, IPT, PBT or heck even a WPBA event. I rate Kirkwood as a AAA player.


Now here is a question for you.

I rate players like this in my personal data base:

PRO
AAA
AA
A
B
C
D
Beginner

Under this standard (mine) and knowing that we will never have a fully structured system like this without MAJOR funding in cue sports what category would you put Kirkwood in if I rated players on more of a combined level like the one below.

PRO Player = PRO, AAA, AA
Open = A, B
Amateur = C, D, Beginner

Under my system I am a C player, Brian White is an A player (have you been keeping up with that BW thing ?) Kirkwood is an AAA player, Putnam is a PRO, Leil Gay is currently an AA player, Stevie Moore is a AAA player, Archer, Strickland, Souquet are Pros. Just a few ideas on player speeds.


Now under the 2nd rating system how would you rate Kirkwood and Schmidt: PRO Player, Open Player or Amateur Player ?

Also, my system is just my system. It's flawed just like most things I do but I have been working on it for close to 2 decades. Please do not tell me I am wrong but if you have any constructive ideas, I would live to hear them.

Mj
 
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A little off subject Mike, but I think you should give yourself more credit and put yourself up some from a C player. By your rating of yourself as a C player, your basically saying you're almost at the bottom of all of the scales listed and that is doing yourself an injustice. Of course these are just my opinions.
 
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