whats wrong with pool yada yada etc

I think the players are partially to blame for being so boring and then the big wigs even more so for not changing the game to become marketable for tv.

We need more Keith McCready types and a different pool game that isn't so boring. They figured out that straight pool was too boring and nine ball rules needed to be expressed so I have faith that pocket billiards will evolve into something that will work for tv one day and the players will be much better off.
 
Good to see the AZ Billiards community in general "gets it". The typical pool hall has over the years catered to the lowest common factor thus making it an activity low income people can afford. By doing this we make the equipment worse, the profit almost nil and the clientle moral standards non existent. The pool community wants big payouts with no entry free. They want free pool time and to pay $1 for beers. They want big business or "someone else" to support their habit. Whether that is a sponsor or the guys at the bar drinking heavily so the owner can afford to have cheap pool. Players complain about a place having no action yet they havent brought in a customer in years. They want the pool room to supply rich suckers on a daily basis. Most expectations of the community at large has become completely unrealistic. That is why our sport has been shrinking for years in the US. After it hits bottom I hope the next generation of players and bangers both realize it takes a bit of investment in time and money to grow the sport in the right direction.
 
I agree with most of John's point, even if I'm not into dirt bikes or any other motorsports. But there's such a big difference in cost of equipment between pool and bikes/cars and I don't think that's the best comparison.

Tennis is huge all over the world, many of us don't know which racket Federer or Nadal play with, but we all know they wear Nike clothes. Same for Tiger Woods. I think it's still a matter of media (tv) coverage, and the commercial target is "the fan" and not "the player".

Pool should be broadcasted more on tv, that's where money still come from. Live internet streaming is not enough yet.
I.e., in 2006 I first met John Schmidt in VA. I came over there from Italy to play in the US Open. John won it. I couldn't read a single line about that on any national newspaper the days after (but there were daily results on high school lacrosse).

Money would come to pool if a massive marketing campaign would be done by the governing bodies, finding deals with medias and tv. Different tries, like changing the rules or the equipment would be just maybe a little, temporary improvement but not the big thing we're all waiting for imo.

I want to give you an example last, because it fits this topic I think. Here in Italy the most popular cue sport is called 5 pins. It's played on no-pockets tables and their cues are very different. It's all production cues (no custom), made in a lot of different composites (carbon-glass-woodcomp-carbonwood and many more), 2 or 3 pieces, and every company comes out with a different cue every like 6 months. Usually the cues are named after pro players names, the average price is around $5-600 and people buy them. It's all a joke, because "average Joe"...ehm..."Mario" buys like 2-3 cues a year to stay up to date with new technology, but we all know it's just a smart business from the industry.
I don't know one single 5 pins pro player that became rich after that. Some of them now play poker, some work in billiard halls, some give lessons and most of them still gamble to make a living.
5 pins lived its only good time when their pro tour was televised on a big channel for a couple of years (about 10 years ago). Once that deal expired, they went back to anonymity and no more money.

If John would play on national tv, or pics of his wins were on USA Today, maybe just a few would know that he plays with OB Cues, but maybe a Pepsi patch would appear on his shirt and he would have finally credit for his talent and efforts.

Sorry for my English and for the length of this post.

(hey John, Happy New Year:))

Francesco
 
Pretty hard to compare Dirt Biking and Pool..

Its like comparing Morphine to Bendryll...

Guys are still the main targets in each industry and guys spend more for
excitement.

You really want to see money flow.. Count all the $$$ wasted in strip bars
and massage joints around the US in a week. Theres some overhead but
the strippers often PAY to work!!


IMO pool lacks excitement. Watching 9ball or 10 ball is dull. However everything I see people play the ghost it draws attention and EVERY rack counts.

I would like to see a 10ghost tourney.. Pros of course.
First player to get 5 ahead of the other. Each player has a chance to
tie or counter the other's runout.
If after 1.5 hours no one is 5 ahead then whoever is in the lead gets first break and its first to run 3 alternating break.

Not sure if it could work but I know I would love to watch the offensive play and the creativeness needed.


It could alos make a great TAR event. 10 Ghost.. 30 ahead or something like that. Maybe less maybe more. After a time limit or game limit then go to a race or a lesser ahead set.
Anything to get the endorphines popping.
 
I think billiards (pool) must have been the American sport 80 to 100 years ago. Just look at the thousands of pool hall that were around back then. I know in the mid-west every little town had at least one pool hall. I'm not sure why our sport has lost its popularity, I'm sure there are lots of reasons. Short sightedness of leaders of this industry. Too focused on immediate profits instead of long term health of the sport. Promotion and idolization of the seedy side of our sport. The two most popular movies about our sport are set in a world of gambling, hustling, and violence. Is this really where most Americans want their children to spent time?

Today one of the most popular activities seems to be poker. I think the promoters have done an incredible job. This activity is in front of people on TV, the internet, almost every where. Look at the World Series of Poker. An average Joe has won that several times. These average Joes think nothing about going to the casino and play a cash game or signing up for tourny. Why? I think, at least in their minds, they have a chance of winning. These same average Joes would not even consider going to the pool hall and playing a game, especially against someone they didn't know. Why? I think because most people associate pool with hustling. I'm not necessarily against hustling, I just think its going to be difficult to attract and retain players if they perceive they will be hustled (no one wants to be the sucker). Now, its may not be fair to compare poker, to some degree a game of chance, to pool a game of skill.

Why has golf attained its lofty place in our society. A leisure activity spent with friends, family, and co-workers. I'm sure there is a seedy side of golf also. There is probably more money hustled in golf on a Monday morning (world wide) than in pool the entire year.

I believe others have already stated that time equals skill. I think this is another contributing factor. Most people are not willing or do not have time to devote to this sport to achieve a desired level of performance. Put most 12 year old children on a pool table for 2 hours then give those same 12 year old children an X-Box or PS2 for 2 hours - which activity do you think most of these children will want to continue with? However, what if a young child's hero (there mom and dad) is a pool player. I want to believe pool wins.

I think social pool leagues are a very important part of our sport. I know many of us don't like some of the things that go on (me included). But, these leagues do serve a purpose and I hate to think where our sport would be without them.

I'm sorry for the long post to try an answer a simple question of how to increase the dollars in our sport, but i think its a pretty simple answer - more participants equals more dollars. The hard part is how we attract and retain more participants.

Now I'm more guilty than anyone at not bring more people to our sport. I have not taught either of my daughters. Primarily two reasons: 1) I don't have a home table; and 2) I will not take my daughters to a smoke filled pool hall and subject them to the seedy side of our sport. I don't think I'm alone in this thought and I believe it is a huge impediment.

I know there are a lot of people who enjoy the bad boy image with the hustling, drugs, and violence but the trend in our sport is not favorable. And, if the trend continues, these bad boys may not have anyone left to play or anywhere left to play.

Our sport desperately needs the acceptance of main stream America. Where young families go to the local pool hall and spend quality time together. Where parents sponsor their children in pool related activities that they will be able to participate in the rest of their lives. Where business outings and office parties are held. Where stay at home moms and dads can get together in the afternoon for a tourny or league. In my opinion, unless we change the image of our sport, the future looks pretty bleak. The trend does not look favorable.

Again, sorry for the long post.

Steven
 
you got a good point 80yrs ago there was something like 300-400 registered places to play pool in chicago.....thats pretty dam strong
 
mass appeal and room for spectators at live venues

Two things, one pool doesn't have mass appeal for watchers. One day we might have a fix for that. The other thing, pool doesn't allow for a large audience at a live finals. Just the nature of the beast, the small playing field and small balls. If we are going to be watching it on the big screen anyway why pay big dollars to go to a venue to watch?

When we get to the matches that matter, the semi's and finals, there is only room for a few hundred people at most to watch and actually see what is going on if we had a complex built particularly for putting on pool events. I noticed Wrigley Field or another baseball field turned into a hockey rink recently. The fans are miles away from the rink for the most part. Might work for a once or twice a year event for the novelty, I can't see people paying to watch from the next county when they can watch up close and personal at other venues.

We are closer to bowling than any other sport and we are seen by potential sponsors as appealing to a lower income bracket than even bowling. Pro bowling failed and only the taking over by a cash rich sugar daddy that laid down the laws as to how things would be done saved it, at least for the short term. Too soon to say that it is in decent shape.

We could compare pool to dirt tracking, cars or bikes. Racing, we have action over a large enough area to satisfy a large crowd. Also, there is nothing like being at an event, being in the moment. The smells of hot rubber, clay, and racing fuels, the sounds, the excitement of not knowing what is going to happen next. These grab the spectators. Pool we have the mild interest of the break then methodical play. I won't talk about the sights and smells where most pool is played.

I think our best hope is to build pool from within. Pool is an entertaining game for millions. Form a double breasted organization and give players a route to move from amateur to pro with some big amateur events at the end of a season. Have a small amount from every amateur entry fee go to finance the pro tour. Have a single comprehensive set of rules, or only slightly modified to accommodate coin op and open tables. There must be a hard division between pro's and amateurs at most events with only a few open events offered a year.

Finally, we need neatly dressed well mannered players that are excited about what they are doing. Players can be passionate without being jerks. Unfortunately most players, including myself, have trained themselves not to show emotion because it can give the competition an edge. Good for gambling, good for competition, lousy for audience appeal.

Realistically, we have to grow pool from the inside until it is attractive to larger and larger sponsors. The only way it is attractive to sponsors is if they can see a return on investment. We are daydreaming when we think somebody is going to sweep in with a barrel of money and make everything right in the pool world.

Hu
 
greyghost said:
i know i was only piking john. You make a valid point tho...just look at how many leaguers and nits go to the pool hall and drink only TAP water and then want free table time.

The money is there in the sport....the companies don't share it
Click to expand...

You're not so far from the truth there. When the manufacturers were making big money selling cues and tables etc., they had a chance to make pro pool a much bigger sport. It would have only made their businesses that much bigger. But they dogged it. Big time! And now they're paying the price for that years later.
 
"CaliRed". said:
John,

someone's making some money from pool, because there are a lot people on here that have 10 or more high priced cues, everyone has more than 1 case that made out of the hide of a albania waffle mouse's underbelly, they got 9 ball keychains, 34 different kinds of cuetip tappers and shapers, they got t-shirts, custom pool balls, 9 ball and 14.1 and 10 ball racks, they got custom pool tables where they hired some snake guy to travel thousands of miles to set it up......etc....

What they REALLY need is more rock star personalities like the Who or Jimi to destroy their equipment after their performance.

Picture Mika after the US Open.. he sinks the last ball and goes on a terror... breaking his cue into 28 pieces, jumping up and down on his $3000.00 case, flinging his gear into the crowd and finishing up with some lighter fluid on the break and jump cues.

Now THAT will bring in some sponsers and money!:grin:
Click to expand...

My favorite post by far! :grin:
 
Well then if i win the Tulsa one hole tourney (long shot lmao) I'm going to rip my shirt off smear peanut butter all over myself like Iggy Pop, shatter my cues like the WHO and burn table #3 down with some Hendrix inspired Voodoo.


burnt to pieces,
Grey Ghost
 
Some of my thoughts on challenges pool need to overcome to be more popular amongst main stream america. It definitely is a possiblity given the popularity of the sport in certain countries in asia. However does geography play into it a litte? Taiwan, Singapore and Philippines all are congested and majority of population live in large cities with limited access to outdoor activities.

Agree that its not a great spectator sport for the large arenas.
Bass and other tournament fishing seem to have over come that. It's pretty difficult to follow your favorite bass pro to all his tourney's. I think the wow factor is the same as pool if not less??? How exciting is it to watch some guy stand there with his line in the water waiting for a bite, yet its on tv all the time.

Appreciation of the gameUnless you play pool it's hard for the public to appreciate the difficulty of shots employed with english or general position play. How many people when they see 9 ball on espn are aware that the players are shooting balls in order?

Marketing of the game. Not sure what the correct formula is for the industry or pool hall owners individually or in uniformed fashion to advertise the game to the general public. None of the local pool halls in NY advertise in any paper or magazines that I have ever seen. There are 8 million people in the 5 boroughs and how many pool halls are there? Maybe 10 and how many tables does the largest pool hall have. Definitely enough consumers for 400 - 500 pool tables in the tri-state area.

Not enough non-pool related corporate sponsorships Once you reach the masses the corporate sponsorships will come.

Thanks,
another pool enthusiast
 
Luxury said:
I think the players are partially to blame for being so boring and then the big wigs even more so for not changing the game to become marketable for tv. .
Click to expand...

no, the masses are to blame. they pay to watch idiotic, bigtime wrestling with phony matches but think pro pool is boring. THE MASSES ARE IDIOTS and nothing can change that. the last time they had a big, pool, TV draw was the feud between mosconi and fats. fats was no match for mosconi but that didn't matter. the game was 9ball because fats would have never gotten to the table playing straight and the masses would have turned off their sets in droves.

There nothing wrong with pool its people that are the problem.
Click to expand...

exactly.....
 
This mild exercise in a business management is great but I am reminded of my school days when the profs say my arguments are unsupported. Many of the reasons posted sound sensible but they are just a play on words until stated in a proper argument.

I think pool does not have enough younger players. At the DCC in 2007 I attended and met virtually zero people in the 20-25 age group. I was unhappy with that experience because the older players seemed awkward about my being there. I also played in a pool league. I didn't like playing in a league because the players were mostly my parents age it is common for people of that age to have communication problems. I would have continued playing in a pool league if the culture was more progressive. Since then I have found myself spending more time in youth culture.
 
Your premise here, if I read it correctly, is that if more dollars were pumped in to the game of pool, via increased cost of equipment, tournament fees, table rental fees, maintenance costs, and everything else that is pool related, that somehow we the lowly players in this noble endeavor would benefit.
Your thinking is flawed, my friend.
 
Gmanpoke said:
The two most popular movies about our sport are set in a world of gambling, hustling, and violence. Is this really where most Americans want their children to spent time?
Click to expand...

I think this hits the nail on the head. Pool seems to be associated with gambling as opposed to an actual sport - much like poker. For pool to be more widely accepted, I think it needs to become known more as a sport and not a gambling game.

As for bowling, while it was never really associated with gambling, it just never hit stride as a mainstream spectator sport, and as a result never gained sponsorship to offer big purses. I remember when a lot of top bowlers actually retained their amateur status because there was more money in amateur bowling tournaments (and the action that went with them).
 
john schmidt said:
i would rather watch the dirtbike pros race then watch the masters golf in person but to somebody else dirtbikes are boring.
Click to expand...

John, I do not think that they are boring, but you can go spectate a Pro dirt bike race on any given weekend, as their is a tour that allows them to race most weekends somewhere.

However the Masters is only played once a year, on some of the most sacred grounds in this wonderful country. That makes it one of the most difficult tickets to obtain year in, and year out.
I for one would jump at the chance to be able to watch a round at the Masters....does anyone have a hook up? :wink:
 
john schmidt said:
if someone loves pool it costs nothing to play and thats one of the many reasons pool companies dont sponsor players.

.
Click to expand...

JS,
Your analogy and reasoning are flawless; it is hard to see pool ever being a big sport for the reasons you cite.

I would say, however, that I have always been shocked that pool has never had big time sponsorship from the companies making the substance that is continuosly needing renewal during pool play - BEER!! It just seems natural that a large brewery could benefit from more prominent involvement with pool leagues or pool tours.

Also, as soon as pool becomes a letter sport in high schools, parents will be falling all over themselves to buy equipment and instruction for their children.

As soon as pool becomes prevalent in country clubs, a bunch of affluent, middle-aged WASPS will be falling all over themselves to learn and buy equipment so they can beat their buddies out of a few bucks at the club.

The BCA should be severely censured for failing to promote these ideas over the past 60 years.
 
John......you were supposed to leave because of all the bull-poop! I want to thank you for NOT leaving....I feel your opinions, and insight into everything pool related is invaluable.

Also, there is a 2009 TRX450R waiting in the garage to sling your silly azz all over Camp Gruber ORV Park....or maybe we go to Little Saharah and ride 1600 acres of sand dunes and turn ourselves into sugar cookies:grin:

So bring your riding boots and your pool cue for a week of fun!
 
ftgokie said:
John......you were supposed to leave because of all the bull-poop! I want to thank you for NOT leaving....I feel your opinions, and insight into everything pool related is invaluable.

Also, there is a 2009 TRX450R waiting in the garage to sling your silly azz all over Camp Gruber ORV Park....or maybe we go to Little Saharah and ride 1600 acres of sand dunes and turn ourselves into sugar cookies:grin:

So bring your riding boots and your pool cue for a week of fun!
Click to expand...

can i come too? i need to jump my girls kia off a cliff, do her a favor.
 
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