whats wrong with pool yada yada etc

[Big Perm]

John, I think you have a point.....in many of their hobbies, people can upgrade their toys.....especially in those that require vehicles.....most people aren't aware that in pool, you can change your tip, shaft, wrap, have cues refinished....there are so many options I'm sure I don't know about....

At the same time, you have popular sports like basketball and football where the equipment is pretty much the same, and they have fans all over the world....

Issues with pool are simple:

Pace of play - people get bored, you gotta keep the action moving, 20 second shot clock
Offensive play - purists don't like this, but your average TV flipper wants to see bank shots, jump shots, and combinations - they will never appreciate a nice 3 rail safety.....I love pool, but sometimes it even bores me.....my wife HATES watching pool on TV - she would rather have me watch golf over pool....

 

[tom mcgonagle]

There's an old song that goes, "You always hurt the one you love, the one you shouldn't hurt at all."

I'm sorry you feel that way John. Your a very well respected person on this forum. You have a huge following.

I've made a big investment in this game. I've written and self-published a book, I think it could have a huge impact on the game, possibly a movie.

Keep your foot in the door, the game needs people like you.

_______________________________

http://tommcgonaglerightoncue.com

 

[paksat]

well this will probably start a 40 page thread but oh well.
i was talking to friend today how we need to make pool exciting etc.

thing is pool is inherently unexciting unless you play it etc.

as some of you know i now am into dirt bikes and street bikes.

i would venture to guess there are as many people who play pool as ride dirt bikes maybe way more.
i just bought a drz400e plated dirtbike today for 2200.guess what now im gonna put skid plate,aftermarket bars,oil,filter,mcct,case savers,radiator guards,antifreeze,
grips,battery tender,i could go on and on.
my point is when you love dirtbiking you go into motorcycle shop and the new ktm bikes are 9000 .
thats how the dirtbike companies can sponsor and pay the pro riders because when your a dirtbike nut like me your going to spend 3-9 thousand on one or more bikes .

if your a pool nut you can buy a cue for 95 bucks join a league and maybe once a year get a new tip.

i know i know there are many in pool who spend more than that but trust me the average motorcycle enthusiasts spend way more on average which is how the money trickes down from the bike companies to the pros.

im not saying the pool crowd is broke or cheap im just saying if you love pool you buy a predator for 500 ,if you love dirtbikes you buy a 9800 dollar ktm,then each year you spend 1000 on maintenance on the bike.

the cue will last forever and might need a tip.


trust me the pool crowd follows the game just as much as the bike crowd but the bike crowd is forced to pay more money to play the game which is how the motorcycle pros get rich.


people always say nobody watches pool its boring etc.

the same amount watch pool as dirtbike racing but the average dirtbike nut spends way way way more because he has too.


they dont sit around dirtbike racing saying . its not exciting and nobody watches.they say we just need the 100,000 that watch to go out and buy a 5000 dollar bike every 3 years .


in pool even if everybody that played pool bought a 200 dollar cue it wouldnt change much because the cue lasts 20 years. the bike lasts1- 5 years and cost 50 times as much.



i would rather watch the dirtbike pros race then watch the masters golf in person but to somebody else dirtbikes are boring.


everybody has some hobby they are in love with ,mines bikes and it costs big money to play.

if someone loves pool it costs nothing to play and thats one of the many reasons pool companies dont sponsor players.

there are many other sports that are the same like golf,every year its a new 500 dollar driver or 55 dollar box of balls that barely last18 holes.


anyway believe me if a brand new dirtbike cost 300 bucks and lasted 15 years and never needed parts honda could not and would not pay chad reed millions to wear honda clothes and ride a honda bike.

Sound reasoning and pretty much the same reason we still run our engines on fossil fuels instead of something such as H20... all that money that recycles itself in the oil world of today would dissappear.

Money is f'n outdated anyway.. been using the same trade system for thousands of years.

 

[Woof Biscuit]

I'll tell ya what's wrong with pool... wives.

No wife, more pool, no problem.

Oh wait... you mean on the business end. Sorry.

Spot on! :grin-square:


I didn't read the whole thread but John has a very good point here. My other hobby is offshore fishing. A good boat is around $70K. Most of the rods and reels are over $1K. High end lures can cost more than most pool sticks. Then you have gas, maintenance and all that. Most boat get less than 2 mpg. Actually, 2 mpg is damn good for an offshore fishing boat with twin engines. Most people don't enjoy watching the SKA kingfish finals on TV but those guys are sponsored by huge boat manufacturers such as Yamaha, Contender, SeaVee, Yellowfin, Invincible, etc. They give these teams a boat and plaster there sponsers decals all over them. The boats alone are over $200K. The guys at the top of the game make in excess of $300,000/year + they get the boat and gear for free. Probably very few of you have ever heard of the SKA tour but these guys are raking in the cha-ching. Here is a link to the website. http://www.fishska.com/

This is just for a stinky old kingfish. I am not even talking about the international billfish tournaments where the top prize is over 1 million.

I said all of that to say this. John is spot on. The money that people spend on pool is not enough to stimulate sponsorships and huge salaries for the best. Unfortunately, I don't think this will change because pool is cheap by design.

 

[paksat]

i know i was only piking john. You make a valid point tho...just look at how many leaguers and nits go to the pool hall and drink only TAP water and then want free table time.

The money is there in the sport....the companies don't share it

The problem I see is that pool isn't much different then basketball in this regard.

All you need is a cheap pair of shoes and a bball.. some don't even need the shoes and bball is HUGE.

 

[greyghost]

thats true you could set up a rim and backboard get a pair of sneakers and a ball and cost what 300$ and your set.

 

[paksat]

Good to see the AZ Billiards community in general "gets it". The typical pool hall has over the years catered to the lowest common factor thus making it an activity low income people can afford. By doing this we make the equipment worse, the profit almost nil and the clientle moral standards non existent. The pool community wants big payouts with no entry free. They want free pool time and to pay $1 for beers. They want big business or "someone else" to support their habit. Whether that is a sponsor or the guys at the bar drinking heavily so the owner can afford to have cheap pool. Players complain about a place having no action yet they havent brought in a customer in years. They want the pool room to supply rich suckers on a daily basis. Most expectations of the community at large has become completely unrealistic. That is why our sport has been shrinking for years in the US. After it hits bottom I hope the next generation of players and bangers both realize it takes a bit of investment in time and money to grow the sport in the right direction.

Outstanding post sir.

It's the players for the most part. I think as the years go on, we will realize that pool ITSELF may have been around for a hundred + years, but that pool as a SPORT is in it's infant stages right now as we speak.

That recent movie where george clooney is trying to keep football alive back in the 1920s is a prime example. Football had no rules and once they were implemented people didn't know them and disagreed with them. If you watch the movie you will see what i'm talking about as most of the characters that play aren't very different then what you'd see in your standard pool hall. Football hadn't become a SPORT yet. It really isn't much different then the way pool is right now.

 

[justadub]

I believe that the poker model is the one that should be emulated. Poker is something that most everyone has played or is at least familiar with sonce childhood, just like pool. There isn't a high initial cost factor, just like pool. One can be moderately successful, at least enough to keep ones interest, just like pool. It can be played socially amoungst friends, just like pool. And it is huge on TV right now.

To address Hu's thoughts re the spectator challenge for big events, poker seems to manage just fine. It has a similarly small "playing field". Monitors would have to make do for those who can't be up front. Heck, even basketball and football almost require jumbotrons now, given how far back many of the seats are these days.

I believe that in order to make pool grow, TV is the key aspect. We can't rely on just ESPN, though. They only have so many slots for programming, and the Sunday afternoon slots are as good as we're gonna get. We need more options, like the Fox Sports Networks that are regionally available all over the country. Again, just like poker, which seems to be on almost every cable channel out there. Production costs should be reasonably low, which is also a plus for cable TV.

I do agree that the glorification of "the Hustle" creates an image problem for marketing pool to the masses. Whether or not it is accurate, dingy, seemy pool-halls are the stereotypical image many folks have of "playing pool", where unsavory characters gather to gamble, and who knows what else. Changing that impression will be a big challenge, but poker managed to do so, so why not pool? Recognizing the challenge is the key; once you know the issue, it can be corrected.

There are some personalities already on the scene, that is good. Sexist or not, the ladies tournaments certainly seem to draw a reasonable amount of attention, for the obvious reasons. I agree with an earlier poster who noted that it seems strange that there hasn't been a beer-related sponsorship for big-time pool on TV. It seems like an obvious pairing, given many pool halls are also bars; the cross-marketing seems like a no-brainer.

Relying on the equipment manufacturers to be the funding behind big-time growth isn't reasonable to expect. Their primary mission is to generate profits, which is the bottom line for any business. How many more tables will Brunswick sell because of a more successful pro tour? Some, certainly, but at what kind of return on investment? Yes, once things start moving in the right direction I would expect the equipment manufacturers to add more sponsorship dollars to augment things, but the real answer is TV, TV, TV.

Sorry for being so long-winded. This is just the perspective of someone not too old, not too young, and quite new to the sport. It has been fun to think about, and speculate, certainly. I appreciate all of your persectives and knowledge. I have been having a ball reading many of these threads, and I think I've even learned a thing or two! :wink:

 

[MikeM]

I believe that the poker model is the one that should be emulated. Poker is something that most everyone has played or is at least familiar with sonce childhood, just like pool. There isn't a high initial cost factor, just like pool. One can be moderately successful, at least enough to keep ones interest, just like pool. It can be played socially amoungst friends, just like pool. And it is huge on TV right now.

To address Hu's thoughts re the spectator challenge for big events, poker seems to manage just fine. It has a similarly small "playing field". Monitors would have to make do for those who can't be up front. Heck, even basketball and football almost require jumbotrons now, given how far back many of the seats are these days.

I believe that in order to make pool grow, TV is the key aspect. We can't rely on just ESPN, though. They only have so many slots for programming, and the Sunday afternoon slots are as good as we're gonna get. We need more options, like the Fox Sports Networks that are regionally available all over the country. Again, just like poker, which seems to be on almost every cable channel out there. Production costs should be reasonably low, which is also a plus for cable TV.

I do agree that the glorification of "the Hustle" creates an image problem for marketing pool to the masses. Whether or not it is accurate, dingy, seemy pool-halls are the stereotypical image many folks have of "playing pool", where unsavory characters gather to gamble, and who knows what else. Changing that impression will be a big challenge, but poker managed to do so, so why not pool? Recognizing the challenge is the key; once you know the issue, it can be corrected.

There are some personalities already on the scene, that is good. Sexist or not, the ladies tournaments certainly seem to draw a reasonable amount of attention, for the obvious reasons. I agree with an earlier poster who noted that it seems strange that there hasn't been a beer-related sponsorship for big-time pool on TV. It seems like an obvious pairing, given many pool halls are also bars; the cross-marketing seems like a no-brainer.

Relying on the equipment manufacturers to be the funding behind big-time growth isn't reasonable to expect. Their primary mission is to generate profits, which is the bottom line for any business. How many more tables will Brunswick sell because of a more successful pro tour? Some, certainly, but at what kind of return on investment? Yes, once things start moving in the right direction I would expect the equipment manufacturers to add more sponsorship dollars to augment things, but the real answer is TV, TV, TV.

Sorry for being so long-winded. This is just the perspective of someone not too old, not too young, and quite new to the sport. It has been fun to think about, and speculate, certainly. I appreciate all of your persectives and knowledge. I have been having a ball reading many of these threads, and I think I've even learned a thing or two! :wink:

I haven't read through all of the replies either, but this one is right on track, dub!

I have put a lot of thought into this over the years and have been waiting for it to take form.

For any successful venture you need a viable product, a marketplace to showcase and sell your product, a customer base to buy your product and talented, skilled people to run the business. Money helps too, but if you've got the rest you can get the money.

Our product is professional pool played by highly skilled, interesting characters. We'll need someone with real talent in showcasing the ability and personalities of our pool players, but if you can make poker players and MMA fighters interesting you can make pool players interesting too. We've got some characters.

The marketplace is TV. ESPN in primetime would be great, but I agree with justadub, regional sports networks via cable and satellite would be a great starting point. I strongly believe you need consistency to make this work so a weekly timeslot, say Friday 10-12 at night would be OUR time slot. Bowling has their Sunday morning time slot where bowling fans know they can tune in and see that week's best players playing for a title. Pool needs that kind of consistency.

Our customer base is pool players. John correctly mentioned that the equipment needed for pool need not be expensive and therefore the billiard equipment manufacturers don't (not won't or can't) contribute much money to pro pool. But pool also has a largley untapped resource - league players. There have been attempts recently to tap into this resource, but without much success. These league players drink and eat (and smoke) just like everyone else and there are hundreds of thousands of them. They also buy cars, fix up their houses, wash their clothes (OK not all of them :wink, in other words they are consumers.

The key to reaching this resource is working with the leagues and convincing them that it is in all of our best interest to use this resource to promote a professional pool tour. Increase interest in pool on TV will lead to increased league participation, more money from sponsors, more prize money to the players increases interest even more, etc., etc.. Once you've got a reliable, consistent product your customer base can grow beyond league players to casual sports fans and even casual TV viewers.

The real key to raising up the sport of pool will be finding the right leadership to make it happen. In addition to strong leaders, we'll also need visionary marketing minds and people willing to sacrifice to make it succeed. Players willing to put in the time and work together, promoters and sponsors willing to risk $ with a long wait for the payoff. I think some of these people exist right here at AZB.

It's time to rise up....IMO.

MM

 

[Josh Palmer]

i wasnt saying whats wrong with pool for me,i make more than many of the pro bike riders. im just talking about the state of pool as a business.

i wish i could ride pro bikes but at 36 and being a novice i dont think that could happen,plus they have very dangerous short careers.

im not complaining about playing pool for living ,ive been fortunate enough to make a nice living for over 12 years doing what i like playing pool.

i just feel sorry for the many friends i have in pool,players ,cuemakers,billiard companies that have no money.

i just feel that pool is one of the games where the diehard fan couldnt spend much on equipment if he wanted to,because all it takes is a 100 dollar stick to play.

It's funny how you say that John... since I have raced bikes all my life up until I really hurt myself, and always wished I had started playing pool young instead. After you have accumulated injuries, you wish you could take it back. Guess you just have to be happy on which side of the fence you are already on. You want to know how it feels to bust a 100ft quad, and I would like to know how it feels to string 10 racks.

 

[markpatrick]

I dont watch dirt bike races or ride a dirt bike.

Solution...
Quit pool
Ride dirtbikes professionally


Thread over.

I play pool and watch pool on TV and streamed on the internet.
Do what you love.
If pool is boring for you, go ride your dirt bike.
Make sure you have a helmet on.

:frown::frown::frown:

 

[pocketspeed]

I haven't read through all of the replies either, but this one is right on track, dub!

I have put a lot of thought into this over the years and have been waiting for it to take form.

For any successful venture you need a viable product, a marketplace to showcase and sell your product, a customer base to buy your product and talented, skilled people to run the business. Money helps too, but if you've got the rest you can get the money.

Our product is professional pool played by highly skilled, interesting characters. We'll need someone with real talent in showcasing the ability and personalities of our pool players, but if you can make poker players and MMA fighters interesting you can make pool players interesting too. We've got some characters.

The marketplace is TV. ESPN in primetime would be great, but I agree with justadub, regional sports networks via cable and satellite would be a great starting point. I strongly believe you need consistency to make this work so a weekly timeslot, say Friday 10-12 at night would be OUR time slot. Bowling has their Sunday morning time slot where bowling fans know they can tune in and see that week's best players playing for a title. Pool needs that kind of consistency.

Our customer base is pool players. John correctly mentioned that the equipment needed for pool need not be expensive and therefore the billiard equipment manufacturers don't (not won't or can't) contribute much money to pro pool. But pool also has a largley untapped resource - league players. There have been attempts recently to tap into this resource, but without much success. These league players drink and eat (and smoke) just like everyone else and there are hundreds of thousands of them. They also buy cars, fix up their houses, wash their clothes (OK not all of them :wink, in other words they are consumers.

The key to reaching this resource is working with the leagues and convincing them that it is in all of our best interest to use this resource to promote a professional pool tour. Increase interest in pool on TV will lead to increased league participation, more money from sponsors, more prize money to the players increases interest even more, etc., etc.. Once you've got a reliable, consistent product your customer base can grow beyond league players to casual sports fans and even casual TV viewers.

The real key to raising up the sport of pool will be finding the right leadership to make it happen. In addition to strong leaders, we'll also need visionary marketing minds and people willing to sacrifice to make it succeed. Players willing to put in the time and work together, promoters and sponsors willing to risk $ with a long wait for the payoff. I think some of these people exist right here at AZB.

It's time to rise up....IMO.

MM

heres the problem that is the killer. televised pool just isnt that captivating except for the most rabid of pool fans (and not always for us either). so the real question is do you have a viable product? not unless it cant be televised in a new and exciting way-to appeal to the non pool playing public. dont bother rising up until you can figure that part out.


brian

 

[socks]

you have to spend money to make money and its not the players that are the cheapos. the the industry
has to commit the time and money into advertising and promotion in order to bring
attention to the sport and they just arent willing to give up thier current profit margin to do that.

Want to make pool exciting again? Go back to playing roll out in 9 ball and 10 ball. It gets old to watch people duck with semi-tough shots or worse yet get out of line when they shouldn't only to duck and play safe and turn a chump into a champion.

I recommend a modified roll out game. You can roll out anytime but the person taking the shot after the roll out must make the ball (opponent gets ball in hand if they miss). That would bring back great shot making and the thrill of possibly missing. Todays game is to play safe when confronted with a tough shot. This would also take away alot of the rolls of the game.

good idea ,id play that way. you normally give me a hard time but im in good mood cause i got new dirtbike today.

just kidding a little, i think you make a good point.

Pretty hard to compare Dirt Biking and Pool..

Its like comparing Morphine to Bendryll...

Guys are still the main targets in each industry and guys spend more for
excitement.

You really want to see money flow.. Count all the $$$ wasted in strip bars
and massage joints around the US in a week. Theres some overhead but
the strippers often PAY to work!!


IMO pool lacks excitement. Watching 9ball or 10 ball is dull. However everything I see people play the ghost it draws attention and EVERY rack counts.

I would like to see a 10ghost tourney.. Pros of course.
First player to get 5 ahead of the other. Each player has a chance to
tie or counter the other's runout.
If after 1.5 hours no one is 5 ahead then whoever is in the lead gets first break and its first to run 3 alternating break.

Not sure if it could work but I know I would love to watch the offensive play and the creativeness needed.


It could alos make a great TAR event. 10 Ghost.. 30 ahead or something like that. Maybe less maybe more. After a time limit or game limit then go to a race or a lesser ahead set.
Anything to get the endorphines popping.

acouple years ago i saw a 9-ball tournement thing on espn, had like 8 or 10 people, i think johnny and ewa where acouple, anyway,
the format again was 9-bal but it was offense only. any shot miss resulted in ball in hand for the other player. was pretty neat
and brought the exciment of going for the tough shot back into the mix.

 

[Celtic]

Pool and dirt biking are hard to relate.

Yes a dirt bike costs alot more, but nowhere near the same number of people dirt bike as play pool. Pool has a HUGE number more people playing the game, so through sheer numbers we don't need to get each person doling out the same amount of money that dirt bikers do. We make up for alot with quantity, kind of like how Best Buy can undersell Joe's TV Shop and still make more money then Joe could dream of making.

While a guy can go out and buy a $98 dollar cue if he actually sticks with the game and enjoys it and gets better he is eventually going to want a better pool cue. He will want a predator, and in time he even might want a Gina or a Southwest to replace the predator. He will also possibly want a JB or a Justis case. He might try out Blue Diamond chalk and find out it really IS worth it to spend $3 on a cube of chalk instead of $0.25. Changing the tip each year is no longer what it once was, people rarely get the Le Pro, they want the Moori or the Kamui or a Sniper and those companies are charging a premium and should be making some decent cash off those things, they could step up and support this sport with some return sponsorship for that $20/tip.

And then there are tables. Cues might not get up to dirt bike prices but pool tables get close. You can blow $9,000 on a new Gold Crown 5, you can spend huge cash on a Diamond, and most players who get into this game want those high end tables. They also want that expensive Simonis cloth, and that stuff sells for a premium and people are happy to pay it. They are ALSO willing to give a guy like Glen or Ernesto a premium to install the table and set it up right. And when that cloth wears out in time they will up another few hundred dollars yet again to replace it.

Tables have one small problem though, the current market for pool halls for whatever reason sucks and the pool halls going out of business are causing an influx of alot of high quality commercial grade tables that flood the used market and this hurts the new table market. This exact same problem does hit cues too. When the player above decides to replace his predator with a Southwest there is a chance he will put that predator on the market, and if he took good care of it then it will compete with new predator sales.

The funny thing with this sport is that despite the flooding of the market the few premium things are still under HIGH demand. There are cue makers with 6 year wait lists and they will have those wait lists till the day they die. They will never want for customers and they dont build cheap cues. People will always keep Glen and Ernesto as busy as they want to be and those guys can charge at the top end of the scale for their trade. The more people that try Diamond chalk will buy it, and this shows other companies that there might be a market for the more premium stuff out there, a new $5/cube chalk? If it is truly better then Blue Diamond people will buy it.

Even tables, the people want the best. The market as I said got flooded, and unfortunately it got hit with Gold Crowns of all things, people cannot miss on a used table that is twice as good as that new one for sale in the billiards shop so new table sales end up hurting.

That said I would MUCH rather have a Gold Crown 5 over my current Gold Crown 3, and the innovations and changes are truly minimal. IF Brunswick was to get their engineers together to REALLY brainstorm a new model of Gold Crown, take some hints from diamond and get the pockets flush with the rails so the metal does not impeed the stroke out of the pockets, for the love of pete build a better internal ball return into the Gold Crown instead of the goofy wire rails that run along the outside for the ball return. If they simply warp the formal product they will sell alot of tables, but atm anyone with a GC 1-4 is not seeing enough of a point to getting a GC5, me included.

 

[MoonshineMattK]

I dont know that there will ever be enough money in pool to pay pros players well.
After watching Irving Cranes interview on Freddy the Beards site I found it interesting that Crane had to sell Cadillacs along side playing pool to support his family.
Pool was in MUCH better shape back then.

I believe the the key to growing pool is youth involvement.
In HS we went to the swimming pool and the bowling alley for gym class.
If and when I am finally able to open a place in town they will be able to add pool hall to that list.
In my area of NW IL the closest pool tables NOT in a bar are the Carom Room in Beloit WI and Cuemasters or Bulldog Billiards in Dubuque IA.
All three rooms are over an hour away. That SUCKS

 

[Fast Lenny]

John, I read your post and not many of the others in here which is rare for me but I figured I would comment. I have had many hobbies growing up, my most expensive by far was cars. If I had all the money back I put into cars I would have quite a cue collection. I was into showing my car and drag racing it.

The money I spent going to the shows and track was not really expensive but parts were and I was lucky enough that my dad and brother were experienced in auto body and mechanical work to make things cheaper on the labor end. I did enjoy the speed and the scene but with all the tickets I would get as I was into street racing and going fast, it was very expensive.

I got into pool and poker and found my car sitting under a cover for a year so it was time to sell them and move on. I love pool and do enjoy playing poker from time to time, I wonder what next hobby I will get into.