Where does SVB rank all time?

[CasCraven]

I've been watching/playing pool since 1980. I've seen the best play live in every decade since the 80s. From the PBT tour to today. It's a shame that that tour was short lived. ESPN was the big sponsor and today replaced pool with Cornhole??
In my lifetime, SVB is top 3. And the game back then and today is rotation... 9ball. I have to put SVB at 3.
Strickland is 2.
And the best player ever is Mike Sigel. These are the best 3 Americans in the past 50 years. To me SVB has the most dominant game when he is on. And by on, I am talking about his mental game. That's the difference. That is why his record internationally is disappointing.
That is why his Mosconi results are embarrassing. Sigel and Strickland? Their mental game was their biggest advantage. Add in their Worldly skills, and you have the top 2 greatest American players. I think Archer and SVB are close at 3 and 4.
SVB has no weakness physically at the table. It's his mental game that prevents him from being the greatest ever.

 

[SomeDeadGuy]

You make a great point. Well said

 

[L.S. Dennis]

If we're just talking greatest American players from any era, SVB is on my short list (top 10-12 players).

For me, that list would include (chronologically):

Greenleaf
Mosconi
Crane
Lassiter
Worst
Mizerak
Hall
Sigel
Varner
Strickland
Archer
SVB

For the greatest all-around American players ever my very short list would be (again, chronologically):

Worst
Lassiter
Varner

I would also put Varner and Worst on the short list of greatest all-around players ever, along with Efren.

Good selection, no doubt that Worst was a huge all around talent as Jay frequently alludes to, if only he had live a bit longer who knows what number he would have put up!

 

[JC]

He's better than myself or anyone else opining in this thread will ever be.

 

[jeffb8ball]

A

Strickland whines too much for me to consider him great

Agreed

 

[sjm]

SVB compared to MJ??? You are joking right!? Man I really like SVBs game but SVB may not be even THE best tournament player of his generation, let alone GOAT. When you count really big titles you have to take into consideration Albin Ouschan who has won world 9b championships twice, also won twice World Cup of Pool and also won China Open, those accolades stand quite high when put against US Opens and DCCs of SVB. Honestly? Too close to call who is the better one between these two as far as the tournament play goes. And the same in regards to money matches - SVB is a beast but so is Dennis Orcollo and while 2 years back I would say SVB is a king of money matches recent proceedings shows us a bit different story - once again too close to call that. While MJ was the king of his generation by far and definitely is in the GOAT talk.

Wow, I'd call Ralf Souquet a much, much, much more successful tournament player than Albin Ouschan. Ralf has won (in some cases multiple times) the US Open 9-ball, the World 8-ball championship, the World Cup of Pool, the World 9-ball championship, the US Open Straight Pool, the World Pool Masters, and the All-Japan 9-ball. I'd also suggest that Albin's career is not nearly on a par with that of Niels Feijen.

Albin has to achieve a lot more before I'll consider him an all-time great.

 

[The_JV]

While MJ was the king of his generation by far and definitely is in the GOAT talk.

In the GOAT talk...? Really...?

More like the bar that all other GOAT candidates get measured by.

 

[sjm]

While Ralf is definitely ÜBER-successful player (more than SVB in terms of tournament success for sure) I wouldnt consider him a player of current/SVB generation, his best years were before SVB came into the fore. And I nowhere said that Albin is the GOAT, I just said that Albin may be better tournament player than SVB is. And yes, Niels is on par or even slightly better than Albin, I used Albin as an example. My argument was that SVB simply isnt/wasnt as dominant player in pool as Michael Jordan was in basketball as Mattydrva implied, nothing more nothing less

Thanks for the clarification. Agreed that Shane does not, and has never, dominated pool the way Michael Jordan dominated basketball.

Reacting to your previous post, if you don't think Derby City 9-ball titles are incredibly tough to win, rest assured that you are mistaken. Field size is typically 400-500 and you need to win about thirteen matches to snap off the title. That's why the list of Derby City 9-ball Champions consists primarily of current and future hall of famers. The field always consists of the stars of America, Asia (Efren, Orcullo, Biado, Corteza, Butamante, Pagulayan and Parica have each probably played in at least ten of them), and Europe (Ralf, Niels, Darren, and Shaw probably played in ten of them or more each). Outside of the majors of the last twenty years or so (World 9-ball, China Open 9-ball, All Japan 9-ball, US Open 9-ball), the Derby City Classic 9-ball event may just be the hardest nine ball event to win in the world. Shane's five Derby City 9-ball titles is a record that may last forever. Incidentally, the typical field at the Derby City 9-ball is tougher than the field found at the 2021 World Pool Championship, which in so many ways felt like a large field Eurotour event with a sprinkling of American and Asian players . It's just that hard to win at Derby City! Shane's five US Open 9-ball titles is also going to be very hard to match.

Sorry, but Shane has been a stone cold killer in tournament play for well over ten years now, and the US Open is as hard to win as any event other than the WPA World 9-ball. Yes, Shane has no World 9-ball Championship, but he has two silvers. Yes, Shane has no All-Japan title, but he has won a bronze. Yes, Shane has no China Open title but he has won a bronze. At home and away, he's proven his mettle over and over and over, and Albin's tournament resume pales by comparison.

I think Shane's resume is even stronger in tournament play that it is in action matches.

 

[sjm]

Once again you read too fast and assume things I didnt write or mean. If you think i am disrespecting DCC then read my post again as I did the very opposite

No, what I read is what you wrote, which is this:

When you count really big titles you have to take into consideration Albin Ouschan who has won world 9b championships twice, also won twice World Cup of Pool and also won China Open, those accolades stand quite high when put against US Opens and DCCs of SVB.

Is this a joke? You are trying to put things like World Cup of Pool (which SVB has won, by the way) in the conversation with things like the US Open 9-ball, which is every bit as difficult to win as the China Open and your comment can only be interpreted as placing little credence in the significance and difficulty of a Derby City 9-ball win. To you, the World 9-ball title is "really big" and the US Open 9-ball and Derby City 9-ball are not.

With nine medals in the majors (World 9-ball, US Open 9-ball, China Open, All Japan), five of them gold, two of them silver and two of them bronze, Shane has outachieved Albin in what have been the four biggest events over the past twenty years. Shane has also outachieved Albin with two World Pool Masters titles to Albin's zero.

 

[sjm]

You can be as angry as you want but for the time being SVB is at best the GOAT out of players who have never won world championships. Similar to Jimmy White in snooker. If (big if) SVB wins that one then we can talk again. Have a nice day

I'm not angry and I think we agree 100% that the lack of a World Championship is a very big deal. I'm only baffled by the fact that you made light of some of the titles that are the hardest to come by in our sport.

 

[measureman]

He's better than myself or anyone else opining in this thread will ever be.

Have you ever seen me play?

 

[Fatboy]

Wow, I'd call Ralf Souquet a much, much, much more successful tournament player than Albin Ouschan. Ralf has won (in some cases multiple times) the US Open 9-ball, the World 8-ball championship, the World Cup of Pool, the World 9-ball championship, the US Open Straight Pool, the World Pool Masters, and the All-Japan 9-ball. I'd also suggest that Albin's career is not nearly on a par with that of Niels Feijen.

Albin has to achieve a lot more before I'll consider him an all-time great.

Stu-say something we don’t agree on! J/K

I agree 1000% with this as well.

Hope your well, thanks for all your posts I really enjoy them.

my very best
Fatboy

 

[Nostroke]

17th

 

[Nostroke]

He won the 9-Ball division at the Stardust in 1968. He was in his late 50's then.

He won the World Series of Billiards in 1978 at age 65

 

[AtLarge]

... Shane's five Derby City 9-ball titles is a record that may last forever. ...

Its a measly four DCC 9-Ball titles for SVB, not five : https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/multiple-event-winners-at-the-dcc.306866/page-4#post-6571674

 

[jay helfert]

I've been watching/playing pool since 1980. I've seen the best play live in every decade since the 80s. From the PBT tour to today. It's a shame that that tour was short lived. ESPN was the big sponsor and today replaced pool with Cornhole??
In my lifetime, SVB is top 3. And the game back then and today is rotation... 9ball. I have to put SVB at 3.
Strickland is 2.
And the best player ever is Mike Sigel. These are the best 3 Americans in the past 50 years. To me SVB has the most dominant game when he is on. And by on, I am talking about his mental game. That's the difference. That is why his record internationally is disappointing.
That is why his Mosconi results are embarrassing. Sigel and Strickland? Their mental game was their biggest advantage. Add in their Worldly skills, and you have the top 2 greatest American players. I think Archer and SVB are close at 3 and 4.
SVB has no weakness physically at the table. It's his mental game that prevents him from being the greatest ever.

Buddy was as mentally strong as anyone and he is right there with the three you mention. Buddy probably won more tournaments than anyone, before or since. He dominated the bar table circuit and was always one of the favorites in any big table event.

 

[Raceto9]

I love GOAT discussions I just read the full 9 pages of comments

I think it is hard (or impossible?) to compare players from the 70s-80s with players of today for a lot of reasons:
-Different equipment
-Different rules
-Different field (filipinos arrived in the 80s, european in the 90s, chinese/taiwan later on..)
-Different tournaments (the major tournaments of yesterday arent all the same as today's)
--> So looking at 'titles only' is difficult. It's definitely not apple to apple.

And then if you base your judgement on 'what you witnessed', your own age can make you bias.
Younger pool fans are likely to have a bias towards SVB, Alex, etc...
Older fans are likely to vote for Efren, Earl, etc...
And even older fans will shout Sigel, Varner, Hall, etc...
And even if you try to not be bias, your memory will make you unconsciously bias as you will only remember the amazing achievements of those players you used to watch and you'll discard their failures, or the context, etc ... its pretty natural. And younger fans just have no idea how good Hall, Sigel, Varner were ...

I think the only 'fair' way to do it is to have a GREATEST per decade.
So who would you vote for?
70s: Hall?
80s: Efren?
90s: Earl?
00s: Pagulayan?
10s: SVB!!
I think we can all agree SVB is the greatest when it comes to the past decade. I even made a video on that topic last year.


Personally I only discovered pool about 8 years ago so I admit I can't talk much about what happened before even tho I've watched tens of thousands of hours of youtube videos, and read countless of stories ... Being fairly young, I probably have a bias towards SVB and it's no surprise he is my favorite player.
Efren is my 2nd fav because from all the videos I've watched, he is the one that I've enjoyed watching the most. I've never seen any other player get out of 'problem situations' the way he does ... but I still prefer SVB because I feel he plays so perfect he never gets in those 'problem situations' and never has to pull a great escape kind of shot.
Earl and Alex would finish my top 4.

Unfortunately I'm too young, and there isn't enough videos for me to really get to know the games of Sigel, Varner, Hall, etc... I've watched hours of them on YouTube, but nowhere near as much as the more recent players.
So I know I am bias whether I want it or not ...

 

[sjm]

Its a measly four DCC 9-Ball titles for SVB, not five : https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/multiple-event-winners-at-the-dcc.306866/page-4#post-6571674

Thanks for that. That's what I get for going on memory alone and not looking it up. Guess he'll be gunning for number five in January.

 

[sjm]

Definitely didnt do what you say I did but whatever, I respect DCC quite a lot and I dont want to argue about the topic where we moreorless agree with each other, only we see the matter from the different angle In all seriousness on related topic I would be interested in comparison of DCC9b vs any given Eurotour stop Fargorate-wise (lets say Top100 or Top50, both pre-covid). I guess DCC probably has higher average FR per player but I just wonder by how much..

I'm quite sure that Eurotour has the higher average Fargo than DCC, simply because DCC has hundreds of amateurs in the field. On the other hand, if you mean: "How do the top fifty players typically found in the DCC 9-ball compare to the top 50 players typically found in a Eurotour event by Fargo, I agree that DCC is higher but, just as you suggest, not by that much, probably as little as ten to fifteen Fargo points.

I know how tough the Eurotour fields are, Yes, I do follow Eurotour and watch some of the matches on Youtube. I particularly enjoy Imran Majid's commentary, too.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Well I honestly had no idea how strong the Eurotour fields were. I just looked at the last 3 events and the Fargos of the top 3 finishers.

Lasko Open 815, 805, 780
Sankt Johan Open 829, 800, 800
Treviso Open 825, 816, 818


That said, the top 3 in the last 3 DCC 9 Ball were pretty strong as well

2020 815, 826, 821

2019 801, 805, 818

2018 786, 786, 821