TY...Alan McCarty had Clawson Cues. I knew he was part of it somehow.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Who and Why was LD shaft invented
- Thread starter mortuarymike-nv
- Start date
A certain classic cue maker who is no longer with us unfortunately, used the best old growth maple out there and the number of grains in his shafts was High, as well as the grain lines running straight for the length of the shaft. He said they could warp otherwise.
I personally have several of his shafts with grain counts over 14 to a high of 20, if my eyes aren't deceiving me. Tight and evenly spaced grain lines. Not these big lines you see on shafts nowadays.
Nothing like the hit and feel of an old growth shaft!!
Btw... He would toss anything that had less than 10 in the seconds can.A certain classic cue maker who is no longer with us unfortunately, used the best old growth maple out there and the number of grains in his shafts was High, as well as the grain lines running straight for the length of the shaft. He said they could warp otherwise.
I personally have several of his shafts with grain counts over 14 to a high of 20, if my eyes aren't deceiving me. Tight and evenly spaced grain lines. Not these big lines you see on shafts nowadays.
Nothing like the hit and feel of an old growth shaft!!
Sounds as reasonable as anything else I've heard. Thanks for posting!!
Re. "A certain classic cue maker who is no longer with us unfortunately" Would you mind sharing who this cue maker was? I love my Cog. solid maple shaft. But, I'm always curious. Thanks.A certain classic cue maker who is no longer with us unfortunately, used the best old growth maple out there and the number of grains in his shafts was High, as well as the grain lines running straight for the length of the shaft. He said they could warp otherwise.
I personally have several of his shafts with grain counts over 14 to a high of 20, if my eyes aren't deceiving me. Tight and evenly spaced grain lines. Not these big lines you see on shafts nowadays.
Nothing like the hit and feel of an old growth shaft!!
Interesting but most P shafts from the mid 60s and 70s stayed fairly straight even to this day. I rarely encounter an older Palmer shaft that is very warped- Mostly just minor acceptable taper rolls from what I have seen.
Any player who Google's up "A River of Wood" will understand that time is the more important quantity.
Also Note:: An 11mm tip on a solid shaft IS low deflection already. The radially glued shafts are LD because they drill a hole in the front you can't see under the ferrule and tip.
yea also partly because it has less craftsman in it. easier to make with a machine by a less killed person. cheaper overall to produce and so many believe in it being their cureall for not knowing how to play shots.
but you can see it made the great players able to to beat the best like efrin who plays with a regular shaft. oh wait they still cant beat him.
but you can see it made the great players able to to beat the best like efrin who plays with a regular shaft. oh wait they still cant beat him.
I know this post is 15 some years old… the first post sounds like the biggest wive’s tale I’ve ever heard.
Lots of bogosity in this thread but also some good stuff. Keep the wheat and discard the chaff.
Nothing personal, but I'd rather not. His cues are in high demand as is.
I don't want to be the guy that inadvertently made them even more expensive. Lol.
Let's just say, you'll know 'em when you see 'em!!
There is a Predator video that goes over the early days and experiments. It came out about a year or two ago. Good info for those into this. It might be the Revo history video, I can’t remember exactly which one.
The Meucci shaft ferrule was thinner and less dense than most others at the time, before Predator. (That’s also why it cracked more).
Predator’s early patent main independent claims covered two areas that made low deflection: 1) the hollow region at the front of the shaft. 2) the density (or maybe it was Young’s Modulus, I forget) of the ferrule material.
After Predator 314 blew away everything else on the market as far as cb deflection went, several other brands started reducing the end mass.
Meucci changed their tenon design so it was tapered like the front of a pencil. This created a hollow area within the ferrule, resulting in lower end mass. I think they only did this on the black dot shafts, not the red dot, but may be mistaken.
OB came out with their shaft that had a wood ferrule. Less dense than most of the other ferrule materials.
McDermott Intimidator series (I-1, I-2, I-3) had a hole in the shaft that was then filled with a carbon fiber tube.
To my knowledge, none of the mass produced shafts ever had the hollow region like predator. (Without filling it with something else). Their patent expired in about 2011. Even after the patent expired I don’t know if any did similar.
I think several custom makers were drilling out the front of the shafts, but keeping it on the down-low to avoid any legal action from predator.
Now everyone has carbon fiber, which is inherently hollow.
The Meucci shaft ferrule was thinner and less dense than most others at the time, before Predator. (That’s also why it cracked more).
Predator’s early patent main independent claims covered two areas that made low deflection: 1) the hollow region at the front of the shaft. 2) the density (or maybe it was Young’s Modulus, I forget) of the ferrule material.
After Predator 314 blew away everything else on the market as far as cb deflection went, several other brands started reducing the end mass.
Meucci changed their tenon design so it was tapered like the front of a pencil. This created a hollow area within the ferrule, resulting in lower end mass. I think they only did this on the black dot shafts, not the red dot, but may be mistaken.
OB came out with their shaft that had a wood ferrule. Less dense than most of the other ferrule materials.
McDermott Intimidator series (I-1, I-2, I-3) had a hole in the shaft that was then filled with a carbon fiber tube.
To my knowledge, none of the mass produced shafts ever had the hollow region like predator. (Without filling it with something else). Their patent expired in about 2011. Even after the patent expired I don’t know if any did similar.
I think several custom makers were drilling out the front of the shafts, but keeping it on the down-low to avoid any legal action from predator.
Now everyone has carbon fiber, which is inherently hollow.
Can't help but notice your account name.
Do you play?? In a band or orchestra?? Jazz??
Bones are the Bad Boyz of brass!!
Good luck on the hole itself as long as drill bits are sold.
A company would have a better argument on what was done with the hole.
Predator developed it reputation because of the low deflection but also because of thier lamination theories on how the shaft was spliced together,
Radial consistently!
As far as the hole itself, Cue makers before Predator were experimenting.
When i did repairs for the Canadian Pro Tour. The Players talked about a Canadian maker named Harvey from the 60's or 70's who was hollowing out the front of the shaft. I never learned his full name.
But along the same time frame as Predator, Jerry Powers started offering radial spliced shafts. I really don't know who was first. Not sure ANYONE does.
Late 90's there was talk about c/f shafts and how they would impact the Industry.
They certainly have made thier mark.
There's room for EVERY shaft option,
Simply because not one shaft fits every player nor does every player have the same opinion.
Meucci contributed with his red and black dot shafts, both had a special ferrule design on how it's attached.
Red dot supposedly indicated the sweet spot and the black dot was/is 35 pieces of flat lamination.
OB--'
Special lamination and wood ferrule. Maybe the first to incorporate the foam inside because without it, you could drop a pencil thru the entire shaft.
ALL GREAT OPTIONS!
ALL, have major contributions to the Industry.
ALL HELPED to lay the foundation in learning for c/f options.
And ALL, still just options to satisfy the players needs and curiosities!!!!
Doesn't this forum allow "private" messages? Thanks.Nothing personal, but I'd rather not. His cues are in high demand as is.
I don't want to be the guy that inadvertently made them even more expensive. Lol.
Let's just say, you'll know 'em when you see 'em!!
There's a father and son company down here in Central Pennsylvania that restore old pool tables and also do mechanical work on bar tables. They had an old Brunswick Hoppe in their cue case that has seen better days (packing tape wrapped on the forearm to keep the points in) that the sold me for $50. I took it to the pool room just on a laugh and came away stunned at how straight it was and how solid the hit was, as firm as my Drexler if not more. I thought for sure it would have a ping or clink or click or clank. Nothing.
Predator filed a handful of patents on its LD shafts over the years with varying success. This is the patent that most directly applies to its hollow-bore design, requiring a shaft having a wall thickness of about 0.030 to 0.050in:
And a second patent requiring a ferrule with a "zip":
Predator voluntarily abandoned both of these patents (dedicating them to the public) in 2012 when it decided not to pay the government fee to keep them alive.
Here's a failed attempt from Predator to patent a similar design in 2006, which the Patent Office rejected in view of Predator's earlier patents.
Predator sued McDermott over some of these patents in 2006, alleging that McDermott's i-shaft cues infringed its patents. The case apparently settled a year later (before the court looked at anything) on unknown terms.
(and this is how i wasted my lunch hour).
US6110051A - Billiard cue - Google Patents
A billiard cue includes a shaft having a hollow bore extending from at least a predetermined distance from a first end toward a second end. The bore forms an outer wall in the shaft having a thickness between about 0.03 and 0.05 inches. The shaft is preferably formed of a composite material...
patents.google.com
And a second patent requiring a ferrule with a "zip":
US6162128A - Billiard/pool cue - Google Patents
A ferrule mounted on one end of a billiard/pool cue shaft has greater compressibility than the compressibility of the shaft to compress on impact of a tip mounted on the ferrule with a ball to absorb a portion of impact forces and to provide easy outward flexure with minimal buckling of the end...
patents.google.com
Predator voluntarily abandoned both of these patents (dedicating them to the public) in 2012 when it decided not to pay the government fee to keep them alive.
Here's a failed attempt from Predator to patent a similar design in 2006, which the Patent Office rejected in view of Predator's earlier patents.
US20080026860A1 - Billiard cue for reducing cue ball deflection - Google Patents
Cue sticks, shaft sections of cue sticks, and methods of using such devices are disclosed, where the devices are configured to reduce the phenomenon of cue ball deflection. In particular, limits upon the mass of the cue stick in a section extending from the tip to a predetermined distance toward...
patents.google.com
Predator sued McDermott over some of these patents in 2006, alleging that McDermott's i-shaft cues infringed its patents. The case apparently settled a year later (before the court looked at anything) on unknown terms.
(and this is how i wasted my lunch hour).