Who was all in on the infamous dumping at Challenge of Champions 1991?

Razor

Lex Parsimoniae
Silver Member
I think that was during a time I stopped posting here, I only came back recently.
Off thread topic - I wonder if a lot of us just returned here recently? Seems like I have seen a few posts referencing this very notion. Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled topic.

~Razor

p.s. anyone heard from Tramp Steamer, Blue Hog ridr, or johnnyt? (not intentionally omitting anyone here). Hope they and everyone are doing well.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Off thread topic - I wonder if a lot of us just returned here recently? Seems like I have seen a few posts referencing this very notion. Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled topic.

~Razor

p.s. anyone heard from Tramp Steamer, Blue Hog ridr, or johnnyt? (not intentionally omitting anyone here). Hope they and everyone are doing well.
johnnyt unfortunately died a few years ago. His wife came on here and had a nice thank you to the forum from him.
 

westcoast

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Who really knows?? Or cares?? 30yrs ago in pool is like a million yrs. Pool didn't pay anything then and the casino set themself up for some skullduggery. Not condoning what may or may not have happened, just the way it was then. Read Helfert's take on it. He was there and has the most credible insight imo.
Pool paid better back then as compared to now almost without adjusting for inflation
 

westcoast

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If I remember correctly, the Challenge of Champions was unique in that winner took all. That's some pressure! I wonder if the other guys got any money for appearing or at least some money for accommodations and food.
 

terryhanna

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Odds on the same event in 1994 from the casino sports book

No more 20-1 Odds lol

challenge of champions sports book.jpg
 

terryhanna

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
If I remember correctly, the Challenge of Champions was unique in that winner took all. That's some pressure! I wonder if the other guys got any money for appearing or at least some money for accommodations and food.

C J said when he played the players got all their expenses paid.

Winner take all format seems like a bad idea to me.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A couple factoids about the C-of-C: It was held all the way up to 2016. For a few yrs a companion comp., 'Trick Shot Magic' was held. TSM consistently got higher ratings and in fact was highest rated pool ever televised by ESPN.
 
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Bic D

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Earl acting like a butthurt 5yr old on ESPN cost pool way more than that 'dump'. I know a tecnician here in Tulsa that helped produce some of ESPN's pro pool and he said management would have nothing to do with men's pool as long as that crap went on. They dropped the men's tour and carried the women only except for a few CoC events in Conn.
Every sport has at least 1.

 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Off thread topic - I wonder if a lot of us just returned here recently? Seems like I have seen a few posts referencing this very notion. Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled topic.

~Razor

p.s. anyone heard from Tramp Steamer, Blue Hog ridr, or johnnyt? (not intentionally omitting anyone here). Hope they and everyone are doing well.

I believe Blue Hog Rider is ok, I have seen him posting on other former AZBers facebooks posts...he posted there early last month, at least.
 

book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This subject has been dealt with at great length on the forum, and there is no new information since.. I remember the incident well.

I disagree with IUSEDTOBERICH, however. Although in the context of the Mirage Sportsbook handle, they took a very modest loss booking this event, this event did impact the sport of pool.

The Mirage, which was only about a year old at the time, was making a huge effort to host sporting events on its Vegas property, with the centerpiece being boxing, for which they built a new venue. The idea was to bring action to its sportsbook, and obtaining the Challenge of Champions was a small part of their strategy. There may be a few who still believe that what happened was on the level, but in the end the only opinion that mattered was that of the Mirage, and they didn't like what they saw. When the contract ran out a few years later, not surprisingly, Mirage didn't renew the event, and word spread quickly that booking pool was a dangerous proposition. Mirage would have had every reason to grow the event, and the prize money, which was already very good in that event, would likely have risen even higher over time.

Hence, even for those few who think it was all on the level, there is no denying that this was a missed opportunity for pro pool. Snooker has a big handle in the UK, and the Mosconi Cup is also a bettable event there. People have an appetite to bet on cuesports, but this incident has a lot to do with why casino sportsbooks in America don't take action on pool. First impressions count, and pool had a bad debut at the Mirage.
Very short sighted of the Mirage imo. Almost everyone who would have made any money at all on the tournament, even if it was fixed , would have taken their winnings and given it right back to the casino on the tables. I have watched numerous big name pool players who were dice degenerates. Win money in the tourney and go down and blow it all in an hour. If they had a method of betting on horses at the same place , they could have gotten it all back the same day.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Odds on the same event in 1994 from the casino sports book

No more 20-1 Odds lol

View attachment 577865
This is the evidence that shoots down all the nonsense about the 91 Challenge of Champions having a negative effect on pool. This entire event was exaggerated, when I found out how much was really bet and won it wasn't worth mentioning. All the players in the Challenge of Champions were making a lot of money at that time, I made over $400k the year I played so the 50k first prize was nice, but not a life changing number.

Thanks for the memories terryhanna ...... this was back when pool was still riding the wave of 'The Color of Money'
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
This is the evidence that shoots down all the nonsense about the 91 Challenge of Champions having a negative effect on pool. This entire event was exaggerated, when I found out how much was really bet and won it wasn't worth mentioning. All the players in the Challenge of Champions were making a lot of money at that time, I made over $400k the year I played so the 50k first prize was nice, but not a life changing number.

Thanks for the memories terryhanna ...... this was back when pool was still riding the wave of 'The Color of Money'
The fact that The Mirage continued to stage and book the Challenge of Champions until their contract ran out several years later isn't evidence at all.

The money involved was insubstantial in the context of the handle of a large sports book. The cost of pursuing any legal action could never have been justified given how small the losses were. That said, the lack of motivation to both market and grow the event at The Mirage was quite evident, and it was made crystal clear when they chose not to renew their contract when it expired. The Mirage had no appetite to further their association with pool at the time.

The Mirage softened it's stance eighteen years later by hosting the 2013 Mosconi Cup. The Mosconi is an event that has always been bettable at the UK bookmaking concerns, but, to nobody's surprise, The Mirage took no action on the event. They'd had enough when it came to booking action on pool, and for very obvious reasons.
 
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