Who was all in on the infamous dumping at Challenge of Champions 1991?

Dead Money

AzB Gold Member
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Mike is one of the few pros who continued to play world class pool into his 60's. Even in the late 1990s, when he was about 63 or so, Mike often played events on the All About Pool Tour, a de facto forerunner of the Joss Tour, and he was always a threat to win despite the presence of perennial favorites George "Ginky" San Souci, Tony Robles, and Joe Frady (AKA, Neptune Joe). Mike's win at the 1988 US Open was a mild surprise, but he was certainly an elite player back in the day,

Thanks for the info.
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
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Pete Weber singled out one guy to argue with, while Earl took on the whole crowd! He would have a dozen guys yelling at him and Earl would respond in kind, much to their pleasure.
John McEnroe did that in tennis all the time and I always figured it was a way to shark his opponent more than anything else. I remember one time he started screaming because he could hear a typewriter in the press box. Crazy like a fox.
 

livemusic

AzB Silver Member
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Jimmy Vaccaro was in charge of the sports book at the Mirage and he told me afterwards that there had been eleven tickets sold for $200 each (the maximum bet allowed) on Lebron, and maybe a few dozen tickets on the other players. They took a net loss of $44,000 on the winning tickets and maybe took in several thousand on the other tickets sold. I asked Jimmy who made the line and he told me it was someone who worked at the sports book. The following couple of years I helped him make the line for the players. He didn't always do what I suggested, but they never made anyone 20-1 again. I explained to him that was a crazy line with only eight players and very short matches. Anyone could win and Lebron was a strong player, just like the other guys.
I don't quite grasp the dump talk if the max bet was $200 and Lebron was 20:1. So, if Hall dumped, he won $4,000 on the bet? Am I looking at that correctly? Is there something else to this? What with potential controversy, is $4k enough to cause one to dump? I don't know enough about this how the supposed dump conspiracy was set up. Did they supposedly book elsewhere, too?
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
I don't quite grasp the dump talk if the max bet was $200 and Lebron was 20:1. So, if Hall dumped, he won $4,000 on the bet? Am I looking at that correctly? Is there something else to this? What with potential controversy, is $4k enough to cause one to dump? I don't know enough about this how the supposed dump conspiracy was set up. Did they supposedly book elsewhere, too?
According to Jay Helfert, there were 11 different bets of $200 each on Lebron, so the hit was not 4,000, but instead 44,000, which greatly exceeded all other action on the event and resulted in a loss of tens of thousands for the book.

Although we'll never know all the details for certain, let's, for the sake of an example, pretend that the eight players (and yes, I know one of them is widely known to have refused to participate) agreed in advance to split the 50,000 that the winner would receive and, as a group, to bet 2,200 on Lebron, for whom victory would be arranged. Now they could share 94,000 instead of 50,000.

Your suggestion that there wasn't sufficient motivation for a fix doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
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I don't quite grasp the dump talk if the max bet was $200 and Lebron was 20:1. So, if Hall dumped, he won $4,000 on the bet? Am I looking at that correctly? Is there something else to this? What with potential controversy, is $4k enough to cause one to dump? I don't know enough about this how the supposed dump conspiracy was set up. Did they supposedly book elsewhere, too?
Even if Buddy had one of those $200 bets on Lebron, there were 10 other bettors (likely mostly the other players) who would have lost out on $4K each if Buddy had won that final match. If he was in on it, he was obligated to do his part, even if the winner’s payout was far more than $4K.

As I just read Stu’s post before mine, it’s very likely the players also agreed on an even split for all the prize $ as well. Savers are very common in pool tournaments, although usually not arranged until just before the final match of a tournament, and not necessarily negotiated as a 50/50 split, but something considerably closer to 50/50 than the listed prize money breakdown.
 
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westcoast

AzB Silver Member
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This was brought up in that previous long thread about this debacle, but it is quite strange that Buddy even let it get to hill/hill. If I recall correctly, Lebron did make errors in the games leading up, but still- you'd think Buddy would intentionally miss position or hang a ball so that it didn't come down to that last game- as mentioned earlier in this thread, that last shot for Lebron was not an easy shot. He probably misses that shot 10% of the time.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
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This was brought up in that previous long thread about this debacle, but it is quite strange that Buddy even let it get to hill/hill. If I recall correctly, Lebron did make errors in the games leading up, but still- you'd think Buddy would intentionally miss position or hang a ball so that it didn't come down to that last game- as mentioned earlier in this thread, that last shot for Lebron was not an easy shot. He probably misses that shot 10% of the time.
As I recall, Buddy tried his best not to let it get to hill-hill, but strange things just kept happening.
 

book collector

AzB Silver Member
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Whoever made the line was a goof. Mike wasn't the best player in the field but he was capable of beating anyone on a given day and could certainly have had a great tournament and some luck and won it without any help at all. When you make him 20 to 1 you invited the pirates to go for a sail . $200 max bet, lol , that's a joke in itself.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
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According to Jay Helfert, there were 11 different bets of $200 each on Lebron, so the hit was not 4,000, but instead 44,000, which greatly exceeded all other action on the event and resulted in a loss of tens of thousands for the book.

Although we'll never know all the details for certain, let's, for the sake of an example, pretend that the eight players (and yes, I know one of them is widely known to have refused to participate) agreed in advance to split the 50,000 that the winner would receive and, as a group, to bet 2,200 on Lebron, for whom victory would be arranged. Now they could share 94,000 instead of 50,000.

Your suggestion that there wasn't sufficient motivation for a fix doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
Correct Stu. Here are the numbers if you add it all up per player. Seven guys chop up 50,000, that's $7,143 each. Add on $4,000 each for the Lebron wager (these bets had to be made by confederates of the players. They were not allowed to bet on the matches themselves). And add on the $2,500 in expense money and you have a total of $13,643 going to each player. That was a very good payday back then.

I think the appropriate phrase for such a scheme is "Penny wise and pound foolish."
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
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Whoever made the line was a goof. Mike wasn't the best player in the field but he was capable of beating anyone on a given day and could certainly have had a great tournament and some luck and won it without any help at all. When you make him 20 to 1 you invited the pirates to go for a sail . $200 max bet, lol , that's a joke in itself.
When you're dealing with scumbags it seems like a $200 max bet is smart.

Whats even funnier is they could only come up with $2,200(if all tickets were bought by the players or their stooges) these "Champions" only had $2,200 between them LOL
 
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jasonlaus

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Correct Stu. Here are the numbers if you add it all up per player. Seven guys chop up 50,000, that's $7,143 each. Add on $4,000 each for the Lebron wager (these bets had to be made by confederates of the players. They were not allowed to bet on the matches themselves). And add on the $2,500 in expense money and you have a total of $13,643 going to each player. That was a very good payday back then.

I think the appropriate phrase for such a scheme is "Penny wise and pound foolish."
If all bets were made by the 7 players stooges you could add another $16,000 to the total
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
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When you're dealing with scumbags it seems like a $200 max bet is smart.

Whats even funnier is they could only come up with $2,200(if all tickets were bought by the players or their stooges) these "Champions" only had $2,200 between them LOL
I don't know, but it would appear to me that all seven players bought at least one ticket each, and maybe a few of them managed to get an extra one. Vaccaro never told me if there were any smaller wagers made on Lebron, possibly by members of the public that just saw a good opportunity.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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Naïve? Blind? Stupid? CJ!? ...............LMAO o_O :ROFLMAO:

Insulting...yes you!


CJ is triple smart we all know that. He Literally just told us some things will never be known:

"The mysteries of what really happened will never be known by the general public and as far as I'm concerned, it's perfectly fine!"

Sometimes being smart means not telling everything you know.

Thanks for chiming in CJ..it is always cool to hear from one of the big time players on here.
Thank, bud, it's fun....sometimes. ;) These days people would rather climb a tree to hear a lie than stand on the ground to hear the truth.

I don't hustle pool anymore, several years ago I made a commitment to be turn completely honest and truthful.....then I built a 4 million dollar nightclub/restaurant/pool room and found out the "real world" was much more dishonest than the pool hustling/gambling world.

It's amazing how corrupt the world really is, Dallas, for instance is completely run by secret societies.....how do I know? Because I accidentally got involved with them through Martial Arts training and they represented me on a number of occasions, they totally control the legal system, and I'm sure it's not just Dallas. wink wink - This world is definitely not what it appears....not even a little bit!

Occasionally I do still mess with people, and as I do ask them "you know I was a sophisticated pool hustler don't you?!?" Some of them never catch on.....they say if you don't see the joke it's always on you......touche'

The funniest thing about people that haven't been around a lot of hustling situations, they are extremely gullible and naive' - almost to the point that I feel sorry for them.....especially people that believe what they see and hear on TV these days... after the Smith/Mundt Act in 2012 the MSM hasn't told the truth since. :ROFLMAO: You can tell them, show them proof, and explain/demonstrate exactly how they are doing it, all that happens is their eyes gloss over, and they give you that fluoride stare.....they would never last 3 days with money at the RACK in Detroit. LoL

The Game is the Teacher
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What's really sad is the fact that the US hasn't had a men's professional pool tour in TWENTY years and we're still re-hashing this one match almost THIRTY years after the fact. Men's pro pool is off-the-radar for a LONG list of reasons and this match/dump/bet/you-pick-the-name is only one small part of it. I have a question for those in the know back then: after the Camel tour went tango-uniform were there ever any talks with a different sponsor about keeping the tour alive? I mean, you had the stops and pretty decent organization. Why did no other co. get involved? No non-tobacco firms showed any interest? Just curious.
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
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What's really sad is the fact that the US hasn't had a men's professional pool tour in TWENTY years and we're still re-hashing this one match almost THIRTY years after the fact. Men's pro pool is off-the-radar for a LONG list of reasons and this match/dump/bet/you-pick-the-name is only one small part of it. I have a question for those in the know back then: after the Camel tour went tango-uniform were there ever any talks with a different sponsor about keeping the tour alive? I mean, you had the stops and pretty decent organization. Why did no other co. get involved? No non-tobacco firms showed any interest? Just curious.
If they can't advertise, they can't make money
 

Andy Hughes

Registered
Correct Stu. Here are the numbers if you add it all up per player. Seven guys chop up 50,000, that's $7,143 each. Add on $4,000 each for the Lebron wager (these bets had to be made by confederates of the players. They were not allowed to bet on the matches themselves). And add on the $2,500 in expense money and you have a total of $13,643 going to each player. That was a very good payday back then.

I think the appropriate phrase for such a scheme is "Penny wise and pound foolish."
Bernard Rogoff was one of the $200 bets, Jay. He told me about it, but by the time I made it to the Mirage the odds were dropped to 10-1. I was not 100% convinced that Bunny had the inside info & only bet a $100 at that point.
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bernard Rogoff was one of the $200 bets, Jay. He told me about it, but by the time I made it to the Mirage the odds were dropped to 10-1. I was not 100% convinced that Bunny had the inside info & only bet a $100 at that point.
Did he tell you the fix was in or just like the 20-1 odds?
 

u12armresl

One Pocket back cutter
Silver Member
Thank, bud, it's fun....sometimes. ;) These days people would rather climb a tree to hear a lie than stand on the ground to hear the truth.

I don't hustle pool anymore, several years ago I made a commitment to be turn completely honest and truthful.....then I built a 4 million dollar nightclub/restaurant/pool room and found out the "real world" was much more dishonest than the pool hustling/gambling world.

It's amazing how corrupt the world really is, Dallas, for instance is completely run by secret societies.....how do I know? Because I accidentally got involved with them through Martial Arts training and they represented me on a number of occasions, they totally control the legal system, and I'm sure it's not just Dallas. wink wink - This world is definitely not what it appears....not even a little bit!

Occasionally I do still mess with people, and as I do ask them "you know I was a sophisticated pool hustler don't you?!?" Some of them never catch on.....they say if you don't see the joke it's always on you......touche'

The funniest thing about people that haven't been around a lot of hustling situations, they are extremely gullible and naive' - almost to the point that I feel sorry for them.....especially people that believe what they see and hear on TV these days... after the Smith/Mundt Act in 2012 the MSM hasn't told the truth since. :ROFLMAO: You can tell them, show them proof, and explain/demonstrate exactly how they are doing it, all that happens is their eyes gloss over, and they give you that fluoride stare.....they would never last 3 days with money at the RACK in Detroit. LoL

The Game is the Teacher
And the funniest thing about people that have been around a lot of hustling situations, they are inherently dishonest but hold themselves out to be great people.
 
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