who wins

I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone who didn't see Buddy Hall play in the 70's can't make a fair comparison between him and the modern players. I would put a prime Buddy up against anyone I've ever seen in an ahead set of 9 ball or 10 ball...even Efren who was supposedly even better back then didn't want any part of Buddy. He made the fewest mistakes (if any) of anyone I've ever seen. I can't speak for Harold Worst or anyone before that but Buddy's the best I ever saw and everyone that saw Buddy back then says the exact same thing.

I can believe it. While I didn't see Buddy back in the 1970's, I did see him in the early 90's and he still played great then. I can't see why anyone would think that today's top players would be favorites against the tops of the early 90's: Buddy, Earl, Sigel, Varner, they all played great and if you look at their accu-stats averages they were just as good as today's.
 
I can believe it. While I didn't see Buddy back in the 1970's, I did see him in the early 90's and he still played great then. I can't see why anyone would think that today's top players would be favorites against the tops of the early 90's: Buddy, Earl, Sigel, Varner, they all played great and if you look at their accu-stats averages they were just as good as today's.

i had a 950 accu stat the only time i was on there.
tourneys dont mean much .
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone who didn't see Buddy Hall play in the 70's can't make a fair comparison between him and the modern players. I would put a prime Buddy up against anyone I've ever seen in an ahead set of 9 ball or 10 ball...even Efren who was supposedly even better back then didn't want any part of Buddy. He made the fewest mistakes (if any) of anyone I've ever seen. I can't speak for Harold Worst or anyone before that but Buddy's the best I ever saw and everyone that saw Buddy back then says the exact same thing.

What seprates Buddy are three things. His swing speed was almost/always the same for "every" shot (no one else that I've seen does this), his shape was always in "closer" than anyone else, he also cued whitey in the middle more often than "anyone" else. By applying these three principles he's minimizing arm movement, swing speed and excessive spin....and as we all know, damp dirty tables torture players that work the outside of the cue ball. ALSO, being in close he can always aim at either side of the pocket. I've NEVER seen any player simplify play like Cecil. In the long haul, his percentages of making the ball and getting shape were greater.
 
I look at Taylor as a one of a kind, like Efren. Takes traditional games, plays em different than every one else and beats ya his own way. I heard his high run in banks (Jay probably has the number) was in the low 30's, that alone separates him from most everybody thats ever lived. My guess 9 ball he'd get beat, but he'd beat Alex in "every" other game his own way. The Knoxville bear was a ''stood alone''. We'll probably never see anyone anywhere in the world play banks like he did, why, who knows, nowadays players focus is in different directions than the depression era gentlemen. One would think, someone in the phillipines would rise to the task, doubt it tho.

it was 47 in a row....
 
I can believe it. While I didn't see Buddy back in the 1970's, I did see him in the early 90's and he still played great then. I can't see why anyone would think that today's top players would be favorites against the tops of the early 90's: Buddy, Earl, Sigel, Varner, they all played great and if you look at their accu-stats averages they were just as good as today's.

the pockets they played on were a joke keep that in mind.
large mouth bass pockets.
 
i had a 950 accu stat the only time i was on there.
tourneys dont mean much .

Tourney's mean everything. It's the only legitimate verifieable record we have of grading players. The rest is hearsay. Long gambling matches only show who can stay awake the longest not who the better player is. One tournament might not mean much but a lifetime of tournaments show's who the best is. You think it was a coincidence that Sigel was so dominant tourny after tourny?
 
the game of 10 ball is diff from the past.
the phill would beat any of the great americans of the past or present.
they play a diff game and a better one.
lets face it jay you know this.
you know if alex or orcullo or lee van played any american 10 ball 15 ahead or a long race you would bet on the phill.
from past or today thats just the way it is.

You are a pretty smart fellow Chris but you don't know everything yet. This game is all about human beings and what they are capable of. It is true that I would bet the top filipinos over the top Americans TODAY! But I'm not so sure I would have bet anybody over Earl in a tournament match in the 80's and 90's. He had a higher speed than anyone else. There is no tournament player today (not Wu, not Dennis, not Ralf, not Mika) that has reached the level Earl was at in his prime. Once again I am only talking tournament pool here.

For money Buddy is one of the two or three best I ever saw. Talk about a grinder, he could wear out a whole poolroom if they lined them up for ten days. You haven't seen 'grind' until you saw Buddy at his best. He would amble around that table all day, playing perfect position and never missing a ball. The only filipino I ever saw who could stand up to that is probably Parica, who I rate above Alex, Dennis or Lee Van. Once again these are humans Chris, and one of the players will eventually wilt. Parica would not wilt if you played for days, weeks, months or years. I've seen all the other filipinos get weak at times and miss balls and position. Jose had a higher gear gambling. You just didn't get to see it.

Alex at his best would not be a favorite over Parica at his best. If you don't believe me (and obviously you don't) ask the older filipinos. See what they tell you about little Jose. Now back to Mr. Worst. He was a very unusual human being, not like most mortal men. He was capable of raising his game to whatever level it took to win the money. If he was playing someone with Alex's capabilities he would just play a little better. I have no doubt in my mind he was fully capable of playing "no miss" pool all day if that's what it took to win. And if that wasn't good enough, he would figure out a way to run more racks. Yes, he was that good.

Did you know that he went to South America and took on the best Three Cushion players in the world in a very unfriendly environment AND WON! He had never played in this level of competition before, winning the American championship over a much softer field. Now he had to play all the legends of Three Cushions, men who had played all their lives. Worst found a way to raise his game maybe two full speeds. And he did it almost overnight! That's like Alex going to Europe and winning a snooker tournament. I know he plays good snooker, but what chance would he have with those guys over there? If you said zero you're right. By the way Worst was all of 24 when he did this.

He came back home, and at age 30 with Three Cushion on the wane, he decided to enter a few pool tournaments. He didn't win the first year, but after that it was all over. He came back the second year and started beating all the guys who beat him. I saw him beat Cornbread in Detroit playing One Pocket and 9-Ball. That's when Cornbread was one of the best. Within two years, Harold Worst was considered one of the top pool players in the world, at all games! He beat a gaff game in Johnston City where 21 balls are racked in six rows. To win he had to run 18 to 20 balls in one pocket! Without missing and without BIH after the break. HELLO! That's a lot of traffic to maneuver around. I saw this Chris with my own eyes. I wouldn't bet on anyone today to do this. NOT ALEX! NOT EFREN! NOT GOD!

Please don't make the mistake of judging someone you didn't know. If you had seen Worst play, you would still be talking about it for the rest of your life. If for some reason you still don't believe me, I would be more than happy to offer the same game to Alex and you guys can empty out betting with me. I mean it - pick a number! You want to win 100 grand, all Alex has to do is beat the same game that Worst did 40 odd years ago. And I didn't stutter Chris.
 
Last edited:
the pockets they played on were a joke keep that in mind.
large mouth bass pockets.

Nick varner won the 1980 14.1 World Championships on very tough pockets and slow cloth.
They did have tight pockets then, some events had big pockets but it didn't seem to affect the top players.
 
You are a pretty smart fellow Chris but you don't know everything yet. This game is all about human beings and what they are capable of. It is true that I would bet the top filipinos over the top Americans TODAY! But I'm not so sure I would have bet anybody over Earl in a tournament match in the 80's and 90's. He had a higher speed than anyone else. There is no tournament player today (not Wu, not Dennis, not Ralf, not Mika) that has reached the level Earl was at in his prime. Once again I am only talking tournament pool here.

For money Buddy is one of the two or three best I ever saw. Talk about a grinder, he could wear out a whole poolroom if they lined them up for ten days. You haven't seen 'grind' until you saw Buddy at his best. He would amble around that table all day, playing perfect position and never missing a ball. The only filipino I ever saw who could stand up to that is probably Parica, who I rate above Alex, Dennis or Lee Van. Once again these are humans Chris, and one of the players will eventually wilt. Parica would not wilt if you played for days, weeks, months or years. I've seen all the other filipinos get weak at times and miss balls and position. Jose had a higher gear gambling. You just didn't get to see it.

Alex at his best would not be a favorite over Parica at his best. If you don't believe me (and obviously you don't) ask the older filipinos. See what they tell you about little Jose. Now back to Mr. Worst. He was a very unusual human being, not like most mortal men. He was capable of raising his game to whatever level it took to win the money. If he was playing someone with Alex's capabilities he would just play a little better. I have no doubt in my mind he was fully capable of playing "no miss" pool all day if that's what it took to win. And if that wasn't good enough, he would figure out a way to run more racks. Yes, he was that good.

Did you know that he went to South America and took on the best Three Cushion players in the world in a very unfriendly environment AND WON! He had never played in this level of competition before, winning the American championship over a much softer field. Now he had to play all the legends of Three Cushions, men who had played all their lives. Worst found a way to raise his game maybe two full speeds. And he did it almost overnight! That's like Alex going to Europe and winning a snooker tournament. I know he plays good snooker, but what chance would he have with those guys over there? If you said zero you're right. By the way Worst was all of 24 when he did this.

He came back home, and at age 30 with Three Cushion on the wane, he decided to enter a few pool tournaments. He didn't win the first year, but after that it was all over. He came back the second year and started beating all the guys who beat him. I saw him beat Cornbread in Detroit playing One Pocket and 9-Ball. That's when Cornbread was one of the best. Within two years, Harold Worst was considered one of the top pool players in the world, at all games! He beat a gaff game in Johnston City where 21 balls are racked in six rows. To win he had to run 18 to 20 balls in one pocket! Without missing and without BIH after the break. HELLO! That's a lot of traffic to maneuver around. I saw this Chris with my own eyes. I wouldn't bet on anyone today to do this. NOT ALEX! NOT EFREN! NOT GOD!

Please don't make the mistake of judging someone you didn't know. If you had seen Worst play, you would still be talking about it for the rest of your life. If for some reason you still don't believe me, I would be more than happy to offer the same game to Alex and you guys can empty out betting with me. I mean it - pick a number! You want to win 100 grand, all Alex has to do is beat the same game that Worst did 40 odd years ago. And I didn't stutter Chris.


don't forget Jay that the Argentine mob wanted him to dump the finals....worst did not and won the world championship....the Argentine pres invited him and his wife over for dinner and told them they were leaving first thing in the mourning...and they did lol.

Worst stood up to the Mafia brother....and walked out alive lol
 
the pockets they played on were a joke keep that in mind.
large mouth bass pockets.

well if your going to trash the big pockets, lets not forget the slow as hell cloth and not super shiny high density bla bla balls we have now. I for one at least when it comes to Worst playing....he would butt rape alex. Hell don't forget that Taylor dam near won a world championship in 14.1 and didn't even play the game. Just b/c the equipemtn was perfect back when doesn't mean that the quality of the players was inferior to todays in any way.
 
Tourney's mean everything. It's the only legitimate verifieable record we have of grading players. The rest is hearsay. Long gambling matches only show who can stay awake the longest not who the better player is. One tournament might not mean much but a lifetime of tournaments show's who the best is. You think it was a coincidence that Sigel was so dominant tourny after tourny?

Bobby,
You sumed that up very nicely!

A hundred years from now, people will still be able to check and see who won the 1937 World 14.1 Championship. But will they ever know about two guys matching up in a poolroom somewhere for $10,000 per set? No, not unless they archive AZB!

Thanks also to you, Jay, PoolBum, Mr 441, Island Drive & others who remember the greats in our wonderful sport who preceeded the fine players of today.

Gone but never forgotten!
 
don't forget Jay that the Argentine mob wanted him to dump the finals....worst did not and won the world championship....the Argentine pres invited him and his wife over for dinner and told them they were leaving first thing in the mourning...and they did lol.

Worst stood up to the Mafia brother....and walked out alive lol

Correct, he had to beat the great Argentine player Navarro in his home country in front of a packed house, with threats being made on his life if he won. And he was 24! Anyone else would be running for the hills, including Alex. Like I said Harold Worst was a rare man, both on and off the table. He was powerfully built, about six feet tall and maybe 200 pounds. He had big meaty hands. I wouldn't want to be the guy who he grabbed first in a fight. I have a sneaking suspicion that he could take care of himself.

Even the mob guys in Vegas were a little in awe of him. His rep was that strong. They all knew about what he did in South America, standing up to the gangsters down there.
 
Correct, he had to beat the great Argentine player Navarro in his home country in front of a packed house, with threats being made on his life if he won. And he was 24! Anyone else would be running for the hills, including Alex. Like I said Harold Worst was a rare man, both on and off the table. He was powerfully built, about six feet tall and maybe 200 pounds. He had big meaty hands. I wouldn't want to be the guy who he grabbed first in a fight. I have a sneaking suspicion that he could take care of himself.

Even the mob guys in Vegas were a little in awe of him. His rep was that strong. They all knew about what he did in South America, standing up to the gangsters down there.


Guy had bawls of phenolic aparantly when the rest were still ivory lmao
 
What seprates Buddy are three things. His swing speed was almost/always the same for "every" shot (no one else that I've seen does this), his shape was always in "closer" than anyone else, he also cued whitey in the middle more often than "anyone" else. By applying these three principles he's minimizing arm movement, swing speed and excessive spin....and as we all know, damp dirty tables torture players that work the outside of the cue ball. ALSO, being in close he can always aim at either side of the pocket. I've NEVER seen any player simplify play like Cecil. In the long haul, his percentages of making the ball and getting shape were greater.

One of the greatest matches on Accu-Stats is a match between Earl and Buddy in the December, 1990 Sands tourney. Buddy is in dead stroke and has Earl flummoxed, up 9-4 in a race to 11. Buddy breaks the balls perfectly, but nothing goes down. The next time Buddy shoots, Earl is on the hill up 10-9 and Buddy is kicking the length of the table buried under three balls. Buddy made a great attempt at the kick and just missed. Earl took BIH and ran the rack to win the match. After he broke up 9-4 Buddy had exactly one shot, which was a nearly impossible kick.
 
Correct, he had to beat the great Argentine player Navarro in his home country in front of a packed house, with threats being made on his life if he won. And he was 24!

Did you have a good seat for that match Jay, or were you the ref? :grin:
 
Did you know that he went to South America and took on the best Three Cushion players in the world in a very unfriendly environment AND WON! He had never played in this level of competition before, winning the American championship over a much softer field. Now he had to play all the legends of Three Cushions, men who had played all their lives. Worst found a way to raise his game maybe two full speeds. And he did it almost overnight!

C'mon Jay! We all know those guys back then played on tables with buckets for pockets!
 
C'mon Jay! We all know those guys back then played on tables with buckets for pockets!

dam dude you had me half keeled over when I realized you were joking ROFLMAO!

Sometimes I'm a ditz.....I'm sitting here thinking wait this guys talking about pockets in billiards? WTF? Oh wait thats right Pool bum has a few thousand posts....he must be joking....HAR HAR HAR, I'm such a dum arse sometimes lmao.


I was blonde as a child, sometimes it takes me just a sec....
Grey GHost
 
Guy had bawls of phenolic aparantly when the rest were still ivory lmao

I heard a first hand account of this incident involving Worst: It was I believe the 1966 14.1 U.S. Open, Worst was very sick with only about 2 or 3 months to live (and he knew it) He was emaciated and looked terrible and wearing a back brace. He draws Mosconi who had come out of retirement to play and was still playing well. Mosconi has a big run and misses leaving a very tough shot. Worst gets up cold and in the shape he's in and fires it in without blinking and proceeds to run 80+ balls before a miscue ended his run. My source told me that everyone was in awe that a guy could play that flawlessly when he was so sick and dying. That's one tough guy.
 
Tourney's mean everything. It's the only legitimate verifieable record we have of grading players. The rest is hearsay. Long gambling matches only show who can stay awake the longest not who the better player is. One tournament might not mean much but a lifetime of tournaments show's who the best is. You think it was a coincidence that Sigel was so dominant tourny after tourny?

i can tell you are not a player.
 
Back
Top