Why a segregation of Male and Female in this sport?

In pool, IMHO women can complete equally with men....watching those pro females - some of those women are 5' 4", weigh 110 pounds, and they break the balls with the best of them. To win at 9-ball, all you need to be able to do on the break is control the cue and make one ball.....the rest is shot-making. Both Jasmin, Karen, and a number of those females have intensity and talent at an incredibly high level. I firmly believe that women can compete as equals in pool, and I think they've shown in by competing in events with the men in the past.

From a political and philosophical standpoint, I do not appreciate nor support women, nor any other group, that only wishes to have equality when it is a pure benefit. As an example, women that want to have the advantage of women only events, yet also want the advantage of competing in men's events when it benefits them. Either you want to be equal or you don't???? Allow me to explain before I get blasted :D My ex-wife was really good at this.....when she wanted something, like let's say she wanted to drive when we had a night on the town......she'd mention something about this not being the good old days, and that women are equal and she should be able to drive (which I gladly obliged).....then, when it was time to mow the lawn (which she hated), it was time for me to do my manly duties.....granted, I always mowed the lawn and don't mind it, but the approach of wanting equality only when it is a benefit does not appeal to me ;)
 
Big Perm said:
In pool, IMHO women can complete equally with men....watching those pro females - some of those women are 5' 4", weigh 110 pounds, and they break the balls with the best of them.
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This is nonsense. At the highest levels in any sport, woman can never compete with men equally. That's just the way it is. The main reason so many people believe this nonsense is because of the constant brainwashing they receive on TV where the man is almost always a weak, bumbling idiot and the woman is the stronger of the 2. On television, women are almost always strong and men are almost always weak.

You don't have to be very big or strong to have a powerful break. Bustamante's a little guy and he has one of the hardest breaks in 9-ball. Having watched most of the woman pros break, I can honestly say that I break harder and make balls on the break more often than almost any of them I've seen, and I'm just an APA skill level 6. I don't know how to soft break, though.

Big Perm said:
To win at 9-ball, all you need to be able to do on the break is control the cue and make one ball.....the rest is shot-making. Both Jasmin, Karen, and a number of those females have intensity and talent at an incredibly high level. I firmly believe that women can compete as equals in pool, and I think they've shown in by competing in events with the men in the past.
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These women are very talented, but not as talented as the top men. Jasmin's pretty close. She'd give any man a tough match, as she has before. In a long race, breaking from the box and having a 30 second shot clock, none of these women would have a chance to win a multi player tournament against the top men, although they'd be very competitive.

I've heard Johnny Archer and Earl Strickland say basically the same thing that I'm saying several times. If you asked one of them, they'd tell you that the women don't play as good as the men.
 
Think about it

Men have some obvious physical advantages in pool: Stronger break and longer reach. Right there, you've got the difference.

But what about chess? Why do men outperform ladies on the chessboard? The only conclusion you can draw is that men have more stamina. The ladies are catching up, in pool as well as in chess, but it's still a different game for each gender.
 
Your friend is blowing smoke. Too bad that will never happen, because MANY people would take that bet! Jean was great in her day...but top 5 in a month, now? Not a prayer...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

dave sutton said:
jean was an exception. i was told by a very good friend the jean could pick up a cue today and be top 5 in the world next month. he knows her well
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It's really simple.....

MasterClass said:
Still the segregation exist.

So the question is; is it because Men are afraid of the women competitors?

Too few women feels that they have a chance to compete toe to toe with the men?

Would it be good for the sport if the tournament were all thrown open. One thing for sure is that there will be a lot of new play ground for the ladies. Would male competitors start to lose interest? Shy away? overall participation drops etc etc?

Or it just cannot happen because there is some political issue behind all this man women thing?

I for one things that it will be great for the sport. A level playing field, new breeds of players. Also, where the honey goes, the bees will follow.
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regardless of whether the women are able to compete with the men, it still stands that they have tournaments that the men CAN'T play in, so why should the women get to compete in their OWN tournaments that men can't but the men can't compete in the women's tournaments????

It's definitely not a matter of the men being afraid to compete agaisnt the women, the top men aren't afraid to compete against ANYONE.

What their should be to minimize the discrepancies between men and women is to have a majors and a minors instead of a men and women's with actual qualifying parameters.

Then the women who CAN compete with the men will and the men who can't compete at the top but can compete with the majority of women's pros with have the opportunity without feeling the women are taking advantage of them.

Jaden
 
Studies have shown that in golf men have statistically demonstrated an advantage in the "touch" statistics. For example for the 2008 season the putting leader on the men's tour took an average of 1.58 putts per GIR while the LPGA leader took 1.74. In sand saves the PGA leader was 64% while the woman's leader was at 60%.

I'm not sure why this is. I don't know if men have better "touch", more imagination, better fine motor skills, a better "eye" or what. Maybe it's none of these and the reason is something else.

There is also the numbers game. The population of male pool players is way larger than that of women. Odds are the best of the larger male population are going to be better than that of the women.
 
Not this debate again :-)

There really shouldn't be any segregation at least as far as the make pros are concerned. They should welcome any female who can qualify based on her skills.

I do however think that overall the women deserve a league of their own, i.e. the WPBA because as a group their average skill is much much lower than men's and therefore they need something that inspires more women to play.

Two things that do inspire women to play are leagues and divisions of their own AND when they do mix it up with the guys and do well.

Mass makes Class. As a percentage of serious players women are still far outnumbered by men. Until we see that gap closing and women not patronized and coddled in the poolroom then as a group their skill level will continue to be lower than men's on average.

So in this day and age, even though some organizations like the UPA, the WPA, and the US Open discriminate against women, there are still a lot of truly competitive opportunities for women to play against the best and thereby give themselves every opportunity to become the best.

Maybe someday pool will be a competitve physical sport that is genderless. I hope so. I hope that in my life I see a time when we only speak of who the best player is with no regard to their sex.
 
Jaden said:
regardless of whether the women are able to compete with the men, it still stands that they have tournaments that the men CAN'T play in, so why should the women get to compete in their OWN tournaments that men can't but the men can't compete in the women's tournaments????

It's definitely not a matter of the men being afraid to compete agaisnt the women, the top men aren't afraid to compete against ANYONE.

What their should be to minimize the discrepancies between men and women is to have a majors and a minors instead of a men and women's with actual qualifying parameters.

Then the women who CAN compete with the men will and the men who can't compete at the top but can compete with the majority of women's pros with have the opportunity without feeling the women are taking advantage of them.

Jaden
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For the same reason that there are B-C-D skill level tournaments. Those tournaments are reserved for players in those skill classes, not for those above them.

The women, as a group, are in a lower skill class than men as a group. Thus they deserve, at this time, a league of their own.

I agree with you that there should simply be a clear path to becoming a pro that is genderless and those that have the designation PRO are there because they have earned it through their skill.

That would be great. Got a spare couple million laying around to finance it? I would if I did. But first I would need enough money to buy the APA, VNEA, and BCA leagues so that I could proceed with my plan that those leagues start paying for a pro tour by giving up a tiny percentage of weekly league dues. Then I would make a clear path from each league to becoming a pro player and it would be genderless. Every player would simply be a number - just like Chess Ratings - the higher the number the higher the skill level and there wouldn't be any shortcuts.

But many have tried similar things in the past and as usual in this sport they have been woefully underfunded, understaffed, and completely oblivious to the great amount of apathy in this "industry" when it comes to treating pool as a sport.
 
I'd like to casually suggest the idea of "Co-ed scotch-double". And I imagine there would be a mass market for this. Here are some reasons:

1, This would clearly show and explain the importance of good position play in a team situation.

2, On TV any theme showing good collaboration between two people will sell. Example ice skating, ball room dancing, tennis, and even cooking sometimes.

3, It will encourage man to tidy up and woman to listen :rolleyes:


Perhaps there are more, please feel free to add
 
blueridge said:
I'm against segregation, but I think the main reason is because the men play better. I don't there's a woman on earth that would have a chance in hell to win a tournament in a long race against the top men. There certainly are a few women who are talented enough to make it to the late rounds. No woman could win a tournament with the top men in 9-ball in a race to 15 breaking from the box, for example. They don't break hard enough. I can break better than most of the women pros in 9-ball, and I'm just an APA SL6.
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I always seem to get drawn into this debate... I don't know you so I could be wrong but unless you break in the very high 20's, there are several women that can break as hard as you. Sarah Rousey for one said on TAR that she's broken in the high 20's before. I think Tiffany Nelson can break pretty hard too.

Have you had your break speed measured? If so, what is it?
 
MasterClass said:
...So why the segregation? Is there some political reason behind? I know most tournaments in the region still bans female from male tournaments. Would male participants diminish should more female start to take up pool?...
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I'll tell you why and when you think about it, you'll know I'm right...

Women have always claimed to be the smarter of the 2 sexes. There are many less women who play pool than men. If you group everyone together, there is less chance of a woman winning any money.

BUT, the women have figured this out...

If they segregate their competition from the men's, the 60 men can compete for the top 2 or 3 spaces and their odds of taking home the money are slim. But, since less women play, the 8 women who compete against each other for the top 2 or 3 spaces have much better odds of taking home some money. (And they don't usually have to play nearly as well to win that money, either!)

And the men agree to let it happen, because they think they are being smarter by keeping the women out of their game. And once in a while, you will hear the complaint that women can play just as well as men. I totally agree. But, let the men have their way, so the women can make more money at the same game. The only time pool will be equal to women is when there are just as many women who play the game.
 
Alex Kanapilly said:
I always seem to get drawn into this debate... I don't know you so I could be wrong but unless you break in the very high 20's, there are several women that can break as hard as you. Sarah Rousey for one said on TAR that she's broken in the high 20's before. I think Tiffany Nelson can break pretty hard too.

Have you had your break speed measured? If so, what is it?
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I've never clocked my break speed, but I estimate that my speed has been in the mid 20s at best. I'm not a very good player, but I do have a pretty powerful break. I doubt that I could break in the high 20s, but I think I can break harder than the majority of woman pros and some of the men based on what I've seen on ESPN, and DVDs I've watched.
 
I liked it when the women competed with the men. With very few exceptions, they didn't finish any higher than the top 32 in the tournaments they played.

As far as I am concerned they (men and women) are just pool players wanting to compete and win some money.

Segregation just separates the $$$$. Now if the men had a product that could compete with the women then IMO there would be more casinos supporting POOL Players (men and women) tournaments like Turning Stone.
 
It's exactly as others have said - there simply isn't a big enough pool of women able to compete with the more numerous upper level pro men. That being said, I agree with the notion that pool completely levels the playing field.

All this talk of break speed seems like a fallacy - it ignores the fact that A) 9-ball is the game of choice right now and the cut break has been shown to be highly effective in the game, and B) we're guessing the break speed of the sexes based on what? Average build and muscle mass/structure? Line up all of the pros in the world and find me a scientific method that would pick out Archer and Pagulayan as some of the hardest breakers - you just can't base break speed off anything but the actual results of each individual player.

What's really stupid about this segregation isn't the existence of two leagues - but rather that the few competitive women who can win on the men's tours like Jasmin Ouschan get penalized for doing so.
 
Jean Balukas played in a few Men's events. What was the best she ever did? Did she ever win? Just curious...
 
This debate is interesting because it comes up regularly with similar thoughts and comments for the most part.

Men and Women are different: bone density, muscle to fat ratio, left to right brain thinking...all kinds of areas. However, with that being said - should men and women compete with one another? Yes...if THEY choose to.

That is one reason why the National Championship Series is open to both sexes as well as amateur and professional.

I applaud Jasmin and any person regardless of sex who challenge themselves and works to break past any limitations they have facing them, whether placed upon them by others or themselves.

That is how we grow as people and a species, both inside and outside of pool is it not?
 
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