Why Pivot?

[SpiderWebComm]

Nothing has changed. I still don't think aiming entirely by feel is the best practice (although some are stuck with that). That doesn't change the fact that feel plays a fundamental part in all aiming - even yours.

Pat Johnson - BUT-BUT-BUT- BUT-BUT-BUT-BUT-BUT
ROTFLMAO. You can try twisting, spinning, and weaseling all over the place but it's too late. You said what you said and it was very specific.

NOT this garbage about everyone does and should play by feel.

NO, FEEL DOES NOT PLAY A FUNDAMENTAL PART IN MY AIMING ANY MORE. IT MAY HAVE AT ONE TIME, BUT NOT NOW. DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME WHAT I DO OR DON'T DO.

Feel definitely plays a part in how the ball will spin with English off a rail and how hard or soft to strike the CB and a couple of other areas, BUT NOT AIMING.


Whether you're trying to deliberately misrepresent that or just don't get it, I'm not surprised (and don't much care) either way.

You don't much care? That's the best news anyone has heard from you in 20 years. I guess you'll be on your merry way and NOT EVER POST TO ME AGAIN ABOUT THIS GARBAGE. DON'T MAKE A LIAR OUT OF YOURSELF FOR THE ENTIRE POOL WORLD TO SEE.

Anyway, thanks for being my number one fan and archivist - I hope you're learning something from all my historical posts.

If you publish I get a cut.

pj
chgo

Yes, I learned you had more going for you the way the game should be played 20 years ago opposed to now. But then again like I said, I think you still truly believe it. But you can't hold to your guns while at the same time doing your best to blast CTE.

You MUST HAVE the FEEL crap and SUBCONSCIOUS mind stuff going to have any chance of winning that obsessive negative argument.

I'll publish it over and over in this forum. You can bet your last dime on that.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'll publish it over and over in this forum. You can bet your last dime on that.

lol

Your big blue obsession with me is very flattering.

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

I believe that when I use my experienced judgement to determine that my aim looks correct, and that my body and stroke are aligned accordingly, it can be called "feel". When using any aiming method, we first use visuals to align our body up with the shot, and then we align our stroke up with what we think or know is the correct aim line. Each of these processes (visuals and body/stroke alignment) require judgment, where our experience lets us know if our body is truly aligned to what we are seeing. You can't see your body/alignment. You "feel" it, mentally and physically. It's a sense called proprioception -- knowing exactly what position your body parts are in without the benefit of seeing them. We "feel" this. Everybody does. If it doesn't feel right then your body is probably not lined up in accordance with what your eyes are seeing. In this sense, we all play with feel. Speed and spin is a feel that requires muscle memory, and it's not the same as the feeling of knowing when a shot is lined correctly or not.

 

[LAMas]

I also use "feel" on straight in shots.

 

[Dan White]

Shouldn't the shot look right before you drop down?

The more I think about it I'd say on shallower shots I'm deciding on where I need to be before I drop down, but I don't necessarily get there right away. I'm getting into the shot line as soon as I start getting down. Maybe it's a matter of being lazy. On more acute angles, like a standard 14.1 break shot, I'm getting on the right shot line from the beginning. However, just from habit I'm still going to look at the line up of the two balls straight in before I get on the correct angle. I'll have to pay more attention next time and see if I actually do that every time. It is something I should be consistent with, I think.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I also use "feel" on straight in shots.

I think everybody does - and not just to "feel" their body in correct stance; I think we need to use our subconscious "recognition system" to tell us when the shot is correctly aimed too. Yes, even on straight shots, and even on center-to-edge shots (although maybe less on those kinds of "obvious" shots than on others).
pj
chgo

 

[Dan White]

This pivot has nothing to do with "when the shot looks right." Also no micro-adjustments. He's aiming center to center and pivoting to a specific spot on the OB.

He can't be any more clear in his verbal description and the camera view shows it.

But I just have the feeling his simplicity and specifics for how it's done are going to become very convoluted and dissected negatively within seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIUy9x_J410

If anyone sets these shots up on the table and actually executes as he states, the balls go in. No spatial intelligence needed or required nor will it be better than actual results by performance.

Dave, with all due respect, you're not that gullible. Of course you can pocket a large percentage of shots with 3 aim points, especially on an 8' table. I can show you in Mike's video where he is adjusting his stoke mid way as he shoots. It is so apparent you can simply slow down the youtube video and see on a couple of shots. History has shown that video proof doesn't change anyone's mind so I won't bother.

Let's say you're right and you can make 100% of shots with 3 aim points. Explain to me how he made the following two shots with a "75%" hit if he is not making adjustments mid stroke:

1st shot: The 4 ball is aimed right at about 3/4 diamond straight into the rail and he makes the shot with a 75% hit:
https://youtu.be/lIUy9x_J410?t=39s

2nd shot: The 7 ball is aimed right at about the left point or possibly right at the left facing. He supposedly makes the shot, again with a 75% hit and it goes right into the left facing. He says "split the difference" which is a 75% hit.
https://youtu.be/lIUy9x_J410?t=14m29s

I'd like YOU to go to the table and actually try these shots. Line up the 7 and cue ball near the rail so the 7 points at the left pocket corner and then tell me how you did with a 75% hit.

 

[Low500]

-------------------------------

 

[LAMas]

I think everybody does - and not just to "feel" their body in correct stance; I think we need to use our subconscious "recognition system" to tell us when the shot is correctly aimed too. Yes, even on straight shots, and even on center-to-edge shots (although maybe less on those kinds of "obvious" shots than on others).
pj
chgo

I also use the stick above the OB and CB to see the 2nd leg with the line from the OB to the pocket/target for the 1st leg to see the included angle created.

Be well

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Of course you can pocket a large percentage of shots with 3 aim points, especially on an 8' table.

For a spot shot:

To a generous 5" pocket on the smallest 8-foot table 3 aim points only work for 1 in 6 cut angles.

To a 4 1/2" corner pocket on a 9-foot table they only work for 1 in 8.

That's not large to me.

pj
chgo

 

[Mirza]

Misunderstood/misrepresented by you. Of course this particular set up doesn't cover the entire gamut of cut angles but it covers a much greater range than ONE CUT ANGLE.

Something you've never understood is although you're doing the same thing, each time there's an angle change you're still aiming center to center and then pivoting to 3/4 or 1/4 but it's a different center and different 3/4 or 1/4 than the other one.

Yeah, I know impossible and has no bearing on anything. What's impossible is talking to someone who refuses to get on the table with it and bear it out.

I CHALLENGE ANYONE AND EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM TO TAKE IT TO THE TABLE AND REPORT YOUR RESULTS. Eventually it WON'T work, but if you know where to aim NEXT with a pivot, IT WILL.

HINT: AIM CCB to 3/4 or 1/4 on the OB and pivot the tip to EDGE of OB. BOTH ARE FIXED AIM POINTS WITH NO NEED FOR ALTERATIONS.

Also, you're doing this with an OUTSIDE pivot to those points. It could also be done with an INSIDE alignment on the CB pivoting back to center on the CB.

I actually tried this and it didn't work for me, I use a 314-2 shaft, maybe that is the reason?

 

[cookie man]

I think everybody does - and not just to "feel" their body in correct stance; I think we need to use our subconscious "recognition system" to tell us when the shot is correctly aimed too. Yes, even on straight shots, and even on center-to-edge shots (although maybe less on those kinds of "obvious" shots than on others).
pj
chgo

We are happy you think that, please stop trying to ram your thinking down our throats. Some of us don't need to make all those sub conscience adjustments, way too much movement for us

 

[SpiderWebComm]

lol

Your big blue obsession with me is very flattering.

pj
chgo

Your obsession with yourself and CTE far exceeds anything in big blue.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I think everybody does - and not just to "feel" their body in correct stance; I think we need to use our subconscious "recognition system" to tell us when the shot is correctly aimed too. Yes, even on straight shots, and even on center-to-edge shots (although maybe less on those kinds of "obvious" shots than on others).
pj
chgo

Total bullshit! It's 180 degrees from what you said before CTE hit the internet and what you really believed. These are YOUR words:

Pat Johnson:
I don't agree. It's true that many players aim by "feel," but that
doesn't mean that every player "should" aim this way. And how is
anybody supposed to follow these instructions? "Get a sense for the
target and shoot?" What does that mean to anybody but you? Is it like
"You'll know it when you see it?"

Now that makes 100% sense!

I think a player should have an idea of what he's aiming at, and what
he's aiming at it. For instance, I aim the contact point on the cue
ball (which I have to imagine, because it's on the other side of the cue
ball) at the contact point on the object ball. To help me do this
accurately, I aim the cue stick at the point it would be touching on the
"ghost ball" (this is the imaginary ball sitting in the spot the cue
ball will occupy when it hits the object ball) as if I was shooting the
same shot with the two balls frozen together. (Of course, I adjust all
this for the combined effect of squirt, swerve and throw).

Very visual oriented and adhering to what YOUR EYES tell you.
Not some gremlin inside your head.

By the way, this isn't a complicated calculation of some kind that I do
while I'm aiming. I just try to point something (my stick and the cue
ball) at something (the ghost ball and object ball), rather than just
"feel" it.

YEP! HOORAY FOR PATRICK!

Pat Johnson
This is a good description, and helps illuminate what I don't like about the "intuitive" game. Trusting your intuition (or "left brain" or "instinct" or being "in stroke" or whatever) too often means you're just letting these unconscious mini-corrections cancel out other unconscious errors (in your choir, some off-key singers are cancelling out some other off-key singers).

100% complete sense before the CTE germ infected his mind and intelligence.

The short term result may be that you're making shots, but it's limiting (it only works with the shots you "know" and doesn't give you a knowledge base on which to build), unreliable (if you hit a slump, what caused it and how do you recover?), unteachable and probably some other things I haven't thought of today.

All correct and I'm sure you could have thought of more. Maybe you posted them and they're still buried in the archives.

There's a complete sense of confidence when your choir's all singing the same tune that you just don't get otherwise


If this doesn't sound like someone totally against "FEEL" I don't know what does. Weren't those crisp lucid days in life wonderful for you?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I actually tried this and it didn't work for me, I use a 314-2 shaft, maybe that is the reason?

I think it's a strong possibility. I know when I've put a Predator or OB-1 shaft on a cue or cues, it doesn't have very good results at all when pivoting from CCB to outside.

It's fine when using a manual pivot if you start from inside and then go to CCB for the stroke.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

For a spot shot:

To a generous 5" pocket on the smallest 8-foot table 3 aim points only work for 1 in 6 cut angles.

To a 4 1/2" corner pocket on a 9-foot table they only work for 1 in 8.

That's not large to me.

pj
chgo

All that tells me is you don't know what to do and how to do it or it's only been done in the confines of your skull and not on the table at all. Which is typical for you.

You can throw out all the numbers you want as if it means something and you know to impress others, but you don't. I don't think you even know where to start.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dave, with all due respect, you're not that gullible. Of course you can pocket a large percentage of shots with 3 aim points, especially on an 8' table.

No, it can also be done on a 9' table with 4 1/2" pockets which is what I have so I know what works and doesn't.

I can show you in Mike's video where he is adjusting his stoke mid way as he shoots. It is so apparent you can simply slow down the youtube video and see on a couple of shots. History has shown that video proof doesn't change anyone's mind so I won't bother.

Let's say you're right and you can make 100% of shots with 3 aim points.

Actually, you can. But in reality it's really 5. He doesn't count the 2 edges of the OB and they are used by him and anyone else who uses the system. It's not just for severe cuts or 1/2 ball hits.

Explain to me how he made the following two shots with a "75%" hit if he is not making adjustments mid stroke:

I will say, in this case with Little Mike, you've been astute enough with your observations and the way he describes it to accurately assess certain shots having an amount of mid stroke hocus pocus to make the balls.

You can in fact make all shots the way he does it with an outside pivot to 3 aim points but there's a little more to what he's saying regarding the amount of pivot.
You still go to a pivot to a known point but at times short or beyond where he states.
The known point does occur after a good amount of practice with the system which means you're not guessing and groping with doubt (aka feel) each time you have a shot.

Remember this is NOT Cte and how it works. It's also not Shiskebob which starts from inside pivoting to center and it also is not as accurate and consistent as Cte.

The edge of the OB also needs to be used as an aim point for various shots with pivot other than just edge to edge for 85-90 degree cuts.

If it sounds confusing then I guess it is. It can be shown and done.

Set some shots up that you CAN'T make and PM me with where the balls are on the table and I'll do what I can to set you up to make it.

I'm not going to answer 1000 questions from the entire membership here.

 

[Mirza]

With CTE there is no adjustments.

How can you adjust if you don't see the OB nor the pocket?!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l0fAwmeOq8

 

[BC21]

With CTE there is no adjustments.

How can you adjust if you don't see the OB nor the pocket?!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l0fAwmeOq8

I like Stan's song! He can sing and play guitar well.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I like Stan's song! He can sing and play guitar well.

When I went to Stan's house for CTE instruction, there was always something great being played. He has a collection of old Blues, new Blues with great guitar and harmonica, and Rock with super guitar playing.

You don't hear his stuff on regular radio or Sirius.

Just fantastic. Stan is no old fuddy duddy when it comes to music. (or anything else)