Why Pool is devastated by the new Smoking Laws.

[franko]

If You only knew

This is a stupid post. Smoking isn't the cause of pool rooms closing. Its the cost of everything going up and wages going down. Thanks teabaggers, we love trickle down economics. We love busting up unions so people can earn less. We love right to work states so wages can be depressed. We love having no health care or retirement. We love working minimum wage and paying more taxes than Bank of America. It just like the other lies you hear. The recession, depression that started in 2007-2008 is something Obama created. People are so stupid in this country, they will believe the lies they are told because they are too lazy to care about the truth.

kbill9 has it right, this is a game the requires cash...., when the money flows the game grows..., the backer's are in place and the pool halls can attrack customers..., no money, no customers. The highset grossing pool hall in Houston is Clicks and its non smoking, its got a crowd every night.

If you were aware of how our economy works , you would know the "teabaggers" are for LOWER taxes. LOWER taxes mean more TAKE home pay. That means YOU have more to spend.We have teaparty people because our economy has sunk to levels and people know something has to be done to wake our goverment up, before another depression hits.I used to come on AZ to read about Pool not politics.

 

[Quesports]

Well I guess then the only way we can save pool is to start up smoking again. Sadly after I spend $7.50 per pack of cigarettes I won't be able to play much pool! Oh Well...

 

[doitforthegame]

Pool room close because their low IQ customers can't smoke?? I think most Poolrooms close because the people who own them are not busn. savy at all. Most rooms are opened by a pool player/ gambler that has no clue how to attract customers into their busn. People are creatures of habbit and when they are having fun in your room they quickly get into the habbit of coming back.It takes more then a pooltable and a cigarette to keep people coming back.I ran two leagues for a now defunct poolroom in Northfield Ohio.I did it for free, because I LOVE the game. Not only did none of the 3 owners appreciate it they actually complained that their take was not enough.Each player paid $12 a week the romm received 50%.I tried to open the owners eyes to all the extra spin off busn. they received from the league players coming in thru out the week to practice to food and beverage sales etc.They could not grasp it.I ran the 2 leagues with NO HELP at all from ownership for 10yrs.Their constant griping and complaining about everything eventually wore most of the customers out.Every room in the Northeast Ohio area with the exception of Diamond Billiards in Akron has been owned by some inexperinced person with no mind for busn.Diamonds in Akron was owned by the late Larry Robinson a former owner of a Bowling Alley that took that Busn. plan to his pool room and was very successful.If our game of pool relies on low IQ people with a passion for smoking we are DOOMED!

It is unfortunate that I did not meet a marketing genius like as you when I was still a Senior Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of a Fortune 500 company and about to retire and open a pool room. It is truly amazing the depth of your insight of the absurd failure of room owners. Your understanding of their lack of acumen is astonishing. I would however recommend that if you do not have a spell check to invest in one. With multiple misspellings and lack of proper punctuation and grammar it would give someone the impression that you lack the basic ingredients to be taken seriously.

Bob

 

[david(tx)]

This thread is about what the new smoking laws mean to pool. This thread is not a rant about who has got what rights and the heavy hand of government.

The new smoking laws are a catastrophic blow and a dagger through the heart of the business of pocket billiards. How can this be? Many restaurants and bars that have rid themselves of smoking have actually seen their sales recover and increase. If this is true then this must also extrapolate to poolrooms. It doesn’t. We have lost more than 70% of our poolrooms.

The answer sits in the governments demographic reports on smokers. Its eye opening and easy to see why some businesses benefit and others are destroyed.

1. The more educated an individual is, the less likely he/she smokes. A person with a mere high school education is 8X more like to smoke than a person with a college education beyond a bachelor degree.
2. In parallel, the higher a person’s income and net worth is, the less likely a person smokes. At the same time, the closer a person’s income approaches the poverty line, the more likely a person smokes.
3. Looking at a graph of smokers from the ages of 18 to 80, the closer a person is to the age of 18, the more likely the person smokes.

Who is our clientele? Take a look at the big picture. When a restaurant disallows smoking, and its customer base is from the 2nd and 3rd tier (5 tiers) of the demographic scale, smokers are replaced with many more non-smokers. This is because the smoker to non-smoker ratio heavily favors the non-smokers in this demographic.

The business of pool draws heaviest from the lowest fifth of the demographic scale. The highest percentage of smokers is in this group. Pool appeals to this group and our poolrooms are built to serve this group. Tell them that they can’t smoke in a poolroom and who replaces them? The smoker to non-smoker ratio in this demographic is much different than the tiers above them.

The smoking laws are here to stay and they will only become more stringent. This is very bad news for pool. Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups. This can only happen if our great game becomes more and different than what it is. Right now, it does not compete well.

We live in a fragmented society , what some people find offensive , is another persons right . As others have mentioned through out the thread is that other entertainment avenues are suffering . Somebody posted a video from MSNBC recently that was about Olhausen's move from California to Tennessee and that the sale of their home tables was booming.

People are are holing up at home so that they can socialize with people like themselves and personal friends , the cost of entertaining yourself has gone down , some of it is free. What would you rather do , go out to bar with pool tables and get into arguments and fights over politics and such , or stay at home for a relaxing evening with friends and family.

I'd bet most people in pool rooms are there solo , not with friends , and that they are single . I believe the film industry is suffering revenue loss , and the reasons for that could be as varied as those around other entertainment choices. Look for people to isolate themselves more in the future.

 

[Ghosst]

Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups. This can only happen if our great game becomes more and different than what it is.

Since you are successful in the way you've run your hall, you must have some thoughts on how the (snipped) quote above is to be accomplished. I'd rather learn about that than listen to/read people say smoking is an icky thing only destitute simpletons take part in.

 

[Paul Schofield]

doitforthegame said:

Here in Mass. the change in smoking law did in fact hurt pool. within two years of the implementation of the law almost every pool room closed its doors. So, the non smokers were protected because the government felt it knew better. You know, an adult that didn't want to be exposed to "second hand smoke" could make a decision to enter the pool room. But the government didn't feel he was smart enough to do it, so it made the decision for him and everyone.

bgood said:

in NY there is no smoking in any room any more, which i personally know for a fact hurt the pool rooms here.

TJohio84 said:

no smoking anywere in Ohio either, its definately altered business for the worse here also

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

doitforthegame said:

Here in Mass. the change in smoking law did in fact hurt pool. within two years of the implementation of the law almost every pool room closed its doors. So, the non smokers were protected because the government felt it knew better. You know, an adult that didn't want to be exposed to "second hand smoke" could make a decision to enter the pool room. But the government didn't feel he was smart enough to do it, so it made the decision for him and everyone.

bgood said:

in NY there is no smoking in any room any more, which i personally know for a fact hurt the pool rooms here.

TJohio84 said:

no smoking anywere in Ohio either, its definately altered business for the worse here also

I don't doubt what these fine folks have said Paul, but this is, as you put it, anecdotal.

No question the smoking bans have had an effect. But the title of this thread is it devastated pool. There have been a lot of other things that have happened that have coincided in time with the smoking bans such as the economy has gone in the pooper, there are 700 channels on the TV instead of 6, many new forms of entertainment/recreation have surfaced such as fitness centers and video games, poker's popularity yada yada.

The way you put it makes it sound as though a) pool was doing fine until smoking bans came in and b) the only thing pool had going for it all these decades was that you could smoke in the pool hall. Once smoking wasn't allowed it all came tumbling down. I guess I give the game of pool more credit than that.

I just think the problem is way more complicated and multifaceted than that. Yes, the smoking thing has played a part, but just a part. In my anecdotal opinion, of course. I don't have any hard research to back it up either.:wink:

 

[krupa]

The smoking laws are here to stay and they will only become more stringent. This is very bad news for pool. Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups. This can only happen if our great game becomes more and different than what it is. Right now, it does not compete well.

I think this has been lost in the discussion. As you say, the smoking bans aren't going anywhere so what can poolroom owners do to attract new customers?

 

[RRfireblade]

If the people who played pool would rather smoke than play pool now, these are not the people 'building' the sport anyway.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

Pool room business is down across the board. Even in states that allow smoking in pool rooms.


Does anyone ever count the number of people LOST because of pool rooms being smoking? There are a lot of people who refuse to go to pool rooms because of the smoking.


Logically, one would think it would be a good idea for the pool industry to get on board with the growing trend, rather than fight tooth and nail to appeal to a shrinking, demographic. Less and less people are smoking. Less youth are taking it up as a habit than in the past. There are less smokers now, than at any point previously. The majority of potential customers are non-smokers, NOT smokers.


Why on Earth would the pool world keep on chasing after what will eventually become a small minority of people? That's not a strategy for long term success. Going after a demographic that will be almost obsolete.


Answer: Because they are short-sighted. They see the initial losses and don't see the potential growth. Pool rooms are and have been associated with smoking. They are also one of the last businesses and places to switch over or in many places, still have smoking. Because of that, perceptions and culture has not adapted yet. It takes time. Now is a very bad time for these laws to take effect, forcing pool rooms to change or adapt in the middle of a depression for pool rooms.


There's a lot of hysteria out there. Does a smoking ban keep people from going to bars and clubs? Do people just stop drinking? Do they stop going out? Of course not. I've been to places that are non-smoking but that have full liquor bars. There's PLENTY of people drinking. There's PLENTY of people who want to get trashed who have no interest in smoking or who smoke.


Is not liquor the #1 source of income for pool rooms? Yes it is.


Clinging to smokers is a recipe for disaster. Clinging to the smoking clientele is a sure way to go out of business down the road. Because their time is numbered. It's only a matter of time before these smoking laws are universal across the nation. Then what?

In states where smoking is banned most places, except for bars and pool rooms, pool rooms are actually doing well appealing to the crowd of smokers who want a place they can hang and light up a smoke. That's not a case of market forces in play, but rather manipulation by government through the use of laws. They will eventually stop smoking in these rooms and then what? Attracting that clientele will no longer work. Now comes the day of reckoning, when the pool room no longer has a clique clientele, but has to compete for "mainstream" customers of all types. They can no longer rely on being a safe-zone or island for those persecuted smokers to land.


Pool rooms are closing up all around the country. Even in smoking states, counties and cities. That has more to do with the bad economy. Don't forget, that thousands of rooms opened up in the last decade or so too. Rooms that did not exist before. They opened only because of the window of opportunity created by the various economic bubbles (dotcom, housing etcetera) and a lot of people had a lot of disposable income to go out and party. A lot of people don't have that free ATM anymore with their stocks or their home equity, and naturally there is a retraction.

Rooms that had a business model that survived prior to the bubble boom, are still surviving now. The only thing hurting them is the high cost of rent. But that is crushing all store front businesses.


The sooner pool rooms can adapt to non-smoking, the better. The sooner they can find a away to attract or bring back people who weren't strictly smokers, the better. It's going to be a long painful process for that industry to rebuild image and get new customers. The smoking-ban movement has been going on for at least 20 years. It's unfortunate that pool is the last one out, because all other businesses have had to adapt a long time ago and have figured it out. They also have many customers that might have been pool players.


If pool rooms really die off as a result, and cannot adapt or appeal to non-smokers - what can anyone say at that point? Maybe pool's time is up?

 

[LuckedOut]

I think this has been lost in the discussion. As you say, the smoking bans aren't going anywhere so what can poolroom owners do to attract new customers?

I think poolroom owners need to over come one major hurdle, and that is to reinfect the youth of this country with this great game.

We are in the process of building up a small private school here in Oregon.
To ensure our grades program is successful in the future, we are pumping money into our early childhood development program first because they will feed the school and hopefully keep the classrooms full.

The great thing about this school is that I will be proposing a billiard class to be taught and hopefully we will be able to dedicate an area to it in 2 years.
This is the type of school that teaches math to first graders through handwork and other skills through practical exercises. Wish me luck.

No, I don't think it was smoking that killed the pool hall, it was laziness and the blue blinking screen and vidiot games. This school is also anti-electronic media oriented for the younger ones for good reasons.

 

[AtLarge]

... Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups. This can only happen if our great game becomes more and different than what it is. Right now, it does not compete well.

What are your ideas on how pool can become "more and different than what it is"?

 

[Cameron Smith]

I may be missing something and/or perhaps not overly familiar with details of the laws from various states, but if it is illegal to smoke indoors in any public establishment, which presumably has caused smokers to go elsewhere...where are the smokers going? Home? Does this mean smokers choose not to do anything anymore because they can't smoke inside? Or are there limits to the ban wherein they can smoke at certain bars? Or are they just playing more golf?

Not trying to be smart, just curious.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

I think poolroom owners need to over come one major hurdle, and that is to reinfect the youth of this country with this great game.

We are in the process of building up a small private school here in Oregon.
To ensure our grades program is successful in the future, we are pumping money into our early childhood development program first because they will feed the school and hopefully keep the classrooms full.

The great thing about this school is that I will be proposing a billiard class to be taught and hopefully we will be able to dedicate an area to it in 2 years.
This is the type of school that teaches math to first graders through handwork and other skills through practical exercises. Wish me luck.

No, I don't think it was smoking that killed the pool hall, it was laziness and the blue blinking screen and vidiot games. This school is also anti-electronic media oriented for the younger ones for good reasons.

Bravo to you sir. That's where the future is, getting the youth into pool.


The video game factor may very well be a part of pool's decline. The first question is, when is the typical age where someone gets into pool? I don't think it's too old. Pool is one of those things that is tough to start later in life.

Well, if it's a late teens, early 20's thing - then you trace back to the significant explosion of the video game industry since the late 1990's...perhaps that explains the absence of many young people in pool today? Instead of getting into such a great game, they were busy playing xbox and playstation. Now that they are late 20's or in their 30's...pool isn't as attractive to get into?


I'd have to see some solid demographic data. Is there an under-representation of 18-25 year olds in pool right now? If so, then yes, video games do matter.

I know a couple young guys that play pool, and they divide their time up between pool and online video games. So this effect is definitely there. I'm sure there are many others that are fully dedicated to video games. Video games have overtaken Hollywood in gross sales. That's right, years ago video games have become a bigger industry than the movie industry. Hard to imagine, but it's a fact.


Overall though, that's one segment of the declining pool business. Can't attribute video game playing to the loss of so many 40-50 year old customers.


I can't say that smoking doesn't have an impact, I just don't feel like smoking is as fundamentally critical to pool as they make it out to be. But it doesn't matter what I think. Cigarettes are costing more and more, people are smoking less and less.


If pool depends on smokers, then pool is doomed the same way smoking is. EVOLVE or become EXTINCT.

 

[jalapus logan]

Just a rhetorical question, but who here thinks that golf would go south if smoking were outlawed on the links? Or bowling for that matter? Now that I think about it, the bowling lanes in my town are now smoke free as well. They have no perceptible loss of business either. In fact, they're always packed. Hmmmm.....

 

[Paul Schofield]

Just a rhetorical question, but who here thinks that golf would go south if smoking were outlawed on the links? Or bowling for that matter? Now that I think about it, the bowling lanes in my town are now smoke free as well. They have no perceptible loss of business either. In fact, they're always packed. Hmmmm.....

You have just illustrated my point.

 

[jalapus logan]

You have just illustrated my point.

Admitedly, I just skimmed this thread. However, I do know that pool is a game that can and does stand on its' own merits. That is to say, it's fun to play, about anyone can play, and is inexpensive to play. What's not to like? The game can challenge you on any level that you wish to be challenged.

The only missing link is adequate marketing. That's my opinion anyway.

Cheers all,

JL

 

[Grilled Cheese]

I am no room owner, but I did observe how packed the Silver Cue here in fabulous Lexington has become on league night these days, which is several years after our local smoking ban was enacted. BTW, the Silver Cue fought it by allowing smoking after the ban went into effect, but I think that stiff fines finally got the better of them.

Long story short, I've never seen the place so packed - wall to wall patrons! Like you said, if pool and room owners want to succeed, the demographics with disposable income need to be involved. Why do you want "patrons" with little to no money to spend in the room anyway? Plus, these types just tend to run off the more desirable (read profitable) customers.

As an aside, I enjoy playing in our local rooms more since the smoking ban went into effect. Also, it's been around long enough in our area that no one complains about it either...

The complainers just want to make an excuse for the fact that they cannot adapt, or have a customer base that are dedicated smokers.

My wife will not go to the pool room with me anymore - because of the SMOKE. She spends a lot more money in there than I do, and I spend more when she's with me as drinking, playing, eating and everything else is a group thing. I'm not going to do rounds of shots by myself. But I'll do them with her, her friends, my friends and others.


I'm not the only one like that. Most of the people I know have close friends, family or significant others who won't come with them because of the smoke. It ends up being only those people who love pool so much, they are willing to breathe the toxic smoke and stink like hell when they get home. A lot of people who want to go out, drink, laugh, eat and have a good time - don't love pool so much as to put up with that. And guess what? There's plenty of non-smoking places they can have their fun and not have to put up with that filth.


Thus, the pool room is occupied by smokers and the non-smokers that are willing to put up with it. The non-smokers willing to put up with it aren't that many. Thus, pool rooms appeal to two minority groups. Smokers and non-smokers who suffer the smoke.


And this is good for business?

 

[1pocket]

If you were aware of how our economy works , you would know the "teabaggers" are for LOWER taxes. LOWER taxes mean more TAKE home pay. That means YOU have more to spend.We have teaparty people because our economy has sunk to levels and people know something has to be done to wake our goverment up, before another depression hits.I used to come on AZ to read about Pool not politics.

Then stick to pool -- even the guy you were ranting on here still had a friggin' pool angle -- you don't at all -- hell, you're not even talking about smoking or not, lol

 

[Paul Schofield]

Thus, the pool room is occupied by smokers and the non-smokers that are willing to put up with it. The non-smokers willing to put up with it aren't that many. Thus, pool rooms appeal to two minority groups. Smokers and non-smokers who suffer the smoke.


And this is good for business?

Within our current demographic, there are not enough non-smokers to adequately sustain viable poolrooms.