World 10 Ball Silence

[azhousepro]

I agree with you on most of your points. Not sure about this one though.

We are really a different crowd than the average fan. I would be willing to bet that the average pool fan has no idea that there was any controversy over the WTBC or the US Open.

They just don't care enough.

Mike

You know why people in general watch Tennis and Golf and follow the stars somewhat? Because the events are consistent, the participants are consistently there, the rules are the same, and there is no drama to take away from the sport part of the competition.

 

[monski]

Matchroom typically pays the players 1-2 weeks after the event is complete. And they put on what are arguably the best produced and most professional events in the game today.

Even they can not have all of the guaranteed prize money in place before balls are struck.

Mike

---------------------
That's good enough for me (as a fan) then. If players accept that from Matchroom, then it should be alright.

I'm just glad the players and all are getting paid.

You gotta give some form of credit since there was little time to prep for the WTB and there was a lot of controversy also. Given that context, I can somehow tolerate foul ups. If they still want to do this next year, they have more time now and more will be expected of them. Maybe they can even use the escrow concept (or other things suggested here) for the next tournament.

 

[Str8PoolMan]

Part of the Problem...

Bob, can't agree with you on that one.

Barry was short in 01 and the players swarmed back to the tourney the following year.

Sixteen pro players rushed back to the IPT for this new venture after the debacle that they had. (In fairness, Sigel and Ellerby have pulled out and Hatch/Loree Jon took their places)

If the UPA were to announce another event, I suspect the players would rush to it.

And I imagine even after all of the worries over World Ten Ball, they will have a full field next year.

There is just not enough money in the pool world for players to turn down the chance of a payday.

Mike

It's this kind of desperate attitude that makes pool players easy prey for every no-account, sleazeball, hustler and con-man out there.

Why should anyone respect professional pool players when they don't show any respect for themselves?

 

[thefifteen]

Assuming that all payments have been made now, you have to look back at the tournament and say well done to the promoters. They have again arranged a big tournament with a substantial prize fund successfully.

All the players were aware, or certainly the one i sponsor was, that payments would be by wire transfer two weeks after the tournament. Yes they were a week or ten days late and could have communicated this better, but that is the only fault.

Maybe they are just sick to death of all the slating they have been getting, and attemps to derail the tournament, that have made their lives more difficult.

Well done!

 

[Fatboy]

Jay,

When it comes to $25-40,000 added events I can agree with you that it is reasonable to believe a promoter can get all of that upfront and post it. But when you are doing a really big tourney with $100,000, $200,000 or more added I believe the odds go way down. Big sponsors, particularly governments, are not particularly impressed with when you demand the money. They will cut the check in a reasonable time and if that is not OK you may be advised to go elsewhere. I know for certain that the promoter of the largest event on US soil has told player organizations that posting the prize fund beforehand is simply not possible.

-Jerry

When I do something, and I will all in due time, ALL monies will be posted(no matter how much-its only $$ for a specific purpose) before anyone gets on a airplane to come to the event. I'm going to use open book accounting(visable to all who are involved with the production,managment and marketing) of the event. There is no reason to keep the $$$ a secret as its going to be dispersed anyways.

my best to you Jerry. Pleasure to see you last week, sorry I didnt see you after dinner that nite as I didnt go to the tournment the following days. I was at the poolroom and then came back to Vegas. Cheers.

 

[watchez]

Again, I will ask did Jerry Forsyth get paid up front or also wait two weeks like the players to get paid? Forgive me if I am wrong in what I was told that he had a financial interest in this event.

No tournament should happen without the money already being in existence ready to PAY THE PLAYERS. PERIOD. The players have suffered and been through too much for too long. If a tournament director or promoter doesn't have the cash flow to pay the players, then do not have a tournament at all. All you are asking for is disaster. IPT. Arizona. Both ended in disaster. This event was saved. I don't care for the 33% chance of getting things right in recent times.

 

[Renegade]

Was Pulpul paid?

 

[memikey]

...Let's see how far a promoter gets producing a professional tennis or golf tournament, and tells the players he will pay them within a few weeks. That would be his last event.

Not sure what "level" of pro of tennis/golf event you had in mind when gaining the perception of payment arrangements which you apparently hold Jay, but can offer the following info.......

Not familiar with professional tennis payment arrangements nor do I know anything about the practices of any promoters/organisers of any small pro golf "mini-tours" in the USA. However I am absolutely certain that the US PGA, European PGA, The EuroProTour, The Asian Tour and The Sunshine Tour (South Africa) do not pay the players immediately after the tournament and that weeks can be involved.

Although the calculations necessary to compute what each player has 'won' are made immediately the tournament ends and although the amount concerned is also immediately credited to the players' tallies on the relevant orders of merit, the actual cheque deliveries or bank transfers are usually completed within two/three weeks or so.

 

[gopi-1]

Just so sick and tired of reading about this type of stuff. It is really quite annoying.

Pool player ponies up the money, goes and plays, and gets shafted.

Promoters or organizations don't pay.

Nothing gets done.
Why does this continue to happen?


Just get a bunch of baseball bats and pistols, go beat the daylights out of offending parties or shoot them dead.

WRITE OFF THE MONEY, and never have to deal with these scumbags again.

Let it be a message to every potential scumbag of what will happen if you try to exploit the players.

I really don't care about the laws that are in place. Sometimes someone needs to get the $#!T kicked out of them and put in a hospital, or someone needs to die for people to understand that what they are doing is WRONG!

It's that simple.

Go find the people that owe, torture them appropriately, and VOILA.
No more issues involving players getting shafted.

Let me tell you something.

Back in the day, if i was a pro player and Mackey ripped ME off and ruined it for the entire pool playing community, Mackey would be on his dining room table, dead, with a bullet hole through his heart, and apple in his mouth, on a huge silver platter for his whole family to see.

F THAT BULL$#!T

Hire a hit man, hire a posse, go out and off them personally, i don't care.
Someone needs to get the job done.
This has gone on long enough.

Pool players need to stop letting the promoters and organizations constantly bend them over and give them the business.
If that means shooting them in the face, or beating the crap out of them in front of their families with baseball bats, then so be it.

If nothing ever gets done, it's gonna seem like pool players LIKE getting bent over and destroyed.

You're as soft as a marshmallow SUPERSTAR, I expected something more drastic and violent from you!

 

[SUPERSTAR]

You're as soft as a marshmallow SUPERSTAR, I expected something more drastic and violent from you!

Maybe we should go find the promoters, buy them dinner and pop the cork on some bubbly for putting together the event so that some pool fans could see some great matches.

Heck with the players, maybe the players should apologize for expecting the money to be a done deal. SHAME ON THEM. We have faith that they will aways get paid, so lets just celebrate the event for now.

DRUNKEN KARAOKE WITH THE PROMOTERS LATER ON!!!

LOADS OF FUN.

 

[pro9dg]

Matchroom typically pays the players 1-2 weeks after the event is complete. And they put on what are arguably the best produced and most professional events in the game today.

Even they can not have all of the guaranteed prize money in place before balls are struck.

Mike

That is not strictly accurate. The vast majority of the players are paid cash (US dollars) before they leave the venue. The players filling the final few places are paid through their bank possibly up to a week later.

But the prize fund is guaranteed because if there is any shortfall from sponsors then Matchroom will provide the money themselves.

On at least one past occasion they have done this. When a prominent double glazing company went out of business just before a tournament
the advertised prize fund came from the Matchroom coffers.

The WTBC money seems to have come through as promised but the Bar Has Been Lowered in terms of prestige for the games flagship events and who is going to raise it again.

 

[jay helfert]

Bottom line is that there is, and will be, a risk involved in promoting a professional pool tournament. If it was risk free, then everyone would be doing it. In that way it is like any other business or new venture. If you know what you're doing and cover your bases you have a chance to be successful. And if not, you go out of business, and lose money. But even if you close up shop, you are still obligated to pay your employees.

The reality is that there is a perception of pool tournaments being flawed and for good reason. There is a long history of non payments, late payments, and short payments. Players enter many tournaments at their own risk, as do their backers. Especially when an unknown entity is putting up the money. In the case of the recent WTBC, the promoter had two big events under his belt, so his track record was fine. The difference this time was that the event was not held under the auspices (and partnership) of Matchroom. A key element was missing to ensure prompt payment of prize monies.

As it turned out, he had to scramble to make the necessary payments, and they may not all be paid as of this writing. How this will affect future events I don't know. But a guarantee should be put in place next time. Otherwise all these questions will arise again. I think the lack of communication the last few weeks was a big mistake on the part of the promoter. If he had been upfront about the delays in making payment, it would have alleviated a lot of the uneasiness that was brewing.

Because of this well deserved perception of pool tournaments and their promoters, it is paramount that they go to extra lengths to insure that every participant knows where the money is coming from and how they will be paid. In the old Hard Times events, which sometimes had purses in excess of $30,000, we made it crystal clear that all prize money would be paid in cash immediately after a player is eliminated. The players appreciated this and came in droves. A little honesty goes a long way!

 

[JB Cases]

I agree with you on most of your points. Not sure about this one though.

We are really a different crowd than the average fan. I would be willing to bet that the average pool fan has no idea that there was any controversy over the WTBC or the US Open.

They just don't care enough.

Mike

What I really meant is that these sports, Tennis and Golf are so consistent in their presentation that they can have fans who can follow the tournaments, cheer on their favorite players, and then get back to life without any thought as to rules, sanctions, payouts, and such.

I'd say that you are right that the average pool fan doesn't know about tournament controversies. I'd like to think that the AZ forum folks are above average fans. But I disagree that they don't know because they don't care. They don't know because pool as a sport is so fragmented and haphazardly presented that it's hard to catch up on who won what and where in what game never mind all the attendant drama.

I don't play Tennis. Admittedly since I have been in China and hardly watch television I don't really follow it. I have in the past made it a point to watch Tennis and keep up with the stars in a general way. The advertisers who sponsor tennis are getting their money's worth with casual fans like me. Tennis can attract these sponsors because Tennis can put a quality product on the air in a consistent manner. Tennis dictates to the promoters what they can and can't do. Well at least I like to imagine that Tennis does this. The reality is probably that each event is a negotiation but I have to think that the players are well represented.

That's my point. I can be a fan of tennis without caring about the welfare of the players. They have it under control.

Pool is presented in so many ways that there is no way the casual fan can begin to get a grip on what "the game" really is. No way that they can follow the stars. The WPBA however is closest to it.

We went out to places with Kelly Fisher and she was recognized and asked for her autograph. I am sure this happens to Allison in far greater instances. Why is this? Because the fans are treated to consistency. They have players that they have become familiar with through constant presentation and someone to cheer for.

Pool as a whole though will never grow until it has a consistent product to present. And in my opinion that start with the players having collective ownership of the product which is their skill.

 

[Johnnyt]

I can't believe some on here clapping their hands because a few got paid 3-4 weeks after the fact. I think another thing needs to be put on tournament flyers...WHEN DO THE PLAYERS GET PAID?

I must be getting old because I always paid for services rendered right after they were given. And I expected the same in return. I guess now a days it's catch me if you can to get paid. A guy wouldn't last too long in business or in life in my day acting like that. Doing business involves risks most of the time. There is only one reason promoters don't want to post purse money...they don't have it. If they don't have it they shouldn't be allowed to gamble with the lives of 64 or more players every time they roll the dice to put on another tournament. Wake up players. Johnnyt

 

[Jerry Forsyth]

Not that it is any of your business...

Again, I will ask did Jerry Forsyth get paid up front or also wait two weeks like the players to get paid? Forgive me if I am wrong in what I was told that he had a financial interest in this event.

No, I was not paid up front. Yes. I waited for my wire. The only 'financial interest' I had in the event was my salary as TV commentator and news bureau.

Now, Watchez, can I stick my nose in your business? Who are you? What is your real name and what is your connection to pool in the Philippines? You seem to believe that all questions poised here should be answered, so have at it.

If I seem a little peeved, I am. You and a small handful of others tried to destroy this event from the get-go. First you said it would never happen. It did. Then you said the players would not get paid. They did. Even now, after you have been proven wrong on every point, you continue to try and stir stuff up that is either petty or inaccurate.

I am tired of the political gamesmanship. I am tired of events being announced that never materialize. Especially when that runs the risk of costing the players the payday they deserved to have in the WPC that was announced for Manila and now may not occur. All of this hurts the players, the fans and the game itself.

Stop swimming against the current. If you do not like the way that the WPA is doing things then stop throwing stones from outside. Get on the damn boat and help with the work on the rudder. The WPA is like any other organization, it is there to promote the cause and the interests of its members. It can be changed from within by a simple vote. But you cannot help the parade of the sport by standing on the curb and tossing out barbs under the tires.

This game is in a crucial spot. We need everyone pushing in the same direction, not sparring on the sidelines. Stop the squabbles, join forces with the rest of the world, and help move the game forward. The game should not be held captive to the interests of any one small group. It should democratically evolve and move as one tide across the future sea.

 

[Nostroke]

If I seem a little peeved, I am. You and a small handful of others tried to destroy this event from the get-go. First you said it would never happen. It did. Then you said the players would not get paid. They did. Even now, after you have been proven wrong on every point, you continue to try and stir stuff up that is either petty or inaccurate.

I am tired of the political gamesmanship. I am tired of events being announced that never materialize. Especially when that runs the risk of costing the players the payday they deserved to have in the WPC that was announced for Manila and now may not occur. All of this hurts the players, the fans and the game itself.

I hear ya but with all the rumors before the event, the organizers should have taken every step to allay all fears, the most important being immediate payment. They surely are smart enough to know that but they couldnt pull it off.

Maybe Im wrong but that tells me the event was on shaky ground from the start and without the naysayers letting everyone know the World was watching, things could have turned out worse.JMHO

 

[arian dacongan]

No, I was not paid up front. Yes. I waited for my wire. The only 'financial interest' I had in the event was my salary as TV commentator and news bureau.

Now, Watchez, can I stick my nose in your business? Who are you? What is your real name and what is your connection to pool in the Philippines? You seem to believe that all questions poised here should be answered, so have at it.

If I seem a little peeved, I am. You and a small handful of others tried to destroy this event from the get-go. First you said it would never happen. It did. Then you said the players would not get paid. They did. Even now, after you have been proven wrong on every point, you continue to try and stir stuff up that is either petty or inaccurate.

I am tired of the political gamesmanship. I am tired of events being announced that never materialize. Especially when that runs the risk of costing the players the payday they deserved to have in the WPC that was announced for Manila and now may not occur. All of this hurts the players, the fans and the game itself.

Stop swimming against the current. If you do not like the way that the WPA is doing things then stop throwing stones from outside. Get on the damn boat and help with the work on the rudder. The WPA is like any other organization, it is there to promote the cause and the interests of its members. It can be changed from within by a simple vote. But you cannot help the parade of the sport by standing on the curb and tossing out barbs under the tires.

This game is in a crucial spot. We need everyone pushing in the same direction, not sparring on the sidelines. Stop the squabbles, join forces with the rest of the world, and help move the game forward. The game should not be held captive to the interests of any one small group. It should democratically evolve and move as one tide across the future sea.

it's easy for you to say join forces with 'whoever' you are refferring to here if one has a vested interest -however small that is in this case.. yen and co is not the rest of the world..frankly speaking..this is not politics at all--these players that have boycotted the wtb are not after politics..and

frankly speaking- i lost my respect for you when you sided with a person like yen whos is self serving and has no integrity and wants to dictate and dominate players that he had no drop of sweat invested in them..you know that..(but who cares if i lost my respect for you right- i hope i'm the only one)

you are right that pool needs to be pushed towards the right direction but not by people who have no integrity and have devious - intention/ambitions- i'm reffering to yen and co.

if i am your stature..i will never deal with people like yen and co.--but that's just me...

like i mentioned before..its a shame while many filipinos are hungry and in deep poverty..the taxpayers money has to save the face of the country because some egomaniac and mal-intended yen and co. arrogantly put the country at that position by pushing through with wtb just to display their arrogance..and the results is --nobody watched .. it was a crying shame

jerry..mark my words..this payments is not to be credited to yen but to poor philippines coffer ..poor peoples money used here to save him

also ..i am really peeved by you when in your defense of your friends at bscp/raya..you keep on saying many tried to stop wtb from happening.. who and how...

..if you are reffering to this puny forum here ,as our little ways to voice out indignation towards what yen trying to accomplish as a "pure" fan of the game ...then you are so really into 'them" and blind of rational and truth...

i . for one have no ax to grind here... if the palyers are wrong in this instance, i will be the first one to voice disgust..but clearly the players are trying to prevent this guy yen from dominating and dictating pool anyway he wants it...

 

[watchez]

No, I was not paid up front. Yes. I waited for my wire. The only 'financial interest' I had in the event was my salary as TV commentator and news bureau.

Now, Watchez, can I stick my nose in your business? Who are you? What is your real name and what is your connection to pool in the Philippines? You seem to believe that all questions poised here should be answered, so have at it.

If I seem a little peeved, I am. You and a small handful of others tried to destroy this event from the get-go. First you said it would never happen. It did. Then you said the players would not get paid. They did. Even now, after you have been proven wrong on every point, you continue to try and stir stuff up that is either petty or inaccurate.

I am tired of the political gamesmanship. I am tired of events being announced that never materialize. Especially when that runs the risk of costing the players the payday they deserved to have in the WPC that was announced for Manila and now may not occur. All of this hurts the players, the fans and the game itself.

Stop swimming against the current. If you do not like the way that the WPA is doing things then stop throwing stones from outside. Get on the damn boat and help with the work on the rudder. The WPA is like any other organization, it is there to promote the cause and the interests of its members. It can be changed from within by a simple vote. But you cannot help the parade of the sport by standing on the curb and tossing out barbs under the tires.

This game is in a crucial spot. We need everyone pushing in the same direction, not sparring on the sidelines. Stop the squabbles, join forces with the rest of the world, and help move the game forward. The game should not be held captive to the interests of any one small group. It should democratically evolve and move as one tide across the future sea.

I was wanting to know because your opinion could be tainted if you had a financial interest in the event. Your opinion of what happened and the delay in payment is weighted by this.

Please show me the post where I said this event would not happen. Where did I try to destroy this event from the get go? Where did that comment happen? Please do not put words in my mouth - ever. And you are the news bureau. That is scarey. See, I asked a question first - you are making accusations of me that are completely false.

My name is - I have posted it here many times. What other information would you like? I will be happy to provide it.

My opinion is based on what has happened in the pool world the past 3 years. Too many times players have not been paid or had to settle for less. Now is not the time for anyone to leap before they look.

I agree 100% with Jay - if pool tournaments were full proof, everyone would do them. There is a risk and they need to be held by people with the pockets to withstand the risk.

Did Mark Griffin delay payment last year when the Qlympics had a poor turnout? No - and he made no excuses.

 

[monski]

What I see is:

Did the WTB push through? Yes

Did Controversy plague the tournament? Yes

Payments were delayed? Yes

Payments are being addressed? Seems so

 

[sputnik]

If I seem a little peeved, I am. You and a small handful of others tried to destroy this event from the get-go. First you said it would never happen. It did. Then you said the players would not get paid. They did. Even now, after you have been proven wrong on every point, you continue to try and stir stuff up that is either petty or inaccurate.

I am tired of the political gamesmanship. I am tired of events being announced that never materialize. Especially when that runs the risk of costing the players the payday they deserved to have in the WPC that was announced for Manila and now may not occur. All of this hurts the players, the fans and the game itself.

Stop swimming against the current. If you do not like the way that the WPA is doing things then stop throwing stones from outside. Get on the damn boat and help with the work on the rudder. The WPA is like any other organization, it is there to promote the cause and the interests of its members. It can be changed from within by a simple vote. But you cannot help the parade of the sport by standing on the curb and tossing out barbs under the tires.

This game is in a crucial spot. We need everyone pushing in the same direction, not sparring on the sidelines. Stop the squabbles, join forces with the rest of the world, and help move the game forward. The game should not be held captive to the interests of any one small group. It should democratically evolve and move as one tide across the future sea.

So you want us to believe that how you were exaggerating the success of WTB on TV is true? You want us to believe that the way Raya prepared for the WTB did not merit alarm? You want us to believe that it is okay to stress everybody by not informing anyone of the payment until 3 days before paying very late?

Okay, the preparations for the WTB were perfect, from the tables, to the crowd, to the 3-camera TV technical coverage, to the congregation of players, to the refs, to the sponsors, to the commentating to the paying. Perfect! Raya is not swimming against the current. Is that huge and accurate enough?

Just one thing... getting paid in doing your talking job is more like standing on the curb tossing barbs under the tire in front of millions of viewers. Even if talk is being paid for, the talk that tried to cover up with superlatives for a substandard WTB was very cheap. Get on the damn boat and help with the work on the rudder. Not everyone should push the same direction that you and Yen Makabenta want the sport to go to.

I'm sorry Jerry. It's just that we have opposite perspectives on this. I'm peeved too.