World Ten Ball - Will the show go on? Will it be cancelled?

[fanthom]

Can someone help me with this question i have in my head.

Irregardless of which party is involved in what in the Philippines.

I would like to know Just one thing.

Is this years World 9 ball and World 10 ball championship screwed up because of Philippines? Is there a straight forward answer to that?

It is called a world championship for the reason that the REST of the world is involve in it too. Why should it get screwed up because of internal squabbles.

If the rest of the world should have to suffer because of this then no tournament should ever be allowed to be organize by or held in the Philippines ever!

BINGO!!! This sums it all up. For starters, the Philippine Govt should've stepped-up on this issue very early on and come-up with an amicable resolution. But since the 'buddy-system' is above and beyond the law of the land, the isssue became a stalemate being desperately resuscitated by its organizer, RAYA. Clearly, I see no winners or victors here but only victims, first Pool, second, the players, third, the fans. This is a very accurate illustration of Philippine politics. Nothing moves until somebody dies of natural causes or forcedlly eliminated. To the Philippine side, I suggest save yourselves the embarassment and cancel the event. It does not look good and will only get uglier. To the rest of the world especially the players, save yourselves the disappointment and frustration. Cancel your travel plans if you still haven't done so and demand your entry fee refund . Better to pay a canellation fee vs. travellng for hundreds even thousand of miles for nothing. The symptoms are obvious and one need not look far - no proof of guaranteed price fund in escrow, an almost silent event advertising, no clear sponsors. Let the Philippine govt know that incompetence and foot-dragging have no reward. This is definitely a very sad time for pool. It's such a beautiful game yet unfortunately plagued by many evils, evils that are outside the realms of pool. :sorry:

 

[azhousepro]

Why is the question whether they eventually paid? You are not giving Raya a chance to "eventually pay". You are requiring that you be shown the money in escrow before the players hit a ball.

It is my belief that no other promoter has had this requirement placed on them by you and it is also my belief that no other country is requiring this of Raya.

Mike

Mike, the BMPAP was only formed and announced last Feb 2008. When were these events that you mention happen? Did players eventually get paid by this somebody who had no history of promoting an event like the Desert Shoot Out? Did KT not pay, even at 11% per installment, and show in good faith that he'll settle the prize money owed? The one we know didn't pay players, who participated in his private production, the 3k per episode he promised for food and travel allowance.

 

[azhousepro]

You are absolutely correct. I am certainly not trying to intervene in this matter. Simply trying to debate the facts with Bandido, who I have the utmost respect for.

I do think that this whole dispute will not be settled until both sides agree that they are stronger together than apart.

But that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Mike

Mike....some good sense as usual....however, a general comment if I may....

I'm sure that all of you in USA are familiar with the usual sound strategy of never intervening to try and stop two brothers/cousins/"family" members fighting or even trying to advise them of the respective apparent rights and wrongs within either or both of their sides of the argument, as it will, almost without fail, end up with both of them punching you.....and I'm sure that holds good in USA.

Apart from my own experience of things like trying to separate brothers swinging punches at each other outside a pool room or bar I have spent a significant proportion of my business life in independent international investigation, arbitration and resolution of circumstances where commercial competition or disagreements have led to legal disputes etc. In my experience you can multiply the intensity of this "stop fighting only long enough to punch the interfering outsider" factor by at least 3 times the intensity when it appertains to Middle East individuals and perhaps by 4 or 5 times when it comes to Far East individuals. Edwin et al, this isn't a criticism or any kind of veiled racism, just a simple fact of life

It's long odds-on Mike that nothing you or anyone else outside The Phillipines thinks, says or does is ever going to have the slightest effect in real terms towards these warring parties sorting out their differences.

They will get on with this war in their own way. Both parties are certainly in a much better position than anyone outside The Phillipines to know how far they are prepared to go. Mark my words, no matter what anyone says in these forums this situation appears to have not a snowballs chance in hell of being resolved until these two parties sit down together with a fresh and more open approach. They will get round to doing that one way or the other.

Until that happens it is of course quite possible, some might say inevitable, that some players of various nationalities may suffer at least a bit of personal inconvenience and at worst some significant personal financial losses. The game/sport itself doesn't have that much to lose in the first place, so whilst certainly taking that risk into consideration, I wouldn't dramatically over-emphasise that aspect.

I hope some common sense will eventually prevail

 

[azhousepro]

Isn't that kind of a "one sided" demand to make when you are trying to negotiate for the betterment of all players and pool in the Philippines?

Either Yen steps down, or you there is no deal?

Would Putch or Perry have been willing to make the same sacrifice for the sake of the players and stepped down from something that they have worked to build for multiple years?

Mike

Mike(s), it's not that there is nothing being done to rectify the situation here. As late as last week, the two sides sat down. BSCP/Raya wanted the players to join their tournaments (if they had the prize money, they wouldn't give a hoot about BMPAP players joining) but BMPAP merely wanted Yen to step down from BSCP and tend to the interests of Raya, which incidentally owns WTBC (courtesy of WPA accreditation compliments of BSCP). Yen could have taken it for the sake of Raya and WTBC. Give and take, but nothing came out of it. That is how much WPA accreditation means to Raya. Raya has BSCP's accreditations and BMPAP has the players. Raya needs sponsors and BMPAP needs fairness. Now how do you measure that?

 

[azhousepro]

What pool players in the world would have even the beginning of an understanding as to how to get copies of GAB permits and/or sponsor contracts?

I ran a tour here in Arizona. While it was MUCH smaller than the events that we are discussing, the first time a player came to me and asked for a copy of a contract I had with a sponsor would have been quickly followed by me laughing and moving on to the next question.

I too have many players calling me and asking what I know about the situation. I am not telling any of them to get GAB permits or copies of contracts. That is not what a pool players wants to hear. It is not the job of a pool player to do something like this. Pool players have associations who look out for them and they should be looking to their associations to answer these questions for them. The reason they are calling me (and Jerry Forsyth) is because we are assisting the BCA in communicating with the players.

I am telling the players the same thing I am saying here. I have heard the rumors and I still have an airplane ticket.

Mike

When foreign players contact us asking about WTBC, we can only advise them to get a copy of GAB permits and sponsor contracts. Many have called from the USA and Europe and that's all we can say. No way will we tell them otherwise from what we know is happening here. If this is taken against us, then Raya should keep their lines open or at least say something in the Internet. These poor guys don't know what to do with their bookings. And some have purchased plane tickets.

 

[azhousepro]

Yes, I would certainly think that Raya could have additional problems lining up sponsors in the Philippines if the top Filipino players do not compete. You certainly do have a point there, and I agree with it.

Sponsors make prize money possible. They do not make an event successful, unless they don't exist. As long as the money is there, I don't think the majority of the players care which sponsor is providing it. All they care about is that the money is there.

As for press releases, anyone can put one out and they can say anything. This is why we had to make a decision to vet certain press releases and verify their accuracy before running them.

I believe the reference to the 06 and 07 WPC's was a reference to Raya not having a blueprint for their 08 event. Should Raya have had a blueprint for a World Championship without Filipino players?

Mike

Sorry to butt in Mike, but from what I have digest so far is, if the top Filipino players aren't there. the local sponsors ( prize money) wouldn't touch this event with a ten foot pole.




When it comes to the press, Raya/Yen is second to none. If there's smoke, there's fire I guess...



The 06 and the 07 events were all the "TOP" Filipino pool players participated? ... "and they say that the players are not bigger than the game." From the looks of what's happening now in the Philippines, this could prove the above quote is just a myth...

 

[sputnik]

To the Philippine side, I suggest save yourselves the embarassment and cancel the event. It does not look good and will only get uglier. To the rest of the world especially the players, save yourselves the disappointment and frustration. Cancel your travel plans if you still haven't done so and demand your entry fee refund . Better to pay a canellation fee vs. travellng for hundreds even thousand of miles for nothing. The symptoms are obvious and one need not look far - no proof of guaranteed price fund in escrow, an almost silent event advertising, no clear sponsors.

If at this point, they see nothing to fund the WTBC, they will not publish reports of Marlon looking forward to win the WTBC if they had nothing in mind. They must have a plan to change the venue or to change the prize money amount.

What might probably happen will be a "Winner Take All" tournament where the fee of $400 each will be used to pay the prize money. This kind of silence hints that they are hoping that the players will come to fund the prize money with their tournament fees.

This last report "Marlon Manalo Eyeing World Ten Ball Crown After Winning National Pool" posted in AZ by their writer Marlon Bernardino about Manalo looking forward to WTBC is directed to foreign readers to lure in participants. But it is strange that no prize money nor venue was mentioned in the report. Also strange is the absence of this report in the local papers. It appeared in a few tabloids unlike their media exposure in the past.

So I think they have funding if things go right. $400 x 100 participants =$40,000. It is not illegal but it is better than aborting a tournament. It seems that this is coming a trend and the players will simply have to bear with it if they want tournaments. But what if only a few players enlist on-site?

Mike, FYI, there was a recent directive by Government for GAB to work closely with the Bureau of Immigrations for foreigners to secure a work permit to join any tournament held here. (http://sports.inquirer.net/inquirer.../GAB-endorsement-needed-to-get-BI-work-permit) It came out in all the dailies last month. I do not know if BSCP is on the bad side of GAB for a swift processing, but they should be able to do it in one hour. Indeed it is not the job of a pool player to get GAB permits. It is the responsibility of the organizer to inform the participants of this directive and facilitate the work permits for their participants.

I agree with you, Mike, that it will be ridiculous if players come up to you to ask for sponsorship contracts. Your name simply precedes your tournaments.

 

[sputnik]

Isn't that kind of a "one sided" demand to make when you are trying to negotiate for the betterment of all players and pool in the Philippines?

Either Yen steps down, or you there is no deal?

Would Putch or Perry have been willing to make the same sacrifice for the sake of the players and stepped down from something that they have worked to build for multiple years?

Mike

Mike, you have to understand that there are strong undercurrents in this issue and this is why there is mathematics on one side and principles on the other. It is not a one-sided deal. Explaining this will have to go back to the can of worms again.

There was a petition signed by all BMPAP players for Yen to step down from BSCP. Yen has a pending law suit filed by Alex Pagulayan for abuse of power in BSCP accreditations (for taking Alex out of the Guinness Tour for sharking). He also has a request for investigation in the Ombudsman to look at possible corruption charges when he received money that was alledgedly earmarked for Philippine Sports and was diverted to Raya Sports.

It is not one-sided. The players and the whole Philippine pool industry are affected by Makabenta. You have to understand that Makabenta is not liked here in Manila. If you will say that he is not liked only by BMPAP, please take a look at the officers and members of BMPAP. BMPAP is Philippine Pool without the fancy accreditations. He has no players except for De Luna, Manalo and Gabica (some individuals are trying broker their joining the BMPAP) who keep on dominating their tournaments. Now with this WTBC, it is the country's reputation that it on the line.

What is so one-sided with Makabenta getting out of BSCP and sticking it out with Raya Sports? However he justifies and rationalizes things, there is conflict of interest in his being Chair of BSCP and President of Raya. We feel the consequences while he enjoys the power of accreditation in making the Raya-BMPAP business playing field favor his way of doing business.

Think about it... would it not be more profitable for the BMPAP to let their players join and win in Makabenta's tournament? The player gets his prize money and the manager gets his cut.

Money is not the issue here. What Edwin said is true - no one among the BMPAP officials has earned in this fight that we are doing with the players against BSCP.

It is hard to quantify principles, and that is one thing that Makabenta finds difficult to identify in solving this whole issue. Makabenta does not have the balls to step down from BSCP and expose Raya to a fair playing field without using WPA accreditation.

This attitude of BMPAP has to worry WPA because evidently, there is pool development without WPA accreditation. But yes, as Edwin Reyes had always mentioned, BMPAP is willing to cooperate with WPA and BSCP without a Yen Makabenta.

 

[azhousepro]

The majority of this message is making guesses based on one article.

How do you take an article saying that Marlon won the Philippine National Championship and hopes he wins the 10-ball event and make that out to be saying that Raya will cut the prize money to $40,000-winner take all?

This is not an open tournament where promoters are counting on players to sign up at the event to fill it up. This is a World Championship that almost has a full field. Qualifiers will be held to fill any open spots prior to the start of the event.

What is ridiculous about the idea of players asking a promoter for contracts is that it is not the players place to ask for that. It might be the player's place to ask their federation about the funding and the federation to ask the governing body about the funding.

So, no. The players should not be asking Raya for copies of contracts. They should be asking their federations and their federations should be asking the WPA. If the WPA is sanctioning the event, and the federations feel confident enough to send their players, then that should be enough.

Believe me, if Raya doesn't have the money to run this event and the players don't get paid then this will not just be a black eye on Raya. It will be a black eye for the Filipino Pool World, the WPA, all of it's member organizations and the entire professional men's billiard scene.

I would suspect that it would be an eye black enough that it could take years for the game to recover.

Mike

If at this point, they see nothing to fund the WTBC, they will not publish reports of Marlon looking forward to win the WTBC if they had nothing in mind. They must have a plan to change the venue or to change the prize money amount.

What might probably happen will be a "Winner Take All" tournament where the fee of $400 each will be used to pay the prize money. This kind of silence hints that they are hoping that the players will come to fund the prize money with their tournament fees.

This last report "Marlon Manalo Eyeing World Ten Ball Crown After Winning National Pool" posted in AZ by their writer Marlon Bernardino about Manalo looking forward to WTBC is directed to foreign readers to lure in participants. But it is strange that no prize money nor venue was mentioned in the report. Also strange is the absence of this report in the local papers. It appeared in a few tabloids unlike their media exposure in the past.

So I think they have funding if things go right. $400 x 100 participants =$40,000. It is not illegal but it is better than aborting a tournament. It seems that this is coming a trend and the players will simply have to bear with it if they want tournaments. But what if only a few players enlist on-site?

Mike, FYI, there was a recent directive by Government for GAB to work closely with the Bureau of Immigrations for foreigners to secure a work permit to join any tournament held here. (http://sports.inquirer.net/inquirer.../GAB-endorsement-needed-to-get-BI-work-permit) It came out in all the dailies last month. I do not know if BSCP is on the bad side of GAB for a swift processing, but they should be able to do it in one hour. Indeed it is not the job of a pool player to get GAB permits. It is the responsibility of the organizer to inform the participants of this directive and facilitate the work permits for their participants.

I agree with you, Mike, that it will be ridiculous if players come up to you to ask for sponsorship contracts. Your name simply precedes your tournaments.

 

[jay helfert]

The WPA and Yen

I had hoped to work at this event as a TV commentator, as I had the last two times I traveled to the PI for the WPC. My co-commentators over there both put in a good word for me, and conveyed that my analysis of the matches was helpful to them and a big plus for the commentary team.

Lo and behold a little birdy tells me that Ian Anderson and the WPA got involved in my selection as a commentator. Seems they didn't like some of the criticism I have directed at them. They had "issues" with me. Yen was "informed" that I should not be a member of the commentating team at the WTBC. Appears that part of the "sanction" process also gives the WPA license to chose who they want to talk on the air.

I have since e-mailed Yen for clarification and have not gotten a reply. The silence is deafening! Maybe Ian would like to let me know when he got involved in the selection process for television commentators. I didn't know the WPA was part of the TV production team. You learn something new every day.

I guess they prefer to have plain vanilla commentators who will only offer glowing praise for everyone and everything involved in this event. Sorry Ian, if you want plain vanilla, I'm not your guy. I have and will call it like I see it. If I see injustice or inequities in the pool world, I WILL say something, either through my writing or my speaking. If the playing field isn't level or the rules are getting bent, I'm going to speak up. And if the WPA gets a little to big for their britches, they can get taken down a notch too.

No one owns me Ian, and no one will put words in my mouth. Go on collecting your "sanction" fees and doing your "small man playing the big shot" routine that you do so well. I see who you are clearly now and it isn't pretty. In the states, we would call you a "backstabber". And Yen, whatever respect I had for you, by allowing the WPA to dictate to you, is eroding fast.

Maybe Edwin has a legitimate cripe after all.

 

[sputnik]

The majority of this message is making guesses based on one article.

How do you take an article saying that Marlon won the Philippine National Championship and hopes he wins the 10-ball event and make that out to be saying that Raya will cut the prize money to $40,000-winner take all?

This is not an open tournament where promoters are counting on players to sign up at the event to fill it up. This is a World Championship that almost has a full field. Qualifiers will be held to fill any open spots prior to the start of the event.

What is ridiculous about the idea of players asking a promoter for contracts is that it is not the players place to ask for that. It might be the player's place to ask their federation about the funding and the federation to ask the governing body about the funding.

So, no. The players should not be asking Raya for copies of contracts. They should be asking their federations and their federations should be asking the WPA. If the WPA is sanctioning the event, and the federations feel confident enough to send their players, then that should be enough.

Believe me, if Raya doesn't have the money to run this event and the players don't get paid then this will not just be a black eye on Raya. It will be a black eye for the Filipino Pool World, the WPA, all of it's member organizations and the entire professional men's billiard scene.

I would suspect that it would be an eye black enough that it could take years for the game to recover.

Mike

Mike, I would like to make it clear that we are here posting about this issue so as to disown that potential black eye. We know we will be affected somehow, but this is a preventive measure. And I disagree that it will take years for the game to recover with all the new organizers popping up from different countries.

Perhaps I am not the one who is taking things out of context. My mentioning the article is merely an incorporation of all the symptoms coming out in the open and interpreting it. As long as we all are being held out in the dark, analysis will be more active.

Let's face it. By now, they would have at least posted or come up with an official statement in your homepage in reaction to the discussions in this forum.

In the absence of an announcement from them, all we can do is to read the situation. You are reading it as I am reading it, and the difference in how we read it only makes this a better forum.

Cheers!

Martin aka sputnik

 

[Fatboy]

wow this is getting too complicated,

simple question:


Is the event gonna happen or not??????????????

 

[bandido]

smoke and mirrors?

BSCP/RAYA, WPA and whoever handles the qualifiers in the United States (BCA?) and Europe (EPBF?) sure make it SEEM that the WPA W10BC is pushing through with their measly press releases about Qualifiers and announcement of players headed for the Philippines. MY read here is that they are still trying to show sponsors that there will be content (the players) for their event and thus excitement by the fans awaiting to watch these players. I visualize the Promoter RAYA Office abuzz with staff watching these forums and making print-outs of the threads concerning these Qualifiers and incoming players so as to fax or deliver to would-be sponsors.

That is MY READ of this current measly info that's fed us! Where are the information about the ticket sales, the venue, other hotels available, etc? Where are the "I Manila am a Song" TV ads like we had in their previous events?

OK Old boys Club of WPA, its Continental Members BCA EPBF and * its franchise holder RAYA. Why not help fill in the blanks? I know that you're reading these threads.

Wondering about the *? Where is APBU the WPA Continental Member for Asia for which BSCP is under of? No Asian region Qualifiers? Why is APBU so quiet? Are they trying to slip out the back-door?

Well Eric, that's hmmmm for the day....... so I guess my answer to your question is still a MAYBE.

 

[bandido]

Sponsors make prize money possible. They do not make an event successful, unless they don't exist. As long as the money is there, I don't think the majority of the players care which sponsor is providing it. All they care about is that the money is there.

Mike

So back to square one and what all these postings are all about!

This World 10 Ball Championship, if we base our questioning from a similar event of the same magnitude (the WPC), cost close to US$1Million to produce or since it's an in-house production (no Matchroom to pay) around US$ 800,000.

1. As of this date and due to lack of info through TV and print media then we can say that there's NO Paid Sponsor/Advertiser.

2. Since there still is no, to this date 09 Sept, TV exposure whatsoever announcing the event then it'll be safe to say that the WTBC may only have limited TV Coverage. I'm being generous here.

3. I don't think that anyone in the BSCP/RAYA camp has the capacity to just fork out the above said amount out of the goodness of his heart.

So the question stands......Where is the M-O-N-E-Y??!!!!

Show me the MONEY!!

 

[jay helfert]

So back to square one and what all these postings are all about!

This World 10 Ball Championship, if we base our questioning from a similar event of the same magnitude (the WPC), cost close to US$1Million to produce or since it's an in-house production (no Matchroom to pay) around US$ 800,000.

1. As of this date and due to lack of info through TV and print media then we can say that there's NO Paid Sponsor/Advertiser.

2. Since there still is no, to this date 09 Sept, TV exposure whatsoever announcing the event then it'll be safe to say that the WTBC may only have limited TV Coverage. I'm being generous here.

3. I don't think that anyone in the BSCP/RAYA camp has the capacity to just fork out the above said amount out of the goodness of his heart.

So the question stands......Where is the M-O-N-E-Y??!!!!

Show me the MONEY!!

I'm beginning to think you have good instincts. This could turn out bad.

 

[berry]

Berry, you got a bet! No, I am not going to the eurotour weert (EDITED: Must be for about 25 euro, I am trying to see if I can find many people willing to bet on this, so you can't get for 50 euro... sorry... please tell me if the bet is still on)

Bet is still on!

 

[bandido]

Finally! A text message about tickets. Here's a link.
http://www.ticketworld.com.ph/events/default.asp?event_name=World Ten Ball Championship

Now I wonder what's the over/under as to how long this info installment is going to quiet the natives?

More info please! 20 days to go 'til Sept 29 and people still need to make travel arrangements!

<<<wondering if Ian has stocks that are rising in value with this measly info

 

[Marvel]

I'm with you Roy. If you get oversubscribed I'll have a piece of your action.

The $400,000 is only a part of it. With 'Mickey Mouse' TV production and poor penetration, not to mention the lack of home talent the thing is a Flying Pig which would cost closer to a million.
Why is this money not already in the WPA bank. Ian Anderson is putting his good reputation on the line with this one. The players have already put their money up for airfares.

Trying to take on Matchroom was a critical error and now they have to pay ESPN to take limited coverage.

Ten Ball - a joke supported by players who forget that it is television that drives their game and it has taken previous promoters a long time to educate the viewing public. So if nine ball is too easy then play 14.1 or even better try snooker if you want something more difficult.

Besides that, the W9BC is not dead in the water yet.

Tsik, tsik, tsik, Snoop Dogg. We can continue working and make the Ten-Ball the game in the television.

The simple truth is, that Ten-Ball is far better game for many various reasons, and it can be seen in TV also. It's just that the change takes some time and extra effort. In the end everything will be better. Of course all the pros want to play the game of professionals.


And what it comes to WTBC, it's a petty that there's so much negative attention and bad mouthing on this. We should work together for the benefit of the whole pool community. Not against each others and just spoil all the chances we have..

 

[memikey]

Ok Marvel.......I'll be first to contribute to a list of the positives....I've been to the PICC and it's a lovely venue. Who's next?

 

[bandido]

One-Side is a great after-hours action joint.