WPA Rules For Transgenders

I'd like to point out that Siming Chen, currently the highest performing female player in the entire world, is playing at the exact same level as Shawn Putnam & Rodrigo Geronimo and slightly better than Corey Deuel & Larry Nevel.

In the same vain as my previous post, the samples distributions for men's Fargo scores and women's Fargo score do not have much overlap and it is not correct to directly compare them. The Fargo data needs more female "hub" players that can link to two sample distributions together...players like Karren who routinely play in both men's and women's events.

Siming and Shawn have the same score, but they can't be compared directly. It's more fair to say that Siming performs in womens events like Shawn does in men's events. Just trying to clarify.
 
Fran,
If you had put in as much time on the table as Earl, do you really believe you could spin the cue ball around, force follow it from here to there, and draw it back like it was on fire, as well as he could?

Absolutely --- 100% positive --- and I'm not exaggerating.

I'm sure you know that there are a ton of men who can't hit the broad side of a barn with their cue ball, no less draw a shot half the table length, but we women who can play don't go around talking all the time about how inferior they are. But men for some reason, every so often, need to do this chest-pounding thing. I guess it makes them feel good.... Beats me.
 
Absolutely --- 100% positive --- and I'm not exaggerating.

I'm sure you know that there are a ton of men who can't hit the broad side of a barn with their cue ball, no less draw a shot half the table length, but we women who can play don't go around talking all the time about how inferior they are. But men for some reason, every so often, need to do this chest-pounding thing. I guess it makes them feel good.... Beats me.

Edit: Nothing to gain

JC
 
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You clearly haven't read the rules, nowhere does it mention that any surgical procedure is necessary to be allowed to compete.

I did read the rules and I didn't mean to imply that surgery was necessary. I was only trying to convey that some people who clearly identify themselves with the gender opposite of their anatomy do not want to alter their physical self in any way. This does not change how strongly they identify with their psychological gender. I also understand that it must be different for every single person. I don't pretend to understand exactly what you are going through our how you identify yourself. In order to have a real discussion about this, all transgendered people need to be brought into the conversation.
 
Fran,
If you had put in as much time on the table as Earl, do you really believe you could spin the cue ball around, force follow it from here to there, and draw it back like it was on fire, as well as he could?

A lot of people have the table time as Earl... they just don't have the talent. Just like you probably have the table time of Ga Young Kim but you'll never have her talent.

Men vs women has nothing to do with ability or strength, it's simply numbers. If there are 1,000,000 pool players, 900,000 are male. Of those million, 200 are worth a damn and 10 are elite. The odds of being elite are nearly impossible... but the odds of those elite being male is extremely likely.
 
My money is on any of these 5 girls vs Hunter Lombardo playing even:

Siming Chen, Chezka Centeno, Han Yu, Chieh Yu Chou, Ga Young Kim

Take your pick.
 
Fran,

If you're right -- then my theory would be way off.

I'm pretty surprised you think this way but it also makes me pause a bit because I have my own beliefs now about how good of a player I could have been if only... So I do give your opinion some credence.

The fact remains, I've only ever seen one woman cue the ball like a man and that was Balukus (never live) but I can't even say for certain if she could actually compete with the men in the stroking department.

Could it just be time on the table? There are men smaller in stature that have way more powerful strokes than their female counterparts. So I don't think it's just sheer strength. I think it's more of a combination of strength and quickness. This is why a guy like Pagulayan can stroke the ball so powerfully. I think he's actually an amazing athlete and if you were to test his strength and hand quickness against the female pros I think he would be off the charts.

This is what the women have to compete with against the men and I think it shows up on the table.
 
My money is on any of these 5 girls vs Hunter Lombardo playing even:

Siming Chen, Chezka Centeno, Han Yu, Chieh Yu Chou, Ga Young Kim

Take your pick.

My money is on Justin Bergman playing any of those girls even.
 
I think the "advantage" is strictly numbers based...there are simply more men that play and the larger the sample size the more likely it is to find someone who can play at the higher levels. This has nothing to do with innate ability, and more to do with statistics.

I'm not making any statements about the fundamental differences between men and women...I don't know enough to make such statements. What I do know is that there is some part of the explanation that must be attributed to the difference in the number of total female players vs total male players.

A group of 1,000 randomly selected pool players is likely to have more world beaters than a group of 100 randomly selected pool players, regardless of anything else.

Just something to keep in mind for this type of discussion.

Well first you said that the disparity between the skill of men and women was "strictly numbers based", and had "nothing to do with innate ability". This is a definitive statement about the fundamental differences between men and women, and you are saying there is absolutely no difference. But then you go on to say "I'm not making any statements about the fundamental differences between men and women...I don't know enough to make such statements" even after you just finished making a statement about the fundamental differences between men and women. You totally contradicted yourself. Pick one. Which do you really believe because you obviously can't believe two totally opposite things even though that is exactly what you stated.

Your point about there being more men than women that play and therefore it is more likely that there are better men players is a valid one. Can't dispute that "a group of 1,000 randomly selected pool players is likely to have more world beaters than a group of 100 randomly selected pool players, regardless of anything else." But at various points over time the best player from the group of 100 is going to be better than the best player from the group of 1000 (in this example it would be about a 10% chance that the best player from the two groups came from the group of 100, and over time it would be about 10% of the time that the best current player out of the two groups was coming from the group of 100). And if men outnumbered women 10 to 1 in pool it would also be about 10% of the time that the current best player on earth at that moment was a woman if men and women were truly equal. If men and women were truly biologically equal for pool that point (where the best player on earth at that moment was a woman) would have already happened, and many times. Yet it never has happened, and hasn't even gotten close.

The real question is if you took 100 random males, and 100 random females, and gave them all the same pool instruction and they all practiced the same 8 hours a day for two years, and they all gambled or did not gamble the exact same amount, and everything else absolutely identical, would there be any differences in the abilities between the two groups? If men and women are truly born equal then there would be no differences whatsoever. Out of those 200 players it would be exactly equally likely that the very best player among them would be either male or female. Their ranking by sex would be a random distribution as well, roughly looking something like top player is female, second best is male, third best is female, fourth best is male, fifth best is female, sixth best is male, seventh best is female and so on alternating back and forth all the way down to to the last place 200th best.

But anybody who is being honest with themselves instead of being blinded by their bias knows that is not even remotely close to how it would look. It would look about like what we see in the real world today. The very best woman out of the 200 people would probably be ranked like 15th. The bottom half of the field would be far more women than men. And the only explanation for this is because of our biological differences that we are born with and where men have the advantage, and most likely it is both the physical and and the mental differences that cause the separation but there is some room for debate on what percentage of the male superiority in pool is from the physical and what percentage is from the mental. There isn't really any room for debate on whether there is a biological born advantage though. The evidence for that far surpasses overwhelming and it takes nothing short of massive bias to ignore that evidence. We have to be careful to always see things for the way they really are, even when we don't like it, instead of seeing things the way we wish they were even though it isn't the truth or the reality. Forget about other people...it is being honest with ourselves that is often the hardest by far.
 
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A lot of people have the table time as Earl... they just don't have the talent. Just like you probably have the table time of Ga Young Kim but you'll never have her talent.

Men vs women has nothing to do with ability or strength, it's simply numbers. If there are 1,000,000 pool players, 900,000 are male. Of those million, 200 are worth a damn and 10 are elite. The odds of being elite are nearly impossible... but the odds of those elite being male is extremely likely.

We are just exchanging opinions here.

I understand the numbers view and women overall would certainly be better if more of them played because it would raise the competition level. A rises tide lifts all boats sort of thing.

I just can't understand how pool players can so easily dismiss what they see on the table in regards to player's stroking abilities. Is it so far fetched to believe that men(on average) would possess just a hair more strength, quickness, and coordination in their arms and hands than women do? When you consider the absolute FACT that these attributes are clearly visible in the more athletic sports.

Is it also possible that these attributes are more useful in pool than most believe?

I can remember when the steroids in baseball thing first happened and my initial thought was -- how in the world would steroids help someone hit a ball better and further? Boy was I naïve. More strength doesn't just give you more power but it can also give you more coordination. Just out of hand dismissing this for pool is wishful thinking.


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Me and GYK having the same amount of table time is laughable too. There's not too many people I would be afraid of playing that are in the same ballpark as me when it comes to table time.
 
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Fran,

If you're right -- then my theory would be way off.

I'm pretty surprised you think this way but it also makes me pause a bit because I have my own beliefs now about how good of a player I could have been if only... So I do give your opinion some credence.

The fact remains, I've only ever seen one woman cue the ball like a man and that was Balukus (never live) but I can't even say for certain if she could actually compete with the men in the stroking department.

Could it just be time on the table? There are men smaller in stature that have way more powerful strokes than their female counterparts. So I don't think it's just sheer strength. I think it's more of a combination of strength and quickness. This is why a guy like Pagulayan can stroke the ball so powerfully. I think he's actually an amazing athlete and if you were to test his strength and hand quickness against the female pros I think he would be off the charts.

This is what the women have to compete with against the men and I think it shows up on the table.


Sure, I believe there are some athletes more gifted than others but when it comes to pool, I don't think that it's a gender thing. Seriously. If there's any one pro player who's game I relate to the most, it's Earl's. I understand his game because I play a similar game. The only difference is that I've put in a smidgen of the time he has. But nonetheless, I can still run out and spin the heck out of the cue ball.

First, you probably need at least some talent, but then desire has a whole lot to do with how far you take it. I always struggled with my conscience. So maybe that doesn't make me a candidate for the hall of fame, but I can sleep at night knowing that I took care of what I had to do in my life. Everyone's different.
 
If there was a way to show just a pool stick, cue ball and balls on a video of someone running out, removing image the player --- I could tell you 99.62% of the time the born sex of the person playing.
 
Is it so far fetched to believe that men(on average) would possess just a hair more strength, quickness, and coordination in their arms and hands than women do? When you consider the absolute FACT that these attributes are clearly visible in the more athletic sports.

Is it also possible that these attributes are more useful in pool than most believe?

I can remember when the steroids in baseball thing first happened and my initial thought was -- how in the world would steroids help some hit a ball better and further? Boy was I naïve. More strength doesn't just give you more power but it can also give you more coordination. Just out of hand dismissing this for pool is wishful thinking.

It's not far fetched to believe men on average would have more strength. If only that really mattered really mattered in anything other than a power break. Jeremy Sossei has a pretty good stroke and his arms look as thick and muscular as my 7 year old daughters. The best exercise you could do to improve your pool game is probably yoga.

Most baseball players, or athletes in general, take steroids to recover from injury faster. But yes, they're also used to bulk up and add strength. And really? You couldn't figure out why more strength would help someone hit a ball further... Really?
 
Oh and, yes I played before, but it was for recreation mainly, I was never a good enough player to cash in any tournament nor could I win gambling against other C players unless I was given weight. My real passion for pool didn't begin until I was 4 years into the process of transitioning and that was near the end of 2011 by that time. I don't think I became a low B player until around the 3rd quarter of 2013. And I presently consider myself to be an average B player.

When you lost your van playing pool, did you have a real passion for pool then or was that just recreational play?
 
If there was a way to show just a pool stick, cue ball and balls on a video of someone running out, removing image the player --- I could tell you 99.62% of the time the born sex of the person playing.

If you had video as described of professional players, you'd probably be right because of statistics. Statistically very few humans will play that speed and in a game with a 9:1 (my guess) ratio of men to women, the stats say a man will become elite. Same could be said for someone with natural red hair. Odds are, they will not become an elite pool player either simply because of the numbers. Doesn't mean they won't but the numbers are against them. I can really only think of one redhead who's very good and he's far from elite.

However, if the videos were 100 different C players, you would have a real hard time picking 99 of them correctly.
 
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Well first you said that the disparity between the skill of men and women was "strictly numbers based", and had "nothing to do with innate ability". This is a definitive statement about the fundamental differences between men and women, and you are saying there is absolutely no difference. But then you go on to say "I'm not making any statements about the fundamental differences between men and women...I don't know enough to make such statements" even after you just finished making a statement about the fundamental differences between men and women. You totally contradicted yourself. Pick one. Which do you really believe because you obviously can't believe two totally opposite things even though that is exactly what you stated.
.

My apologies, the use of the word "strictly" was not correct at all and totally didn't communicate my point. It should have said "some portion is numbers based" or something along those lines. I definitely don't mean to imply that there is no fundamental difference; I would bet that most likely there is. The point is that the disparity between men and women can't be explained away by just saying that men are fundamentally better. There is some portion of the disparity that is explained by the pure volume of players in each sex.

You're follow on question about the 100 random men and women is more in line with how I think about it.
 
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