WPBA Viejas Vehemence

Mark, I am very familiar with the WPBA website and how it is maintained. I was hired to maintain their coverage of the BCA Pro Event years ago and was also lightly involved in making changes to it last year.

If you remember, most of the updates that took place on their site were done with pdf files, which made it difficult for the end user. But Anne had nothing to do with the built in Content Management System that their hosting company has set up for them.

Yes, I completely understand what is involved in maintaining a website and I know the problems that the WPBA has with their website. A big part of maintaining a website is having someone who has the time and knowledge of that website to make the changes. When the person who was in charge of maintaining the site leaves, then you have to find someone who can do that job. If you don't find someone, then it isn't that you don't have the ability to maintain it. It is more that you haven't found someone to do it. It is easy to lay the blame at someone else's feet, but that isn't the case here. No one is blocking the WPBA's access to maintain their site. They simply don't have someone who knows how to do it or has the time to do it.

Mark, you and I have sat down many times and discussed the issues that plague the pool world. We don't always agree, but I do value your opinions. I think what we have here is a case of each of us hearing different sides of the story. And the truth is probably in the middle somewhere. One big difference that I see is that I am hearing what I hear from multiple sources and it sounds like you are hearing from one. If even half of the stories that I have heard from these multiple sources is true, then the tour has a serious problem on their hands.

What I do know is that four people busted their asses last year to make sure the tour ran. They handled all of the things that Peg and Jay used to get paid to do and they did it in their spare time. These four people were not doing this because they wanted things ran their way. They did this out of a heartfelt desire to see the tour succeed as best it could. There was no "I/Me" involved when they did this work. They simply buckled down and did it. Now two of those people are gone and they both cite the same reasons for leaving.

The board has known for quite some time that their existing model was doomed to eventual failure and John has certainly inherited a major mess. I do think that John has the best of intentions in what he is trying to do. I simply question the way he is going about doing it. The WPBA is owned by the players and it is ran by the board of directors. Seven equal votes. There are bylaws in place that govern how the board makes decisions and gets things done. Throwing those bylaws out the window and making your own decisions without discussing it with the all of the board is not the way to get things done. If the board disagrees with the way you want to do things, then you were outvoted and you move on.

As far as intentions go, I told Charlie Williams almost ten years ago that I respected what he was trying to do in forming the UPA. I just disagreed with the way he was going about doing it. I thought the players needed a voice in their game and I still do. I told him that I hoped I was wrong and that if I was, I would be the first one to stand up and congratulate him on the great job he did. You and I have both talked about how that one worked out.

I think John has some very valuable ideas and contacts that he can bring to the table. But the WPBA is not a dictatorship. Everything has to be voted on and handled through the proper channels. All board members are equal and all players are equal. The #1 player has the same voting power as the #48 player and the president has the same voting power as the secretary.

You own the BCA Pool Leagues and I own AzBilliards. Both of those entities succeed or fail based on our decisions. If you decide to put a rule in affect that forces all players to wear short skirts and heels when they play, then they have to do that. If I decide that I am going to fill the site with porn ads, then porn ads it is. But we do not have Boards of Directors to listen to our ideas and ask us what we are smoking. The WPBA does. And they do for a reason. Those are called "checks and balances". If someone doesn't like operating under those "checks and balances", then they have a problem.

I hope that the best possible decision is made tomorrow at the players meeting. I hope the players think the decision through and talk to as many people as possible before they make any decisions. If John is gone, then I hope they have a plan. If he stays, then I hope they all find a way to work together for the betterment of the tour. And either way, I hope they do things the way their bylaws require that they are done.

Mike

Mike,

I respect your opinions and insight. However, there are certain women that would rather see Rousseau fail and the WPBA suffer, than to see him succeed. Their feelings were hurt and they are doing about everything they can discreetly do to cause distractions and grief.

Remember when I bought the BCA Pool League? Remember all the tacky bullshit things the detractors did and said? Where are they now? They were not good for pool then and they are not good for pool now. All they did was to divide and industry and cause hard feelings.

The same will happen to some of these women. They are small minded and selfish. They are a team player when THEIR team is winning. I have been told that Rousseau did not have access to the website. There is obviously a problem since he has not posted on the 'message from the president'. The brackets took forever to get up. And the Brunswick logo is still on the site.

That is NOT how you run a website. There have been many complaints about the WPBA site. It was not laid out very well. As you might remember, it went down right before the RTC in LA. a few weeks ago and was finally up and running again. BUT there is a problem that still exists.

You know much more than I do about web managemnet - but it needs to be user friendly for both the public audience AND those that need to be able to update. Anne used to be able to do updates - what changed that would not allow the WPBA board access?

If you want to discuss this more, I don't think the AZ forums is the place.

I just think the press might be aggravated because of the 'rumor' about posting. I have no idea if this is true or not. BUT I do believe there was a similar ban on posting in the past. How often did things happen and there was very little information.

The Ellerby - Chen elbow incident about 2 years ago comes to mind. As does the last election in Lincoln City.

I still think John can make things happen - but if he is so busy putting how fires, how can he build a new foundation? I know - I had to do it and it cost me at LEAST a year or two in our league development.

Mark Griffin



kwpsi a
 
Documentary...

I say, grab a coupla cameras, follow Rousseau and the gang around for the next six months, because it's seems like there are going to be some sharp turns ahead for the whole cast of characters in this drama.

I hope and pray it's all for the best...

Daniel
:thumbup:
 
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all I know is I have been at Viejas for the last 2 days and this is being talked about constantly, and when some people found out this "INSIDE" information was leaked to the forums they were not happy.

The question of does information that is talked about in a private players meeting belong public is up for debate.
 
Documentary...

I just think that a doc would be a great idea. The camera will keep people honest and anyone making fools of themselves will not be able to take it back.
 
all I know is I have been at Viejas for the last 2 days and this is being talked about constantly, and when some people found out this "INSIDE" information was leaked to the forums they were not happy.

The question of does information that is talked about in a private players meeting belong public is up for debate.

Not necessarily but if it is made public then the best course is to ignore it.

Don't confirm or deny and that leaves people guessing.

Works great for Apple.
 
It's very sad to see a tour that I have followed for years reach this point. And while I'm sure the economy has been a huge factor, my biggest complaint with the WPBA over the years has been a lack of promotion.

The last two times the tour had stops here, there was virtually no advanced publicity outside of the WPBA website and the forums like this. As a result, there was a very limited number of people who even knew the tour was here. The local APA provided players to perform shot clock services and other support functions, so there were a few league players who knew about it, and made some time to come out. But a metro area of over a million people should be able to provide more than a hundred or so people who want to fill the stands.

Empty stands do not attract sponsorship.

Steve

I'm late to reading this thread but better late then never! :cool:

It seems to me that there is a certain naivete when it comes to promoting pool.

Almost a year ago I opened a thread asking why the WPBA was hosting the 1st Annual Colorado Classic in Ignacio. Ignacio is a small town with a population of about 750 people and is located about 250 miles from Denver.

I had wondered if it didn't make more sense to have the tournament in Denver, which has a population of 2 million people to draw pool-playing fans from. The Colorado Classic was poorly promoted, was located in a remote location, and many fans had to travel 25 miles away to Durango for lodging. As you said, "empty stands do not attract sponsorship."

I think the WPBA could benefit from having new blood on the board of directors, especially those who may have a business-related background. Although the pool players on the board mean well, it does take a certain amount of sophistication to run the WPBA as a business and not just as a sport.
 
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I'm late to reading this thread but better late then never! :cool:

It seems to me that there is a certain naivete when it comes to promoting pool.

Almost a year ago I opened a thread asking why the WPBA was hosting the 1st Annual Colorado Classic in Ignacio. Ignacio is a small town with a population of about 750 people and is located about 250 miles from Denver.

I had wondered if it didn't make more sense to have the tournament in Denver, which has a population of 2 million people to draw pool-playing fans from. The Colorado Classic was poorly promoted, was located in a remote location, and many fans had to travel 25 miles away to Durango for lodging. As you said, "empty stands do not attract sponsorship."

I think the WPBA could benefit from having new blood on the board of directors, especially those who may have a business-related background. Although the pool players on the board mean well, it does take a certain amount of sophistication to run the WPBA as a business and not just as a sport.

If you look into why WPBA events are held in out of the way places it is usually because there is an Indian casino there who posts the hefty site fee that is required to have a WPBA event.

Everyone would love for them to hold events in L.A., New York, Chicago, Vegas, or any other large easily accessible area. Problem is no one in those area's will put up the money.
 
Casinos use the WPBA tournaments to draw fans in and hopefully spend money in their casinos. The WPBA has to go where the casinos are interested in paying for the event. I am sure that if a casino in Denver were interested in the tour, the tour would be all for going there.

Mike

I'm late to reading this thread but better late then never! :cool:

It seems to me that there is a certain naivete when it comes to promoting pool.

Almost a year ago I opened a thread asking why the WPBA was hosting the 1st Annual Colorado Classic in Ignacio. Ignacio is a small town with a population of about 750 people and is located about 250 miles from Denver.

I had wondered if it didn't make more sense to have the tournament in Denver, which has a population of 2 million people to draw pool-playing fans from. The Colorado Classic was poorly promoted, was located in a remote location, and many fans had to travel 25 miles away to Durango for lodging. As you said, "empty stands do not attract sponsorship."

I think the WPBA could benefit from having new blood on the board of directors, especially those who may have a business-related background. Although the pool players on the board mean well, it does take a certain amount of sophistication to run the WPBA as a business and not just as a sport.
 
If you look into why WPBA events are held in out of the way places it is usually because there is an Indian casino there who posts the hefty site fee that is required to have a WPBA event.

Everyone would love for them to hold events in L.A., New York, Chicago, Vegas, or any other large easily accessible area. Problem is no one in those area's will put up the money.

How much are the hefty site fees required to host a WPBA event? The hefty site fees may be a big part of the problem. It's time for the WPBA to reduce their site fees and have the events in a major metropolis.

It doesn't make much sense for fans to travel to remote locations just so the WPBA can get a hefty site fee. It's worth repeating again: "Empty stands do not attract sponsorship."
 
I don't want to get too specific about the site fees, but remember that those site fees pretty much pay for the television production.

Without those fees, they lose TV.

Mike
 
In reading over my Ignacio thread from a year ago, Anne mentioned that "Our production costs for 25 hours of original programming this year run well over $400,000."

That means that the site fees, entrance fees and whatever else, needs to be at least $400,000 just to break even.

With a business model like this, it's no wonder that the WPBA is struggling. It might be time to reevaluate the business model.


Yep, just book a Convention Center or large Ballroom/Party room in a large market area. Forget about ESPN and their crappy coverage of a truly great tour and get the damn thing live-streamed. Get the local poolhalls involved for advertisement and get them to kick-in some $$$ for payouts. Go to the nearby eating establishments and ask for smaller donations for a shot at having their name on a banner. I do not know how the WPBA handles entry fees, but I'm sure some "adjustments" could be made to that area also. Bottom line though has got to be that the ladies should NEVER expect to make a living at playing in WPBA events, and that whatever $$$ they make for doing so should just be looked at as an opportunity to make some spare money doing something they love. Hell, it's hard enough for a man to make a living at pool (not being disparaging to the women, just that men's pool draws more overall interest as far as professional pool goes).

In reality there are no quick fixes, and as far as I can see, if one or more large sponsors do not come up with a LOT of money soon, the WPBA, with all its internal problems, may self-destruct.

Maniac
 
Yep, just book a Convention Center or large Ballroom/Party room in a large market area. Forget about ESPN and their crappy coverage of a truly great tour and get the damn thing live-streamed. Get the local poolhalls involved for advertisement and get them to kick-in some $$$ for payouts. Go to the nearby eating establishments and ask for smaller donations for a shot at having their name on a banner. I do not know how the WPBA handles entry fees, but I'm sure some "adjustments" could be made to that area also. Bottom line though has got to be that the ladies should NEVER expect to make a living at playing in WPBA events, and that whatever $$$ they make for doing so should just be looked at as an opportunity to make some spare money doing something they love. Hell, it's hard enough for a man to make a living at pool (not being disparaging to the women, just that men's pool draws more overall interest as far as professional pool goes).

In reality there are no quick fixes, and as far as I can see, if one or more large sponsors do not come up with a LOT of money soon, the WPBA, with all its internal problems, may self-destruct.

Maniac

Your comments are very similar to what I was thinking.

As part of overhauling the business model, the WPBA should use ESPN to televise one or two premier events a year in a major city. For the other events, people like JCIN or Bigtruck could be hired to stream in High Definition for much less than what it would cost to hire ESPN to do it.
 
Casinos use the WPBA tournaments to draw fans in and hopefully spend money in their casinos. The WPBA has to go where the casinos are interested in paying for the event. I am sure that if a casino in Denver were interested in the tour, the tour would be all for going there.

Mike


They also get their name mentioned on TV over and over sometimes for years given ESPN Classic. That is pretty good advertising and more valuable than what they pay imho.
 
One thing to keep in mind also when you want us to come to a metropolis to play in an event....the cost of getting there and staying there. We had an event in NYC, I only played in it once. The hotel room was about the size of my bathroom and upwards of $200 a night....multiply that by five nights and the fact that we get a discounted rate on rooms and we are supposed to stay at the host hotel. Not to mention the $30-$60 to park the car per day, the higher cost of food, etc. Most of the girls pay their own expenses on top of a $500 entry fee.

The Indian casinos have been good to us and in the places that had multiple year contracts, the attendance grew. Viejas is one of them that has a very loyal crowd over the years. I agree that the places are out of the way, but like someone else mentioned, they put up a great deal of money.

There is also an argument to whether people in a big city would want to come watch more than people in the middle of nowhere? There are more things to do in a big city and going to a pool tournament might be at the bottom of the list. People that come to the out of the way places are there to watch pool and are usually die hard fans that don't miss a session.

I don't claim to know the answers to all of the problems. But I do know that it would be a bad situation to hold a tournament where the players couldn't even afford to go to the tournament.

There is an event in a big city this year....Atlanta. It also has an amateur event along with it. That will help with spectators as it has in other venues. I'm curious to see how many people from Atlanta that are not participating in the amateur event come to watch.

Sarah
 
There is an event in a big city this year....Atlanta. It also has an amateur event along with it. That will help with spectators as it has in other venues. I'm curious to see how many people from Atlanta that are not participating in the amateur event come to watch.

Sarah

That all depends on how many of the women follow the WPBA dress code and how many break it. Of course some shouldn't be allowed to break it. :)
 
One thing to keep in mind also when you want us to come to a metropolis to play in an event....the cost of getting there and staying there. We had an event in NYC, I only played in it once. The hotel room was about the size of my bathroom and upwards of $200 a night....multiply that by five nights and the fact that we get a discounted rate on rooms and we are supposed to stay at the host hotel. Not to mention the $30-$60 to park the car per day, the higher cost of food, etc. Most of the girls pay their own expenses on top of a $500 entry fee.

The Indian casinos have been good to us and in the places that had multiple year contracts, the attendance grew. Viejas is one of them that has a very loyal crowd over the years. I agree that the places are out of the way, but like someone else mentioned, they put up a great deal of money.

There is also an argument to whether people in a big city would want to come watch more than people in the middle of nowhere? There are more things to do in a big city and going to a pool tournament might be at the bottom of the list. People that come to the out of the way places are there to watch pool and are usually die hard fans that don't miss a session.

I don't claim to know the answers to all of the problems. But I do know that it would be a bad situation to hold a tournament where the players couldn't even afford to go to the tournament.

There is an event in a big city this year....Atlanta. It also has an amateur event along with it. That will help with spectators as it has in other venues. I'm curious to see how many people from Atlanta that are not participating in the amateur event come to watch.

Sarah

Excellent point: If the WPBA wants more players and fans to attend, then it needs to ensure that the entry fees, room rates, parking and food are more affordable. :rolleyes:

I don't know what all of the answers are either but asking players and fans to travel to remote locations is hardly the solution. That just increases the cost to everyone.

Again, empty stands do not attract sponsors. The WPBA needs to completely reevaluate it's business model.
 
I don't want to get too specific about the site fees, but remember that those site fees pretty much pay for the television production.

Without those fees, they lose TV.

Mike

And that would be a good thing IMO. Johnnyt
 
IMHO, the TV contract is the key to growth. Without it, you get no sponsors, whether the stands are full or empty.

Sponsors make the world go round, but the current set of WPBA sponsors (APA included) do very little for the growth of the tour itself. They provide some money, and in return they get some advertising. Industry sponsors are one thing, and as long as you're just holding a pool tournament that's all you'll get.

The WPBA needs to take a cue (no pun intended) from the PGA or the LPGA. There's nothing special about golf, it's a recreational sport (just like pool) that doesn't have professional teams (just like pool). The crowd has to be quiet during each shot (just like pool). More people in this country (and probably most others) play pool than play golf, so why are the professional golf tours so successful? Title sponsors, that's why.

Who sponsors golf? Golf does have its industry sponsors, but the really big sponsorship dollars come from title sponsorship of each tournament, and those sponsors are NOT industry sponsors. They are auto manufacturers, large financial institutions, and huge insurance companies, to name a few. They are companies that have extremely large advertising budgets, and companies for which A POSITIVE PUBLIC IMAGE IS VERY IMPORTANT. They have a vested interest in making THEIR event a success, so they provide staff to help pull it off. They actively promote THEIR event. Through all of this, they are contributing to the sport, rather than simply contributing advertising dollars to a tour.

So how do the PGA and LPGA get title sponsors (huge corporations) for their tour stops? By teaming with charities, that's how, and by having the people employed within those charities contact and deal with potential sponsors.

I firmly believe that NO professional billiards tour, men, women, or otherwise, can truly flourish without huge sponsorship dollars coming from outside the industry. You can't get the dollars without charities and TV contracts. The WPBA has the TV contract - they should be teaming with charities to set up their tour stops and attract title sponsors. It's not something that just magically happens - it's full-time work for someone. It will take dedication from the players and other tour insiders, but maybe they could get a couple of tour stops this year or next, and build upon that to attract more sponsors in future years. Who knows? Eventually, being a professional pool player might be something these ladies could do AS A FULL-TIME PROFESSION. Wouldn't that be nice?
 
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